@meagloth I would never ever tell a Scot that Scottish men wear skirts. And I am a very overly large fellow. A kilt is not a skirt. Mind you, perhaps they should loosen up a tad. They must be looking forward to getting a new King at some point though, then they don't need to wear undies.
Well, some people do judge women harshly for dressing to 'forward', but I think that's silly. And am usually vocal about telling anyone so judgmental that its silly. The funny part being that I'm really a giant prude, I just don't think it's right to hold others to the standard I wish to hold myself to.
I would say men can get judged just as harshly if they fall under certain headings. Men that dress outside 'accepted norms' are pretty harshly treated by society. IE people that dress 'Goth', Bikers (less so if they have a patch I'd wager...), people in ethnic clothings (even if you're dressed like an urban black, this will get you judged harshly in MANY areas of North America), and of course crossdressers/trans people. Dressing really nerdy most boys figure out quickly will get them picked on pretty badly. Men are more likely to be physically assaulted remember vs women, so men going outside societal norms usually need to be a bit cautious too.
I do agree that not everyone means much by what they wear, but that's only true because most people dress exclusively to fit in I would argue, so of course their choices mean nothing. They'd wear paper bags on their head if other people did it first.
@DreadKhan: Yes, some clothing choices by men are judged harshly. My point was that men can also make clothing choices that virtually no one will judge or even notice. Having that option is a privilege.
@DreadKhan: Yes, some clothing choices by men are judged harshly. My point was that men can also make clothing choices that virtually no one will judge or even notice. Having that option is a privilege.
That's not true though, unless you think wearing exactly what society expects is having a privilege. Men have EXTREME limitations on what we can acceptably wear in North America at least; No skirts, no dresses, no robes unless you're a religious figure, pants can't be too high (or you're a dork), pants can't be too low (or you'll start getting judged harshly the majority), can't wear certain colours (men aren't supposed to wear 'girly' colours, women are free to wear whatever colour, though red has associations, so does black to a lesser extent), and don't get me started on shoes or any kind of ornamentation. Men will stand out for wearing a ring or two, the only 'ignored' male accessory is the wrist-watch, which is less needed than ever anyways. Men's business attire hasn't changed substantially in over a hundred years. What qualifies as a change for men would be 'we use a slightly different blend to weave your suit jacket', or you buy a new tie. Heck, you can even wear a bow-tie still. People will think you're odd if you aren't comfortable with it though.
Women are allowed to express themselves a bit with fashion, men are expected to STRICTLY conform, and the more 'dressy', the more men are expected to conform. Every man at a black tie event is dressed pretty much identically; the women all get to wear a unique (...unless some ***** steals their outfit! ) outfit. They can wear a longish dress, a shortish dress, pattern, solid colour, etc. Jewelry is also much more loosely restricted. They can use a purse or not, men shouldn't even be carrying a briefcase at a formal event. Heck, women can wear basic high heels, 3 or 4 inch stilletos, platforms, and all can qualify as formal. Men have way less options in terms of dress footwear, unless you're manly/crazy enough to wear polished boots.
Now, I WOULD agree that women are unfairly pressured to expend far more resources on appearances than men are, but they also get more freedom in how those resources are allocated.
Men have the privilege of not standing out if they strictly conform, but even that is only true if that man doesn't stick out physically despite not dressing abnormally. If you're tall, fat, big boned, or super svelte all of this will make a difference in how much a man ends up being noticed anyways, in the same way women get noticed. Men can be pretty creepy about checking out other dudes, even straight men.
That's not true though, unless you think wearing exactly what society expects is having a privilege.
I think that having the option to wear exactly what society expects is having a privilege. The thing is, I don't care about clothes very much (although I respect that you do) so having the option to ignore them and have them ignored seems like a big advantage to me. If I was more passionate about sartorial expression, then the prescribed uniformity of men's clothing might seem like a worse deal.
Mostly, I agree with what you're saying. Gender norms are ridiculous in every direction, and no one should be made bad for wearing whatever they want (short of like... swastikas and fedoras).
Men's clothing is a bit of a chicken and egg problem. On the one hand, you can basically go into a store and buy whatever(within reason) and no one is going judge you. On the other hand that may be because there's basically no variety in men's clothes. Why isn't there variety in men's clothes? Maybe it's because men don't care anyway; I know I don't. I wear the basically same clothes every day. But why wouldn't men care? A logical assumption would be because we didn't have any options to begin with.
See what I mean?
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Women's clothing is probably better left to the women. I have a lot of thinks on this subject but as a non-woman I can't really say them without putting words in someone's mouth. If any women have their own words or thinks I'd be interested, but I'll try and shut up for now, after I say one more thing:
The whole thing boils down to an issue of conformity and fitting in(not a small issue in highschool) and what bothers me about all this is when I see people, admittedly usually girls, dressing a certain way that I don't think they would dress, all other variable removed, like leggings or very short shorts, to try and fit in or impress someone. (And Here I go putting words in mouths again) And that bothers me. People should not have to do things they're uncomfortable with to please someone else, especially when that someone else is some unpredictable, half-imagined social machine. And it's all very complicated, wrapped in layers of psychology, emotions, and advertising. It seems as though a lot of people(women) just wear what's "in" because it's "in", without so much as a thought as to weather they actually think it looks good. It's conscious and normal for them, but for me the idea that what some magazine or website says is popular should determine weather or not something pleases me is absurd. I pick what I like, thank you very much! Or as close as I can realisticly get to it. My phone has more control over my thoughts than my frontal lobe does.
@joluv has the possibility occurred to you that your fashion choices may have more significance than you realize? First impressions aren't a tiny matter with some people, and its not exactly a coincidence that new lawyers at big firms are given assigned first to spend a fair bit of money on good shoes, I'm referring to men btw. Women jurors respect a better dressed lawyer, and women notices shoes.
But still, even for non-lawyers, everyone puts people into categories based on what you wear, men aren't exempt from this. Try wearing something still socially acceptable but different from what you'd normally wear... IE if you normally just wear a graphic tee, try a long sleeve buttoned shirt, preferably tucked in. Try wearing semi-dress shoes vs dirty-ass running shoes, people do tend to see you differently. Not everyone likes a more put together look though! Most younger people prefer a 'slacker' look, and most older people tend to like a more clean cut look.
@meagloth I could be wrong I guess, but I strongly suspect its less 'chicken and egg', and more 'men have yet to take the steps women have in questioning their gender roles and norms', most likely because men have historically had it better than women in the West. I think it's more of a chicken issue I guess? When it comes to fashion, most men are a bit cowardly. Men allow their fashion norms to be dictated to them in a most tyrannical fashion, and so we're stuck with the exact same formal wear indefinately. Except for zoot suits for 1 year iirc.
Well, I don't think its anyone's place to order someone to dress a certain way, other than formal dress codes. I do think everyone is free to have an opinion, but sharing it is not always wise, and rarely a necessity, and trying to force opinions is where you get the issues of 'fitting in while in school'. I never was someone that 'fit in', but I was also big enough and weird enough that I was rarely targeted. I was never very strong, but size itself affects people I suppose. So while I often dressed pretty normally, at times I definitely went out on a limb. Even for me though, I was more weird in behaviour than how I dressed, so there you go. These days, I mostly dress on the 'mildly dorky' side, though if I didn't have my physical appearance I'd probably look way dorkier. I like to think I look old-fashioned though, even with the odd 'clearly modern' bit of clothing. I do tend to wear tighter shirts than most people, but they usually are tight around the chest, rather than stomach, so that looks a bit better at least. My habit of wearing shirts unbuttoned 1 button too far though might cross some lines of good taste, to say nothing of when I go all the way to two too many. I don't do that much anymore, I'm not quite skinny enough anymore, but it was awesome when I could do it.
As someone who has played football (and thus worn very good quality tights with plenty of stretch/support), I can say that yoga pants and tights are probably a fair bit more comfy than you think. I'm almost certain a great many girls/women are HAPPY to be able to wear tights as clothes these days. The ones screwed over are probably girls that are both overweight and poor; they have a hell of a time finding clothes that actually work for their body type, which makes them stick out way more than they would. As I mentioned before, badly made tights on an overweight person are a really ugly sight. Also, girls today can totally rock jeans and be 'in style', jeans are totally acceptable still among even pretty stylish women.
joluv has the possibility occurred to you that your fashion choices may have more significance than you realize? First impressions aren't a tiny matter with some people, and its not exactly a coincidence that new lawyers at big firms are given assigned first to spend a fair bit of money on good shoes, I'm referring to men btw. Women jurors respect a better dressed lawyer, and women notices shoes.
First impressions also matter in interviews, That's why I got my suit earlier than I needed to, It meant I could take the time and get one that fit properly and looked great on me (thank you debenhams) rather than one that was sort of my size but looked sloppy. I also got a waistcoat with it so I can change my look a bit more than different shirt and tie.
But still, even for non-lawyers, everyone puts people into categories based on what you wear, men aren't exempt from this. Try wearing something still socially acceptable but different from what you'd normally wear... IE if you normally just wear a graphic tee, try a long sleeve buttoned shirt, preferably tucked in. Try wearing semi-dress shoes vs dirty-ass running shoes, people do tend to see you differently. Not everyone likes a more put together look though! Most younger people prefer a 'slacker' look, and most older people tend to like a more clean cut look.
Is that a formal shirt or a casual shirt? I'd never dream of wearing a formal shirt untucked whatever it was paired with but I'd also be very hesitant to tuck in a casual shirt, most casual shirts that I've worn are a bit too short to tuck anyway. I think a casual shirt looks better untucked and can even get away with not being ironed depending on the shirt obviously (though that could be the student in me talking) it looks smarter than just a polo shirt or graphic tee but still gives a relaxed feeling.
meagloth I could be wrong I guess, but I strongly suspect its less 'chicken and egg', and more 'men have yet to take the steps women have in questioning their gender roles and norms', most likely because men have historically had it better than women in the West. I think it's more of a chicken issue I guess? When it comes to fashion, most men are a bit cowardly. Men allow their fashion norms to be dictated to them in a most tyrannical fashion, and so we're stuck with the exact same formal wear indefinately. Except for zoot suits for 1 year iirc.
Tbh female formal fashion isn't that much more diverse than the male side of it, in a courthouse sort of environment they're in fairly similar stuff to the men and when at an upper class party they're expected to wear a gown of some kind but that doesn't afford much more diversity than a man. sure they're allowed flamboyant colours and can change the style and cut of the dress but a bloke can have a different colour and style of suit too.
Well, I don't think its anyone's place to order someone to dress a certain way, other than formal dress codes. I do think everyone is free to have an opinion, but sharing it is not always wise, and rarely a necessity, and trying to force opinions is where you get the issues of 'fitting in while in school'. I never was someone that 'fit in', but I was also big enough and weird enough that I was rarely targeted. I was never very strong, but size itself affects people I suppose.
Of course it's not reasonable to tell someone how they can dress (aside from formal and fancy dress) but it's hard for people not to be influenced by the clothes others are wearing due to social pressures, everyone should be free to wear what they want (within reason, I'm guessing streaking is off the table). I never really fit in in school either and when not in uniform my fashion sense was terrible because I couldn't care less (I wore what was comfortable and practical). I did get bullied a bit but thankfully not too badly that I'm emotionally scarred (lost a few fights too).
So while I often dressed pretty normally, at times I definitely went out on a limb. Even for me though, I was more weird in behaviour than how I dressed, so there you go. These days, I mostly dress on the 'mildly dorky' side, though if I didn't have my physical appearance I'd probably look way dorkier. I like to think I look old-fashioned though, even with the odd 'clearly modern' bit of clothing. I do tend to wear tighter shirts than most people, but they usually are tight around the chest, rather than stomach, so that looks a bit better at least. My habit of wearing shirts unbuttoned 1 button too far though might cross some lines of good taste, to say nothing of when I go all the way to two too many. I don't do that much anymore, I'm not quite skinny enough anymore, but it was awesome when I could do it.
I like to think I look pretty good (and not dorky) I avoid many of the current fashions and wear pretty timeless stuff, I normally wear slim jeans and a t shirt with a casual shirt over the top and a leagther jacket depending on weather conditions. I make sure that everything I wear is fairly unrestrictive and can manage a fair jog (fair for me, poor by athletic standards) in all of my jeans. I avoid going for fashions because I don't like them and I don't want to look the same as every other bloke that's wearing a polo shirt with the top button done up (thank one direction for that look).
How many buttons do you consider too many? I like to have the top button and two others undone which gives a glimpse of my tshirt (or pasty white chest) underneath though it's fine to go all the way when wearing a tshirt.
As someone who has played football (and thus worn very good quality tights with plenty of stretch/support), I can say that yoga pants and tights are probably a fair bit more comfy than you think. I'm almost certain a great many girls/women are HAPPY to be able to wear tights as clothes these days. The ones screwed over are probably girls that are both overweight and poor; they have a hell of a time finding clothes that actually work for their body type, which makes them stick out way more than they would. As I mentioned before, badly made tights on an overweight person are a really ugly sight.
I must admit, on the few occasions I've worn running tights they are rather comfortable and supportive in all the right places, I still prefer shorts but tights are very good for muscle support and injury prevention.
@meagloth: I suspect that the way you dress is much more heavily influenced by contemporary culture than you're acknowledging. And @DreadKhan is right that tights are comfortable.
@joluv has the possibility occurred to you that your fashion choices may have more significance than you realize?
Honestly, I understand that men are judged on their fashion choices. You're saying a lot of interesting and true stuff, but I feel like you still misunderstand my original point. (If not, then sorry for being repetitive.)
The question I'm talking about is, "What clothes can I wear today that will attract (essentially) no negative attention?" All I'm saying is that for a man, there is usually a clear answer to that question, even if the answer is very narrow. It's fair to acknowledge that narrowness as its own kind of oppression.
(Side note: "semi-dress shoes" is a category that has apparently become much less horrible in the last decade. You said that and I pictured some square-toed faux leather abomination with a molded rubber sole, possibly manufactured by Skechers and almost certainly sold at J. C. Penney. But a quick search turned up some surprisingly non-hideous choices.)
@wubble "How many buttons is too many?" is an eternal question. The answer depends heavily on country, physique, hour, and alcohol consumption.
Having grown up in the UK I never thought I'd be contributing to this thread (for me 'proms' were an alien concept that apparently involved gallons of animal blood descending from the ceiling, a la "Carrie"), however now that the discussion has veered somewhat I'd like to add my thoughts:
I've found that the way I dress can either reflect or affect my attitude at the time. For example "I'm dressed like a slob because it's the weekend and I want to relax after a hard week and I really don't feel the need to impress anybody at the moment". On the other hand, when I put on a well-ironed shirt, well-tied tie, fitted suit, etc. I FEEL more efficient and decisive and therefore in a better frame of mind to go to work. Also, whether you like it or not, the way you dress WILL affect how other people perceive you, both at work and socially but you can still infuse your own personality into any dress code be it formal or informal.
Regarding buttons, the very top button should never be done up unless you are wearing a tie, bow tie, or a clerical collar (ie a shirt that cannot be worn with a tie). The 2nd button, assuming its right at the base of the neck is usually a bit 'square' looking, so if you aren't dancing at a formal event (and have decided to remove your tie), unbutton it too. Now we're at the hard spot... some shirts have tighter button spacing, so you can in informal situations undue a 3rd button, for a breezey look thats still classy... but you might be cautious if you aren't wearing an undershirt.
If you have a substantial chest to waist ratio, you can more easily get away with more buttons undone, but again, an undershirt adds some class. Now, if you go to 4th, you had better be ready to look either like a slutty man, a guy who dangerously close to heat stroke, or a total sleezeball. If you're really fit, you MIGHT look piratical, which is VERY hard to pull off without looking stupid. Very fit is required, and considerable confidence.
So, generally 2 buttons undone is the unrisky option.
Comments
Well, some people do judge women harshly for dressing to 'forward', but I think that's silly. And am usually vocal about telling anyone so judgmental that its silly. The funny part being that I'm really a giant prude, I just don't think it's right to hold others to the standard I wish to hold myself to.
I would say men can get judged just as harshly if they fall under certain headings. Men that dress outside 'accepted norms' are pretty harshly treated by society. IE people that dress 'Goth', Bikers (less so if they have a patch I'd wager...), people in ethnic clothings (even if you're dressed like an urban black, this will get you judged harshly in MANY areas of North America), and of course crossdressers/trans people. Dressing really nerdy most boys figure out quickly will get them picked on pretty badly. Men are more likely to be physically assaulted remember vs women, so men going outside societal norms usually need to be a bit cautious too.
I do agree that not everyone means much by what they wear, but that's only true because most people dress exclusively to fit in I would argue, so of course their choices mean nothing. They'd wear paper bags on their head if other people did it first.
Women are allowed to express themselves a bit with fashion, men are expected to STRICTLY conform, and the more 'dressy', the more men are expected to conform. Every man at a black tie event is dressed pretty much identically; the women all get to wear a unique (...unless some ***** steals their outfit!
Now, I WOULD agree that women are unfairly pressured to expend far more resources on appearances than men are, but they also get more freedom in how those resources are allocated.
Men have the privilege of not standing out if they strictly conform, but even that is only true if that man doesn't stick out physically despite not dressing abnormally. If you're tall, fat, big boned, or super svelte all of this will make a difference in how much a man ends up being noticed anyways, in the same way women get noticed. Men can be pretty creepy about checking out other dudes, even straight men.
Mostly, I agree with what you're saying. Gender norms are ridiculous in every direction, and no one should be made bad for wearing whatever they want (short of like... swastikas and fedoras).
See what I mean?
-----------------------------------------
Women's clothing is probably better left to the women. I have a lot of thinks on this subject but as a non-woman I can't really say them without putting words in someone's mouth. If any women have their own words or thinks I'd be interested, but I'll try and shut up for now, after I say one more thing:
The whole thing boils down to an issue of conformity and fitting in(not a small issue in highschool) and what bothers me about all this is when I see people, admittedly usually girls, dressing a certain way that I don't think they would dress, all other variable removed, like leggings or very short shorts, to try and fit in or impress someone. (And Here I go putting words in mouths again) And that bothers me. People should not have to do things they're uncomfortable with to please someone else, especially when that someone else is some unpredictable, half-imagined social machine. And it's all very complicated, wrapped in layers of psychology, emotions, and advertising. It seems as though a lot of people(women) just wear what's "in" because it's "in", without so much as a thought as to weather they actually think it looks good. It's conscious and normal for them, but for me the idea that what some magazine or website says is popular should determine weather or not something pleases me is absurd. I pick what I like, thank you very much! Or as close as I can realisticly get to it. My phone has more control over my thoughts than my frontal lobe does.
But still, even for non-lawyers, everyone puts people into categories based on what you wear, men aren't exempt from this. Try wearing something still socially acceptable but different from what you'd normally wear... IE if you normally just wear a graphic tee, try a long sleeve buttoned shirt, preferably tucked in. Try wearing semi-dress shoes vs dirty-ass running shoes, people do tend to see you differently. Not everyone likes a more put together look though! Most younger people prefer a 'slacker' look, and most older people tend to like a more clean cut look.
@meagloth I could be wrong I guess, but I strongly suspect its less 'chicken and egg', and more 'men have yet to take the steps women have in questioning their gender roles and norms', most likely because men have historically had it better than women in the West. I think it's more of a chicken issue I guess?
Well, I don't think its anyone's place to order someone to dress a certain way, other than formal dress codes. I do think everyone is free to have an opinion, but sharing it is not always wise, and rarely a necessity, and trying to force opinions is where you get the issues of 'fitting in while in school'. I never was someone that 'fit in', but I was also big enough and weird enough that I was rarely targeted. I was never very strong, but size itself affects people I suppose. So while I often dressed pretty normally, at times I definitely went out on a limb. Even for me though, I was more weird in behaviour than how I dressed, so there you go. These days, I mostly dress on the 'mildly dorky' side, though if I didn't have my physical appearance I'd probably look way dorkier. I like to think I look old-fashioned though, even with the odd 'clearly modern' bit of clothing. I do tend to wear tighter shirts than most people, but they usually are tight around the chest, rather than stomach, so that looks a bit better at least. My habit of wearing shirts unbuttoned 1 button too far though might cross some lines of good taste, to say nothing of when I go all the way to two too many.
As someone who has played football (and thus worn very good quality tights with plenty of stretch/support), I can say that yoga pants and tights are probably a fair bit more comfy than you think. I'm almost certain a great many girls/women are HAPPY to be able to wear tights as clothes these days. The ones screwed over are probably girls that are both overweight and poor; they have a hell of a time finding clothes that actually work for their body type, which makes them stick out way more than they would. As I mentioned before, badly made tights on an overweight person are a really ugly sight. Also, girls today can totally rock jeans and be 'in style', jeans are totally acceptable still among even pretty stylish women.
Tbh female formal fashion isn't that much more diverse than the male side of it, in a courthouse sort of environment they're in fairly similar stuff to the men and when at an upper class party they're expected to wear a gown of some kind but that doesn't afford much more diversity than a man. sure they're allowed flamboyant colours and can change the style and cut of the dress but a bloke can have a different colour and style of suit too. Of course it's not reasonable to tell someone how they can dress (aside from formal and fancy dress) but it's hard for people not to be influenced by the clothes others are wearing due to social pressures, everyone should be free to wear what they want (within reason, I'm guessing streaking is off the table). I never really fit in in school either and when not in uniform my fashion sense was terrible because I couldn't care less (I wore what was comfortable and practical). I did get bullied a bit but thankfully not too badly that I'm emotionally scarred (lost a few fights too). I like to think I look pretty good (and not dorky) I avoid many of the current fashions and wear pretty timeless stuff, I normally wear slim jeans and a t shirt with a casual shirt over the top and a leagther jacket depending on weather conditions. I make sure that everything I wear is fairly unrestrictive and can manage a fair jog (fair for me, poor by athletic standards) in all of my jeans. I avoid going for fashions because I don't like them and I don't want to look the same as every other bloke that's wearing a polo shirt with the top button done up (thank one direction for that look).
How many buttons do you consider too many? I like to have the top button and two others undone which gives a glimpse of my tshirt (or pasty white chest) underneath though it's fine to go all the way when wearing a tshirt. I must admit, on the few occasions I've worn running tights they are rather comfortable and supportive in all the right places, I still prefer shorts but tights are very good for muscle support and injury prevention. In the uk jeans are perfectly acceptable for women, though they do get jealous of having decent pockets like in blokes' jeans.
The question I'm talking about is, "What clothes can I wear today that will attract (essentially) no negative attention?" All I'm saying is that for a man, there is usually a clear answer to that question, even if the answer is very narrow. It's fair to acknowledge that narrowness as its own kind of oppression.
(Side note: "semi-dress shoes" is a category that has apparently become much less horrible in the last decade. You said that and I pictured some square-toed faux leather abomination with a molded rubber sole, possibly manufactured by Skechers and almost certainly sold at J. C. Penney. But a quick search turned up some surprisingly non-hideous choices.)
@wubble "How many buttons is too many?" is an eternal question. The answer depends heavily on country, physique, hour, and alcohol consumption.
I've found that the way I dress can either reflect or affect my attitude at the time.
For example "I'm dressed like a slob because it's the weekend and I want to relax after a hard week and I really don't feel the need to impress anybody at the moment". On the other hand, when I put on a well-ironed shirt, well-tied tie, fitted suit, etc. I FEEL more efficient and decisive and therefore in a better frame of mind to go to work.
Also, whether you like it or not, the way you dress WILL affect how other people perceive you, both at work and socially but you can still infuse your own personality into any dress code be it formal or informal.
http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2015/04/wearing-a-suit-makes-people-think-differently/391802/
If you have a substantial chest to waist ratio, you can more easily get away with more buttons undone, but again, an undershirt adds some class. Now, if you go to 4th, you had better be ready to look either like a slutty man, a guy who dangerously close to heat stroke, or a total sleezeball. If you're really fit, you MIGHT look piratical, which is VERY hard to pull off without looking stupid. Very fit is required, and considerable confidence.
So, generally 2 buttons undone is the unrisky option.