Do you prefer Baldurs gate thieves or later thieves/ rogues?

jesterdesu

jesterdesu

Baldurs Gate thieves are great in my opinion. They epitomise efficiency, planning and murder, but only when used correct... glass cannons with a few added escapes.

Later on don't quite float my boat so much and it feels they're going WoW like... lots of fast hits, rather than singular massive hits, better toe to toe abilities, generally more combat orientated and less murder focused.

Fyi I am no master of d&d rules so I do not know if that trend continues past nwn2, but certainly the rpg's ive seen since (all be it non d&d ones) such as Dragon Age/ Pillars seem to have this WoW idea of rogues going...

Jarrakul

In video game form, definitely the latter. If you're not good in a fight, why are you there? Almost all of the really interesting non-combat stuff is impossible in a video game. In PnP, I have a somewhat more complicated opinion. The summary is that I like all the wonderful options PnP thieves have to deal with a diverse array of situations, and how much they shine in the hands of a creative player, but at the end of the day there's never been much reason to play a thief when you could play a wizard.

Nonnahswriter

Jarrakul said:

In video game form, definitely the latter. If you're not good in a fight, why are you there? Almost all of the really interesting non-combat stuff is impossible in a video game. In PnP, I have a somewhat more complicated opinion. The summary is that I like all the wonderful options PnP thieves have to deal with a diverse array of situations, and how much they shine in the hands of a creative player, but at the end of the day there's never been much reason to play a thief when you could play a wizard.

^This.

deltago

I dont know if I understand the question, but I think it going to come down to comparing 2e rules to 3e rules and which one that person prefers.

3e thieves are suppose to be utility. They get more skill points than other classes and can be min maxed to fit certain roles in computer games compared to PnP. Even though they are easier to min max into whatever role you at looking to fill, there is a lot of versatility to them.

2e thieves are more linear but also more rounded. They all get the same abilities at every level, and they may be min maxed at the beginning, but later levels have them all looking similar as you run out of places to put your skill points.

So 3e thieves get my vote just for the versatility of them and the more ways you can be creative.

~

If you are comparing it to the role reversal of later RPGs where fighters become more utility in their abilities (being more meat shield than damage dealer, making enemies prone, breaking through armour) while thieves pick up the damage by hit and runs, then I prefer old school thieves.

DreadKhan

Well, in PnP, until 3rd ed everyone hated playing as thieves. Boring and glory-less role, with the option to BS with preperation. In 3rd, Rogues have actual use in battle. They aren't great without warrior support, but they aren't just walking toolkits with combat abilities roughly on par with wizards (Which they were in 2nd ed).

Flashburn

I hugely prefer 3E Rogues to AD&D Thieves. There are all kinds of possibilities you can create with a Rogue's skill set as opposed to a Thief's. Thieves fizzle out in high level combat but Rogues remain competitive and are capable of dealing huge DPS with sneak attacks.

Tuth

Generally I don't like the trend that turned Thieves into Assassins and Fighters into Tanks. Thief is that one class that doesn't specialize in any aspect of combat, apart from certain rare situations (backstab etc.), it's strength is located elsewhere and I like the way it is handled in AD&D. 3rd Edition Rogues are fine, but I prefer Thieves as those guys will try to avoid direct conflict and use their skillset to their advantage in other ways, or be the Macgyver of the group. 3E has some nice features, but many flaws that made me return to playing AD&D.

In terms of cRPGs I see it almost the same way, a Thief shouldn't be that much useful in combat, because he's the expert in solving troublesome obstacles in a quiet way.

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bob_veng

i prefer 2ed thief but he should really have much better thac0 progression.

DreadKhan

I think the THAC0 progression is a huge penalty on an already 'unpleasant to play' class... Thieves are supposed to be pretty versatile, but in 2nd Ed, a similar level mage can easily be better in combat due to spell buffs.

If you guys that are big fans of 2nd Ed Thieves get a chance, take a look at Thieves' World D20. It has classes for 3rd Ed that are very reminiscent of the old Thief, while having tons of versatility. Savant in particular is worth a glance, its very much a player-worthy version of the Expert NPC class.

jesterdesu

Tuth said:

Generally I don't like the trend that turned Thieves into Assassins and Fighters into Tanks. Thief is that one class that doesn't specialize in any aspect of combat, apart from certain rare situations (backstab etc.), it's strength is located elsewhere and I like the way it is handled in AD&D. 3rd Edition Rogues are fine, but I prefer Thieves as those guys will try to avoid direct conflict and use their skillset to their advantage in other ways, or be the Macgyver of the group. 3E has some nice features, but many flaws that made me return to playing AD&D.

In terms of cRPGs I see it almost the same way, a Thief shouldn't be that much useful in combat, because he's the expert in solving troublesome obstacles in a quiet way.

I really like how you've put this, though feel thieves became fighter/thieves, whilst assassin is what I'm after.

DreadKhan

Thieves' World had an Assassin base class... not magical iirc, more rogue with additional combat options, I did think giving Assassins spells was a peculiar choice in 3rd.

jesterdesu

DreadKhan said:

Thieves' World had an Assassin base class... not magical iirc, more rogue with additional combat options, I did think giving Assassins spells was a peculiar choice in 3rd.

I've been reading some of this thieves world since you first mentioned it - was previously unaware of its existence.

DreadKhan

Too many are! I made a thread about the D20 book, a kind of review. Its wordy, and not so much about the novels. Really loved the novels though, almost all of the stories are well done... I have only 2 authors I really didn't care for, and even then, it wasn't 'bad', it was just 'I don't need to reread this story as often', so I sometimes just skip them.

Any favourites so far? How far are you in? HAVE YOH MET TEMPUS YET?!? He's something else, even for the genre.

JuliusBorisov

Maybe the biggest problem for me is that I've played with "BG thieves" a lot and, on the contrary, haven't really tested "later thieves".

I've got used to the BG-way of things, and thus the sneak attack option in IWDEE has been very welcome.

Onestep

BG Thieves are, by and large, more dangerous if played right. But that's mostly because health pools in 2nd Edition were actually somewhat reasonable for the most part, rather than 40D12 + 8 HP per level. Like you got in 3rd edition.

NWN and NWN 2 Thieves are pretty fun, but against an undead, construct, ethereal or divine being, they really lack a punch. It's not even like NWN or NWN 2 provided many opportunities for non-combat stuff, which is a real shame.