@DreadKhan: Sorry, I should have been more clear. I was talking about awkward women self-segregating, not saying anything about you. And I don't disagree with what you're saying.
I'm stating that pretty strong social pressures force girls to be less inept, not that the actual people are of a different nature. A much higher degree of anti-social behaviours are (or perhaps were, nowadays) tolerated in boys, which will affect people's behaviour. This is hardly something only I have noticed, its a huge complaint of 2nd wave feminism that girls are socially pressured to be docile, and either completely chaste or promiscuous, and boys raised to be 'tough', aggressive, and always desperately horny. The form 'social awkwardness' takes can vary based on very different social pressures/mores.
Depending on where you are, those 'Strong social pressures' can come to bare on both men and women. I don't necessarily believe that they are inherently more focused on women from a global stand point.
As far as 'anti-social behaviors', they may be tolerated for men (more's the shame), but I hardly think that is the point that is being discussed. 'Anti-social behaviors' have very little to do with social awkwardness. Except from the peacock perspective. The louder the 'plumage' the more attention they draw to themselves. And women merely use a different KIND of plumage. This doesn't mean that, nor is it isolated to, people who are socially awkward. things don't have to be 'The same' to be equal.
Finally, complaints by any given social group do not necessarily mean that they factors that they believe are influencing society, ARE influencing society. It is absolutely true that, 50 or 100 years ago women were meant to be seen and not heard. Today, we have a woman running for president of the US (not necessarily a great candidate, but that has nothing to do with her gender). Women are in politics, hold high positions in industry and even compete in sports on more or less equal footing with men. While things aren't 100% equal, it's true, they are a LOT better than the 60 or even the 80s.
EDIT. To be clear, I am NOT saying that things are equal between the sexes. I am NOT saying that there aren't a LOT of ways that things can be improved regarding gender equality. I am in FULL support of reform and change and making things 100% equal (if such a thing is possible). I simply don't like it when people make issues out of nothing. There are enough issues as it is without knee-jerk concocting issues just to waive flags at.
Depending on where you are, those 'Strong social pressures' can come to bare on both men and women. I don't necessarily believe that they are inherently more focused on women from a global stand point.
Based on my experience as a teacher in the UK, girls tend to be much worse bullies towards other girls who don't fit within what they consider as socially acceptable norms. Boys are much more likely to simply ignore other boys that they don't understand.
It's true that bullying can push someone to "fit in," and that fitting in is a skill that can sometimes be useful. That's not a defense of bullying, which has negative effects that far outweigh this marginal benefit. Cutting off someone's arm helps them lose weight, too.
Do you mean to imply bullying helps these girls (become less awkward)?
Its not just bullying from peers I was refering to, but also pressure from authority figures. Both can theoretically be beneficial, but they almost never actually are.
On a purely physical level, there are obvious structural differences for reproductive reasons. All of the other differences are socially and culturally derived in my opinion. Subject to change.
Do you mean to imply bullying helps these girls (become less awkward)?
No, that it is harder for girls to be non-conformist.
I know many girls who would disagree with you...
Because they don't want to boast about the bullies they faced down.
Well, as a woman who was bullied as a kid, I'll agree with you there. I don't enjoy "boasting" about the "bullies" I "faced down." I don't care to talk about those experiences at all because they sucked and I'd rather focus on other things. But none of that has anything to do with my gender.
Asking whether and how women/girls are socially pushed away from geekdom seems on-topic to me. Or at least it's on-topic for "Do women play Baldur's Gate? If not, why not?"
Do you mean to imply bullying helps these girls (become less awkward)?
No, that it is harder for girls to be non-conformist.
I know many girls who would disagree with you...
Because they don't want to boast about the bullies they faced down.
Well, as a woman who was bullied as a kid, I'll agree with you there. I don't enjoy "boasting" about the "bullies" I "faced down." I don't care to talk about those experiences at all because they sucked and I'd rather focus on other things. But none of that has anything to do with my gender.
Perhaps I should detail my observations, based purely on UK (specifically English) Schools.
A class of 12 year olds breaks up for lunch. Most of the boys go off to play football*. A much smaller group of boys potters off to my Science Club. Neither group says anything to the other. However, if a girl contemplates going to football or science club, she is quickly surrounded by a gaggle of other girls saying "science is boring", "sport makes you smelly" and suchlike. So, unless she is very determined, the girl will be dragged off to spend her lunch break discussing Saturday's X-Factor/Britain's Got Talent. Thus, children re-enforce gender stereotypes.
Things are changing more quickly when it comes to computer games though. Pretty much every 8 year old of either gender I come across is obsessed with Minecraft.
As for my own experiences, whilst I did experience some bullying growing up, it was nothing like as bad as that experienced by my wife and female friends.
However, if a girl contemplates going to football or science club, she is quickly surrounded by a gaggle of other girls saying "science is boring", "sport makes you smelly" and suchlike. So, unless she is very determined, the girl will be dragged off to spend her lunch break discussing Saturday's X-Factor/Britain's Got Talent. Thus, children re-enforce gender stereotypes.
From what I remember any girl that wanted to become a nerd would have been welcomed with open arms by me and my friends, unfortunately there were none . still, by the time you get to Uni nobody seems to care about stereotypes anymore. It could just be that I'm ignorant though
A class of 12 year olds breaks up for lunch. Most of the boys go off to play football*. A much smaller group of boys potters off to my Science Club. Neither group says anything to the other. However, if a girl contemplates going to football or science club, she is quickly surrounded by a gaggle of other girls saying "science is boring", "sport makes you smelly" and suchlike. So, unless she is very determined, the girl will be dragged off to spend her lunch break discussing Saturday's X-Factor/Britain's Got Talent. Thus, children re-enforce gender stereotypes.
I think you are missing a rather significant factor here. If any of the boys attempt to to go off with the GIRLS to discuss X-Factor/Britain's Got Talent, THEY will be subject to the exact same level of peer pressure to come out with the boys. The social pressures exist for both genders. I just don't think that you observe them.
At the end of the day, the discussion surrounds people basically being people regardless of gender. Social influences not withstanding, there are going to be those of both genders that are extroverts and socially outgoing and those that are introverts. This will be across both genders. And yes, there are social pressures that will motivate individuals in one direction or the other. These pressures exist for both genders and in just about equal measure.
Traditional gender roles are something that everyone gets effected by and influenced from.
A class of 12 year olds breaks up for lunch. Most of the boys go off to play football*. A much smaller group of boys potters off to my Science Club. Neither group says anything to the other. However, if a girl contemplates going to football or science club, she is quickly surrounded by a gaggle of other girls saying "science is boring", "sport makes you smelly" and suchlike. So, unless she is very determined, the girl will be dragged off to spend her lunch break discussing Saturday's X-Factor/Britain's Got Talent. Thus, children re-enforce gender stereotypes.
I think you are missing a rather significant factor here. If any of the boys attempt to to go off with the GIRLS to discuss X-Factor/Britain's Got Talent, THEY will be subject to the exact same level of peer pressure to come out with the boys. The social pressures exist for both genders. I just don't think that you observe them.
With the girls, yes. There is pressure at that age not to mix genders. But an all-boys "X-Factor Club" would be unlikely to produce comment. Boys certainly face social pressures of their own (e.g. to not do homework), but not so much over choice of hobby (now - things have changed, 30 years ago, when I was at school, opting for needlework would have produced a reaction).
Possibly, in the UK, more effort has been put into teaching boys about gender equality than teaching girls about gender equality, creating an inequality all of it's own.
I'm serious. Go to a Dr who convention (or anywhere where there is comics or cosplay). TONS of socially awkward and REALLY Geeky women. Women are not that different from men. Both sexes can occupy all points on the axis line.
Heck, I won a trivia contest with the question, "What are the coordinates of Gallifrey?" (this was during the days of the 5th/6th Doctor.) And I still know, "ten zero eleven zero zero by zero two from Galactic Center". Beat that, Geek-Nerds!
But an all-boys "X-Factor Club" would be unlikely to produce comment.
Again I think you are missing the point. An All-boys "X-factor Club" would only start with a few boys going off with the girls to talk about/watch it. And THAT would never happen by your own admission. Well, it in fact does happen all the time, but not without peer pressure (both positive and negative). And I'd bet dollars to donuts that it happens in your area more often than you are aware.
In short there are peer pressures on both genders that are similar if not the same.
And this still doesn't address the fact that individuals of both genders can fall anywhere along the axis between introverts and extroverts. Yes, peer pressures can force individuals one way or the other on the axis, but not always consistently. Someone faced with overwhelming peer pressure to 'Fit in' might rebel and become even more of an introvert. And an introvert, when faced with loneliness and depression might very well force themselves out of their own shells.
To say that one gender or the other "As a whole" are more socially adept or awkward is to absolutely ignore the facts. But then our own personal biases will often times color our own perceptions. We often times only see that which validates our own perspectives, ignoring or rationalizing away that which doesn't fit into our own little box of how the world works.
Heck, I won a trivia contest with the question, "What are the coordinates of Gallifrey?" (this was during the days of the 5th/6th Doctor.) And I still know, "ten zero eleven zero zero by zero two from Galactic Center". Beat that, Geek-Nerds!
Well, our über-geek on this forum is @LadyRhian of course. So how can anyone beat that?
They've hinted over the years that it might be a different galaxy all-together. there are numerous references to Earth being in Mutter's Spiral, thus separating it from whatever "Spiral" that Gallifrey exists in. However, it's inclusion in a nameable constellation does suggest that it is our own.
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As far as 'anti-social behaviors', they may be tolerated for men (more's the shame), but I hardly think that is the point that is being discussed. 'Anti-social behaviors' have very little to do with social awkwardness. Except from the peacock perspective. The louder the 'plumage' the more attention they draw to themselves. And women merely use a different KIND of plumage. This doesn't mean that, nor is it isolated to, people who are socially awkward. things don't have to be 'The same' to be equal.
Finally, complaints by any given social group do not necessarily mean that they factors that they believe are influencing society, ARE influencing society. It is absolutely true that, 50 or 100 years ago women were meant to be seen and not heard. Today, we have a woman running for president of the US (not necessarily a great candidate, but that has nothing to do with her gender). Women are in politics, hold high positions in industry and even compete in sports on more or less equal footing with men. While things aren't 100% equal, it's true, they are a LOT better than the 60 or even the 80s.
EDIT. To be clear, I am NOT saying that things are equal between the sexes. I am NOT saying that there aren't a LOT of ways that things can be improved regarding gender equality. I am in FULL support of reform and change and making things 100% equal (if such a thing is possible). I simply don't like it when people make issues out of nothing. There are enough issues as it is without knee-jerk concocting issues just to waive flags at.
It's very much a cultural thing though.
If this goes on I'll just split the new discussion to a new thread.
A class of 12 year olds breaks up for lunch. Most of the boys go off to play football*. A much smaller group of boys potters off to my Science Club. Neither group says anything to the other. However, if a girl contemplates going to football or science club, she is quickly surrounded by a gaggle of other girls saying "science is boring", "sport makes you smelly" and suchlike. So, unless she is very determined, the girl will be dragged off to spend her lunch break discussing Saturday's X-Factor/Britain's Got Talent. Thus, children re-enforce gender stereotypes.
Things are changing more quickly when it comes to computer games though. Pretty much every 8 year old of either gender I come across is obsessed with Minecraft.
As for my own experiences, whilst I did experience some bullying growing up, it was nothing like as bad as that experienced by my wife and female friends.
*Soccer
At the end of the day, the discussion surrounds people basically being people regardless of gender. Social influences not withstanding, there are going to be those of both genders that are extroverts and socially outgoing and those that are introverts. This will be across both genders. And yes, there are social pressures that will motivate individuals in one direction or the other. These pressures exist for both genders and in just about equal measure.
Traditional gender roles are something that everyone gets effected by and influenced from.
Possibly, in the UK, more effort has been put into teaching boys about gender equality than teaching girls about gender equality, creating an inequality all of it's own.
http://www.dorktower.com/2001/01/28/comics-archive-66/
I think the idea that women don't play roleplaying games, or play for different reasons than men, may be based on an outdated stereotype.
In short there are peer pressures on both genders that are similar if not the same.
And this still doesn't address the fact that individuals of both genders can fall anywhere along the axis between introverts and extroverts. Yes, peer pressures can force individuals one way or the other on the axis, but not always consistently. Someone faced with overwhelming peer pressure to 'Fit in' might rebel and become even more of an introvert. And an introvert, when faced with loneliness and depression might very well force themselves out of their own shells.
To say that one gender or the other "As a whole" are more socially adept or awkward is to absolutely ignore the facts. But then our own personal biases will often times color our own perceptions. We often times only see that which validates our own perspectives, ignoring or rationalizing away that which doesn't fit into our own little box of how the world works.