It's possible that Gallifrey is in a constellation not seen from Earth and named by another/different race. I mean, the Sol System seems to be the crossroads of the galaxy (Witness how many other races have come to try and conquer Earth, and "The Pyramids of Mars" had the last living Phaester Osirian, who had committed genocide on the other members of his race… Not to mention the Ice Warriors). I sorta view Earth in Doctor Who as the Tokyo of the Galaxy. Races go there to try and destroy/conquer it. Kind of like Tokyo in the Kaiju movies. Even Gallifreyans like The Master, the Rani, The Meddling Monk and Cho Ji end up there sooner or later. (The Doctor, of course, being a given.)
Constellations are subjective, based on where they are viewed from. The stars that make it up may not have any real proximity to each other, since distance from the observer isn't taken into account. Thus, a distant galaxy can appear to be "in" a constellation viewed from Earth (as is the case with Andromeda).
But an all-boys "X-Factor Club" would be unlikely to produce comment.
Again I think you are missing the point. An All-boys "X-factor Club" would only start with a few boys going off with the girls to talk about/watch it.
Eh? I don't even see how you could come to that conclusion. The X-Factor is popular family viewing (aka lowest common denominator tripe), watched by people of all ages and genders. 12 year old boys can, and do, talk about it, absolutely no girls required.
Constellations are subjective, based on where they are viewed from. The stars that make it up may not have any real proximity to each other, since distance from the observer isn't taken into account. Thus, a distant galaxy can appear to be "in" a constellation viewed from Earth (as is the case with Andromeda).
Constellations are indeed subjective based on your physical location. HOWEVER, you can't see stars from a different galaxy distinctly enough for them to be 'mistaken' for some form of shape. Therefore, if someone talks about a constellation as a point of reference, they are probably talking about the galaxy that they are in.
But an all-boys "X-Factor Club" would be unlikely to produce comment.
Again I think you are missing the point. An All-boys "X-factor Club" would only start with a few boys going off with the girls to talk about/watch it.
Eh? I don't even see how you could come to that conclusion. The X-Factor is popular family viewing (aka lowest common denominator tripe), watched by people of all ages and genders. 12 year old boys can, and do, talk about it, absolutely no girls required.
I live in the US (and don't watch Reality TV if at all possible) and am unfamiliar with what X-Factor was. Therefore I assumed that, given your context, it was something akin to America's next top model where the predominant audience was female. THAT was the conclusion that I was drawing, particularly in light of the previous notation you mentioned about a Girls club going off to talk about X-factor.
My mistake, but it still doesn't change the point. Peer pressures effect both genders in more or less equal measure. Just because you observe it more so for boys, doesn't make it so.
Both genders experience pressure, but they don't experience it in the same way, nor are they pressured in the same directions. Girls experience more pressure to conform, but boys, if anything, are pressured to NOT conform. It's the boy who works hard in class, does everything he is told and goes overboard on homework that is most likely to be ridiculed by other boys.
As another example, I saw a family the other day with two small children around 4 or 5. The Boy's T-shirt read "little monster", the girl's "little angel".
Because we can. I've been playing BG off and on since it came out. I've never thought of it as a mans game. Don't get me wrong I'm all for a nice game of solitar but why flip cards when I can cut off the heads of dragons? Society thinks men are all aggressive therefore they require violent games while women are simply gentle beings that find such games to be unbecoming. To Hel with that I enjoy blood and gore as much as my brother. There are many reasons i enjoy it so much: The different challenges. The wonderful story line. All the different npcs and different personalities. You can be good or evil. You can be either gender And it doesn't effect the story. Most of all I play it for the slaughter filled adventure. You ask why women play, simply put Because we enjoy it.
Here's another one of these Dork Tower comics that addresses this topic. This one seems to confirm the stereotype, but only to make fun of it. It also offers a reason why women might not like some computer games, and ties into the point of @LadyRhian's thread about women's armor and clothing in fantasy art.
Both genders experience pressure, but they don't experience it in the same way, nor are they pressured in the same directions. Girls experience more pressure to conform, but boys, if anything, are pressured to NOT conform. It's the boy who works hard in class, does everything he is told and goes overboard on homework that is most likely to be ridiculed by other boys.
As another example, I saw a family the other day with two small children around 4 or 5. The Boy's T-shirt read "little monster", the girl's "little angel".
Had it occurred to you that the pressure to not conform that you describe might be a social/peer pressure?Things don't need to be 'The Same' to be 'Equal'.
Yes, the pressures are different across genders and societies. Both sexes experience 'Equal' levels of social/peer pressure. Further, both genders START OUT at all points of the introvert/extrovert scale, which was the original point. However I have no wish to belabor the point further and I am not here to teach a sociology class. If you are interested in more in depth exploration of the 'Equal' social pressures that both sexes are under, you may wish to invest time in a sociology class on the topic.
Both genders experience pressure, but they don't experience it in the same way, nor are they pressured in the same directions. Girls experience more pressure to conform, but boys, if anything, are pressured to NOT conform. It's the boy who works hard in class, does everything he is told and goes overboard on homework that is most likely to be ridiculed by other boys.
As another example, I saw a family the other day with two small children around 4 or 5. The Boy's T-shirt read "little monster", the girl's "little angel".
Had it occurred to you that the pressure to not conform that you describe might be a social/peer pressure?Things don't need to be 'The Same' to be 'Equal'.
Yes, the pressures are different across genders and societies. Both sexes experience 'Equal' levels of social/peer pressure. Further, both genders START OUT at all points of the introvert/extrovert scale, which was the original point. However I have no wish to belabor the point further and I am not here to teach a sociology class. If you are interested in more in depth exploration of the 'Equal' social pressures that both sexes are under, you may wish to invest time in a sociology class on the topic.
Not to throw myself in this to take sides, but Fardragon, I believe spyder is actually [i]confirming[/i] your point.
Spyder: Girl's shirt says "little Angel", which conforms to the meek/obedient stereotype. Boy's shirt says "little Monster", which confirms to the headstrong/rebellious sterotype.
Fardragon: Boys are expected to not "conform", but what I think (by all means, correct me if I'm wrong) you mean to say is that boys are expected to conform to something very different than girls-- to playing football, skipping homework and driving their caretakers/teachers/any authorities up the wall.
Aren't you two more or less in agreement then? Or did I misread everything?
Suddenly, this question came in my head. As a representative of the male part of the world, I understand the reasons why the games in general (and in BG and IWD in particular) are played by men. But why do women play in them?
First, women in principle are not very typical in playing computer games. And it's not my idea, it's simple statistics. I'm sure, that an audience of this community consists of less then 20% of female members. In other words, for every five men, there is only one woman on these forums))
I can understand when girls are playing in something causal, such as Solitaire, Tetris, three in a row or quests a la "Find the object." It is relaxing and is a good break from the daily routine affairs. But the games of such a plan as BG, IWD and, especially, PST require high concentration and a lot of time, which most of the beautiful half of humanity simply doesn't has for "this kind of child's plays".
So I would like to hear the opinion of our lovely female participants. Why have you chosen the games of such a plan?
(Sorry for construction of this text, this time I used Google Translate)
I'll avoid the obvious "why wouldn't we?" and "how offensive!" reactions because everyone else has pretty much covered all of those all ready, and do my best to give you an honest answer.
PLEASE NOTE THAT I AM MOSTLY A CONSOLE PEASANT, SO I CAN'T SPEAK FOR THE COMPUTER GAMING COMMUNITY.
First off, women have been a part of gaming culture for some time, but rarely have been as vocal or public as their male counterparts. Simply put, the internet is a toxic pit of racist, homophobic slimeballs with too many kitchen jokes and not enough asskickings to go around. It's not the most inviting environment for any newcomers, yes, but especially not if you have anything that deviates from the neckbeard's notion of a gamer-- the classic 25+ yr old male screaming slurs and insults through his mic the way most people breathe oxygen. The unexpected deviants-- younger children, women, people of color and older gamers get to bear the brunt of abuse for entering "the boy's club". As such, the few other women I have met with on console gaming platforms prefer to socialize through established friends and meet new people from there. Others often get confused with young boys (God knows why...) who don't consider any other possible reasons for a "high-pitched" voice. Others still simply don't use the mic at all and so pass unnoticed.
Secondly, forums are a terrible statistic for gaming communities. Most people go onto a forum for complaints or troubleshooting, and most of those will leave after saying what they will/having their question resolved. The forum members who remain are either major fans of the game, hanging out because of other members or are screaming for devloper attention to a percieved issue (regardless of how justified they may be). And again, forums can be toxic, and videogame forums are notoriously so (Defiance before becoming Free-to-Play, anyone!?), so its not unusual for women to either not volunteer their genders or simply select male. You'd be shocked at how anonymity turns people you know into monsters online...
Thirdly, you seem to have been taken in by some girl stereotypes. I remember encountering a 10-12yr old on Call of Duty some years back who was confused beyond all belief that a girl would WANT to play Call of Duty. "But... it's a boys' game!" Why? "It has shooting and guns!". Of course shooting and guns are no more masculine than feminine, and nothing on the box claims that Call of Duty is rated "B for Boys". The same applies for videogame genres-- I'm just as likely to see guys play Angry Birds as women on the local train. I like Solitaire (and surprised people by actually strategizing), and Battlefield for the same reason I like Baldur's Gate and Skyrim-- they interest me as a person, not as a gender.
This is highly inaccurate. Baldur's Gate doesn't have nearly enough boots. As a male I want at least ten new pairs of boots in the next update.
Back to the main topic... I've only read about a page and a half of this thread, so forgive me if everything I'm saying has already been said. I feel like the original post didn't come off the way it was intended. I don't think Saigon is saying women CAN'T play Baldur's Gate, he just wants to know why they do. Whether it be because he doesn't understand why our better halves would spend their time with such a frivolous endeavor, or simply because he's curious as to the exact reasoning why each one does.
Personally, I do feel like female gamers aren't quite as common as male gamers, or at least not as public, but that doesn't mean they're not cool. Heck, the girl I'm interested in right now's a gamer and that's a serious turn-on for me. Geek girls are great!
Point is, women can do anything men can do. Men can do anything women can do. (Apart from the whole, giving birth thing. Thanks for that, btw.) And it's okay to want to do what is stereotypically the other gender's role.
And I think we can all agree on why we all play Baldur's Gate. Anomen's just too da** dreamy. (Intentional bear-poking is obvious)
Not to throw myself in this to take sides, but Fardragon, I believe spyder is actually [i]confirming[/i] your point.
Spyder: Girl's shirt says "little Angel", which conforms to the meek/obedient stereotype. Boy's shirt says "little Monster", which confirms to the headstrong/rebellious sterotype.
Fardragon: Boys are expected to not "conform", but what I think (by all means, correct me if I'm wrong) you mean to say is that boys are expected to conform to something very different than girls-- to playing football, skipping homework and driving their caretakers/teachers/any authorities up the wall.
Aren't you two more or less in agreement then? Or did I misread everything?
I see it quite differently. I was always brought up to conform with society. It has by and large molded me into the man I am today. Regardless of what the image was that I was being coerced into playing, it was still peer pressure. And my response to that pressure did vary and not necessarily in predictable or intended ways.
My point is, and has always been, that there are social pressures brought into play with both genders in roughly equal measure. And that the way a child starts out and the way that they move on the introvert/extrovert scale is not predictable. Further it is inappropriate to say that girls are, by virtue of their gender, any more (or less) socially grounded or enabled than boys are.
I gather that @Fardragon is more of the opinion that girls are more socially adept and that is primarily because they are under more social pressure than boys. Unless I miss my reading of their statements thus far.
To take things in a different direction, I really liked that comic that @BelgarathMTH shared. It hung the right amount of satire around the topic. It's true that game marketers have historically assumed that the market was more male oriented than it probably ever actually was. And that has caused the number of women gamers to either not be as realized as it could be or has caused the women gamers that do exist not to be as vocal as they might be.
Thankfully a game like Baldur's gate isn't quite as sexist in it's presentation as maybe something like Tomb Raider. And hence that is why it might have a few more openly female players. I say "Openly" because I am sure that just as many women like wasting time playing games of all description as men.
So its a matter of comforming being/not being the root cause of being social, as in "I am social because I must conform" vs. "I am social because I am female and must be socialable"? They're not necessarily opposite viewpoints-- if you ask me (no one did, I just kinda butted into it, but hey), the accepted wisdom so far has been that social comforming exists for both genders but with different standards ("Boys will be boys", rebellion within accepted parameters, "Girly things", meek and mild acceptance of authority).
I dunno, from where I'm sitting it kinda looks like you guys are just arguing over two sides of the same coin...
I can see your point of view. The original point of the thread was the assumption that women don't game and play games like Baldur's gate, and why would the ones who do, do it. It then transpired that some forumites thought that girls and women weren't as introverted as guys were so they had less of a need for isolationist style pass-times.
Where I think we got bogged down is that I reject the premise that women don't game, or even are less prevalent gamers than men in today's society. Further I totally reject the theory that women are any less socially awkward (as a whole) than men are, regardless of the cause or reasons. I gather that the opposing view was that women are socially pressurized to conform and therefore were less socially awkward. Therein lies the crux of my personal responses.
Yes, women are pressured. So are men. Yes that pressure on women is more to conform than the pressure brought to play on men. That in no way means that the pressure has the intended outcome. I know a fair number of women who are a LOT more socially awkward than I am. And I know women who are LESS socially adept BECAUSE of the pressures brought into play. Nor does it follow that women are, by their nature, better able to socialize and adapt. And finally it absolutely does not follow that women don't game.
But I think it got WAY off balance a while ago, I agree. That's why I tried to rope it back by 'taking a different direction'.
I gather that @Fardragon is more of the opinion that girls are more socially adept and that is primarily because they are under more social pressure than boys. Unless I miss my reading of their statements thus far.
Nope, that is completely not what I was saying. I wasn't talking about "social adeptness" at all. I don't really see any gender differences in that, at least not the age range I usually teach. I was talking about bullying, and the freedom to pursue "unconventional" interests.
Nope, that is completely not what I was saying. I wasn't talking about "social adeptness" at all. I don't really see any gender differences in that, at least not the age range I usually teach. I was talking about bullying, and the freedom to pursue "unconventional" interests.
So I am sorry for my part if I misinterpreted your statements.
However, are you saying that boys aren't bullied if they choose to pursue unconventional interests?
Nope, that is completely not what I was saying. I wasn't talking about "social adeptness" at all. I don't really see any gender differences in that, at least not the age range I usually teach. I was talking about bullying, and the freedom to pursue "unconventional" interests.
So I am sorry for my part if I misinterpreted your statements.
However, are you saying that boys aren't bullied if they choose to pursue unconventional interests?
More commonly, they are bullied if they are too conformist. Boys are expected to be rebels.
when I was young I rebelliously liked the colour pink... then grade 1 happened
Real men wear pink. More importantly, only certain men can pull of a pink-tinged wardrobe. Everytime I see some dude-bro attacking someone for having a pink-anything I just think to myself, "You couldn't pull it off yourself, hmm?".
Apparently pink used to be boys' color ca. 100 years ago, because a strong red was a man's color. Blue was for women, as it is the color of "Virgin Mary".
when I was young I rebelliously liked the colour pink... then grade 1 happened
Psshtt Pink and Teal are still my favorite colors.
Told everyone I liked blue though >_>
My favorite colors are Ruby Red, Royal Blue, White and Eggplant Purple. Metallic is Silver. I also have a sneaking fondness for Black. (I own a shirt which is black writing on a black shirt and says, "I only wear Black until they come up with something darker")
Unless I'm mistaken, pink means manliness in Japan. Or strength, or something like that. Point is, pink=manly. Although the problem with pink is there are too many shades of it and no one looks good in every shade. The general colour "pink" is my fourth favourite colour, though.
Pink is masculine still if its not 'hot pink'... Fuschia is fine and manly! *ahem*
In the West, boys are expected to 'rebel' in carefully prescribed fashions, deviate and you are in trouble if you aren't quite young. Rebellious men are just depressing, unless they havema very decent cause. Nothing sadder than an entightled Mid-Life Crisis. So, boys aren't to be ACTUALLY rebellious.
I think girls being rebellious is still frowned upon by society. People still obsess over Nirvana, most have no clue about Hole. Kinda sad, I find Nirvana had many very tedious songs, though I liked them more when I was young, naturally.
More commonly, they are bullied if they are too conformist. Boys are expected to be rebels.
You and I live in VERY different worlds then.
Different countries, it's hardly surprising. People like to lump "the West" together, but there are a lot of differences between countries, particularly if you look at the details, like eduction.
I remember when I was at school, back in the 1980s, I was really annoyed when an official, teacher supervised Dungeons & Dragons club started up. It stops being cool when it becomes mainstream.
I ran a D&D (actually, AD&D 1e) club for middle schoolers when I was in High School. At the end of the year, the teacher who sponsored it gave me enough money for some pizzas and a half sheet cake for a party. It was very popular. Possibly because I was only a little older than they were.
I had a teacher in highschool who ran a videogame club afterschool, and since he was one of the 30-something younger teachers we all liked him anyway and happily stomped each other in Halo 3. Good times. I think it really depends on whether or not the teacher is actually part of the culture or is awkwardly running it because bossman/bosslady said so.
Comments
I live in the US (and don't watch Reality TV if at all possible) and am unfamiliar with what X-Factor was. Therefore I assumed that, given your context, it was something akin to America's next top model where the predominant audience was female. THAT was the conclusion that I was drawing, particularly in light of the previous notation you mentioned about a Girls club going off to talk about X-factor.
My mistake, but it still doesn't change the point. Peer pressures effect both genders in more or less equal measure. Just because you observe it more so for boys, doesn't make it so.
As another example, I saw a family the other day with two small children around 4 or 5. The Boy's T-shirt read "little monster", the girl's "little angel".
Society thinks men are all aggressive therefore they require violent games while women are simply gentle beings that find such games to be unbecoming. To Hel with that I enjoy blood and gore as much as my brother.
There are many reasons i enjoy it so much:
The different challenges.
The wonderful story line.
All the different npcs and different personalities.
You can be good or evil.
You can be either gender And it doesn't effect the story.
Most of all I play it for the slaughter filled adventure.
You ask why women play, simply put Because we enjoy it.
http://www.dorktower.com/2001/03/19/comics-archive-126/
Yes, the pressures are different across genders and societies. Both sexes experience 'Equal' levels of social/peer pressure. Further, both genders START OUT at all points of the introvert/extrovert scale, which was the original point. However I have no wish to belabor the point further and I am not here to teach a sociology class. If you are interested in more in depth exploration of the 'Equal' social pressures that both sexes are under, you may wish to invest time in a sociology class on the topic.
Spyder: Girl's shirt says "little Angel", which conforms to the meek/obedient stereotype. Boy's shirt says "little Monster", which confirms to the headstrong/rebellious sterotype.
Fardragon: Boys are expected to not "conform", but what I think (by all means, correct me if I'm wrong) you mean to say is that boys are expected to conform to something very different than girls-- to playing football, skipping homework and driving their caretakers/teachers/any authorities up the wall.
Aren't you two more or less in agreement then? Or did I misread everything?
PLEASE NOTE THAT I AM MOSTLY A CONSOLE PEASANT, SO I CAN'T SPEAK FOR THE COMPUTER GAMING COMMUNITY.
First off, women have been a part of gaming culture for some time, but rarely have been as vocal or public as their male counterparts. Simply put, the internet is a toxic pit of racist, homophobic slimeballs with too many kitchen jokes and not enough asskickings to go around. It's not the most inviting environment for any newcomers, yes, but especially not if you have anything that deviates from the neckbeard's notion of a gamer-- the classic 25+ yr old male screaming slurs and insults through his mic the way most people breathe oxygen. The unexpected deviants-- younger children, women, people of color and older gamers get to bear the brunt of abuse for entering "the boy's club". As such, the few other women I have met with on console gaming platforms prefer to socialize through established friends and meet new people from there. Others often get confused with young boys (God knows why...) who don't consider any other possible reasons for a "high-pitched" voice. Others still simply don't use the mic at all and so pass unnoticed.
Secondly, forums are a terrible statistic for gaming communities. Most people go onto a forum for complaints or troubleshooting, and most of those will leave after saying what they will/having their question resolved. The forum members who remain are either major fans of the game, hanging out because of other members or are screaming for devloper attention to a percieved issue (regardless of how justified they may be). And again, forums can be toxic, and videogame forums are notoriously so (Defiance before becoming Free-to-Play, anyone!?), so its not unusual for women to either not volunteer their genders or simply select male. You'd be shocked at how anonymity turns people you know into monsters online...
Thirdly, you seem to have been taken in by some girl stereotypes. I remember encountering a 10-12yr old on Call of Duty some years back who was confused beyond all belief that a girl would WANT to play Call of Duty. "But... it's a boys' game!" Why? "It has shooting and guns!". Of course shooting and guns are no more masculine than feminine, and nothing on the box claims that Call of Duty is rated "B for Boys". The same applies for videogame genres-- I'm just as likely to see guys play Angry Birds as women on the local train. I like Solitaire (and surprised people by actually strategizing), and Battlefield for the same reason I like Baldur's Gate and Skyrim-- they interest me as a person, not as a gender.
Back to the main topic...
I've only read about a page and a half of this thread, so forgive me if everything I'm saying has already been said. I feel like the original post didn't come off the way it was intended. I don't think Saigon is saying women CAN'T play Baldur's Gate, he just wants to know why they do. Whether it be because he doesn't understand why our better halves would spend their time with such a frivolous endeavor, or simply because he's curious as to the exact reasoning why each one does.
Personally, I do feel like female gamers aren't quite as common as male gamers, or at least not as public, but that doesn't mean they're not cool. Heck, the girl I'm interested in right now's a gamer and that's a serious turn-on for me. Geek girls are great!
Point is, women can do anything men can do. Men can do anything women can do. (Apart from the whole, giving birth thing. Thanks for that, btw.) And it's okay to want to do what is stereotypically the other gender's role.
And I think we can all agree on why we all play Baldur's Gate. Anomen's just too da** dreamy. (Intentional bear-poking is obvious)
My point is, and has always been, that there are social pressures brought into play with both genders in roughly equal measure. And that the way a child starts out and the way that they move on the introvert/extrovert scale is not predictable. Further it is inappropriate to say that girls are, by virtue of their gender, any more (or less) socially grounded or enabled than boys are.
I gather that @Fardragon is more of the opinion that girls are more socially adept and that is primarily because they are under more social pressure than boys. Unless I miss my reading of their statements thus far.
To take things in a different direction, I really liked that comic that @BelgarathMTH shared. It hung the right amount of satire around the topic. It's true that game marketers have historically assumed that the market was more male oriented than it probably ever actually was. And that has caused the number of women gamers to either not be as realized as it could be or has caused the women gamers that do exist not to be as vocal as they might be.
Thankfully a game like Baldur's gate isn't quite as sexist in it's presentation as maybe something like Tomb Raider. And hence that is why it might have a few more openly female players. I say "Openly" because I am sure that just as many women like wasting time playing games of all description as men.
I dunno, from where I'm sitting it kinda looks like you guys are just arguing over two sides of the same coin...
Where I think we got bogged down is that I reject the premise that women don't game, or even are less prevalent gamers than men in today's society. Further I totally reject the theory that women are any less socially awkward (as a whole) than men are, regardless of the cause or reasons. I gather that the opposing view was that women are socially pressurized to conform and therefore were less socially awkward. Therein lies the crux of my personal responses.
Yes, women are pressured. So are men. Yes that pressure on women is more to conform than the pressure brought to play on men. That in no way means that the pressure has the intended outcome. I know a fair number of women who are a LOT more socially awkward than I am. And I know women who are LESS socially adept BECAUSE of the pressures brought into play. Nor does it follow that women are, by their nature, better able to socialize and adapt. And finally it absolutely does not follow that women don't game.
But I think it got WAY off balance a while ago, I agree. That's why I tried to rope it back by 'taking a different direction'.
However, are you saying that boys aren't bullied if they choose to pursue unconventional interests?
Told everyone I liked blue though >_>
In the West, boys are expected to 'rebel' in carefully prescribed fashions, deviate and you are in trouble if you aren't quite young. Rebellious men are just depressing, unless they havema very decent cause. Nothing sadder than an entightled Mid-Life Crisis. So, boys aren't to be ACTUALLY rebellious.
I think girls being rebellious is still frowned upon by society. People still obsess over Nirvana, most have no clue about Hole. Kinda sad, I find Nirvana had many very tedious songs, though I liked them more when I was young, naturally.
I remember when I was at school, back in the 1980s, I was really annoyed when an official, teacher supervised Dungeons & Dragons club started up. It stops being cool when it becomes mainstream.