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Your favorite EE NPC

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  • FlashburnFlashburn Member Posts: 1,847
    Baeloth is my favorite companion of the enhanced editions because his affinity for alliteration is amusing, not to mention his awesome ability to rain arcane armageddon on his enemies. Pairs great with Edwin.

    Dorn... So good in the first game, and then it all falls apart in the second game. For having 14 Wisdom, he sure does some really stupid and short-sighted things BECAUSE FOR TEH EVULZ! He gets offended so easily that you have to pander to him at every turn to keep him in the party. Shines in combat though. Also Gord Mariott's performance was worse in 2EE than 1EE.

    Rasaad is easily the second best companion. Out of all 6, his quests and dialogue seem the least out of place when added on to BG1 and 2.

    Neera... I see what you were going for in Neera, dear writers of Overhaul, but a character as 'quirky' as her is a recent trend in comedy that doesn't match up with the campiness and style of the original games, so its extremely obvious that Neera is a new addition. Not to mention that she practically screams "t3h PeNgU1N oF d00m," as @KidCarnival so eloquently put it.

    Wilson... Wasted Potential: The NPC. Sure, a bear companion's been done before, and as a minor deity of Rashemen to boot, but Overhaul REALLY dropped the ball on this companion. Wilson has hardly any dialogue at all! Nobody reacts to a freaking 700 pound grizzly bear lumbering through the streets of Athkatla or fighting at your side! And where are the roleplaying options for Rangers and Druids? Come on! And that's just his literary failings. Literally everyone is more useful in combat than Wilson, a bear who is supposed to fill the role of a Kensai. Not being able to use equipment just hurts his fighting ability so much that a humanoid Kensai is a direct upgrade to him. Such a disappointment.

    Hexxat reeks of Special Snowflake and its obvious that whoever was writing her turned her into their little pet project. A vampire NPC with 20 STR and DEX? Are you kidding me? Oogh, and the way she threatens you like she's some kind of badass. Lady, you're a straight-up unkitted Thief; anyone could kill your dumb ass. Get your own game and quit hogging my spotlight. Clara gets ctrl+y'd every time I start a new game and enter the Copper Coronet.
  • MadrictMadrict Member Posts: 141
    Dorn......so I can finally have a m/m romance.....
  • ifupaulineifupauline Member Posts: 405
    Baeloth, his character is rather cliche but he is cool and have a sense of humour. Remind me Edwin.
  • MusignyMusigny Member Posts: 1,027
    I cannot select my favourite answer : none.
    Probably because of their romances (well I exclude Baeloth and Wilson just in case you wonder about them).
  • GallowglassGallowglass Member Posts: 3,356
    Flashburn said:

    Wilson... Wasted Potential: The NPC.

    Yes, they could have done so much more with Wilson. It wouldn't make much sense for a bear to be wearing armour and wielding swords, but even if they'd simply allowed his kit to equip rings and amulets (like that bear in NWN), then he'd have been a much more practicable addition to the party.

    I've actually completed a full run through to the end of ToB with Wilson in the party (as a front-liner, since he can't do anything else), which I suspect most players haven't bothered to do. Of course it's do-able, but the focus at several points becomes "How can I keep Wilson alive in this next battle?", which is rather an unwelcome distraction. Undoubtedly any other front-line character in the game is a stronger choice than Wilson, from a power-gaming perspective.

    Also, his banter and other dialogue is very sparse, and (as you say) it's strange that no-one reacts to the presence of a bloody great bear in the party, and I agree that it'd have been very natural for there to be some class-specific interaction with Druids and Rangers, perhaps even a quest. Thus he's pretty thin from a role-playing perspective too.

    So yes, they could have made so much more out of Wilson, he could have been a really worthwhile additional NPC.

    HOWEVER, after saying all that, we must remember that he was only ever intended as an Easter Egg, a nice little surprise, not as a fully-developed character whom you're seriously expected to include in your long-term party. Perhaps our expectations of an Easter Egg were distorted by the experience with Baeloth in BG1ee, who turned out to be so much more than a basic Easter Egg.

    Thus I don't think it's fair to ask Beamdog to add in more dialogue and story. The one thing which I reckon they could do with little effort, and which would add a lot to Wilson's potential without seeming too implausible, would be to enable him to wear rings and amulets.
  • shawneshawne Member Posts: 3,239
    @Nonnahswriter: It amazes me how, every time I think through Hexxat's storyline, it just gets worse and worse. To wit, I recently realized that if the whole point of Hexxat's SoA quest is to upgrade the Casque so that she can reach Korkorran's lair in ToB, how did Phreya get there first? What an utter mess.
  • NonnahswriterNonnahswriter Member Posts: 2,520
    shawne said:

    @Nonnahswriter: It amazes me how, every time I think through Hexxat's storyline, it just gets worse and worse. To wit, I recently realized that if the whole point of Hexxat's SoA quest is to upgrade the Casque so that she can reach Korkorran's lair in ToB, how did Phreya get there first? What an utter mess.

    Yeah. It's like they had a team of writers work on her, and none of them talked to each other.
  • shawneshawne Member Posts: 3,239
    edited June 2015

    Yeah. It's like they had a team of writers work on her, and none of them talked to each other.

    According to Andrew Foley, the blame for that would seem to fall squarely on Philip Daigle's shoulders: he and Dave Gross did the outline and design for all four characters, and Daigle oversaw the stories (which may explain why three of them have the exact same endpoint of confronting a canon D&D character you can't defeat).

    I think the reason this particular failure is so frustrating is because Hexxat could have solved so many problems simultaneously - you could finally play an Evil party that no longer required you to take a specific role for basic functionality, and hey, Viconia wouldn't be the token female anymore! They had a whole entire year to develop her, and the end result is something that reads like a first draft.

    In terms of mod alternatives, all I've been able to find are One Day NPCs like Alassa or Hessa, future prospects like @Glam_Vrock 's Vynd (which doesn't solve the tokenism problem), or Valen (who is both EE-incompatible and in desperate need of a modern remake). It just sucks, and I doubt it's ever going to get any better.
  • GrumGrum Member, Mobile Tester Posts: 2,100
    I chose Neera. She is passable in BG1, and makes for a very unique playthrough if you are willing to roll with it.

    EX: I was playing a half-orc barbarian (never had formal training in Candlekeep, helped with manual labor as nobody thought a half-orc could do more than that). Not a bad person, but had something of a chip on his shoulder. Picked up Neera, empathizing with her not fitting in because of what she is.

    Nimbul ambushed us in Nashkel. Neera cast magic missile...which turned into a cow which fell from the sky and killed half the town. My reputation dropped immediately to 1. Every surviving guard turned hostile, and a bounty hunter joined in the attack against us.

    When the party staggered into Beregost, they headed to the smithy to pick up some arms. The flaming fist were waiting for them, attacked, and killed the party.

    That wild surge completely changed the game and made for an excellent (if short) playthrough.

    EX2: I started a no-reload run with an elven ranger. Neera cast a spell, it wild surged into a portal to the abyss. The elf stared in horror as a demon came out and ripped him in half.


    If you are enjoy those kinds of things happening, then she is great to have around. And if you stick it out with her into BG2, she turns all kinds of overpowered. Once wild magic stabilizes, every single lvl 1 spell spot can be used to cast horrid wiltering. Combine that with improved alacrity, for quick spell casting, and she is a 1 woman nuclear bomb. Then add in Imoen with the Robe of Vecna, and you are dropping AOE clouds of death so quickly that any group of enemies will wilt away.


    ------------------


    Second choice goes to Rasaad. I made him second because he is so painfully useless in BG1. At least Neera is entertaining and can still cast some useful spells. Rasaad? Sprint up, through a punch, get impaled. I mean, it's realistic that an unarmed man charging someone in full plate is going to get skewered...but still, why take the unarmed man with you?

    By BG2 he turns into a beast though. Ever see an unarmed man punch a dragon to death? I have. And it is glorious.


    --------------------

    Third goes to Baeloth. Because that voice acting. He just oozes character, and can fit in almost anywhere.

    --------------------

    Fourth comes Dorn. I've only used him in BG1, where he was evil, but believably so. I haven't bought the BG2 content because from what I've heard it devolves into a slaughter-fest that I just can't see any sane person joining in.

    Dorn: "Let's attack the compound full of paladins!"

    Edwin: Asks why...

    Viconia: Responds that she'd prefer to NOT be burned at the stake again...

    Korgan: Is willing to go along, if nothing else than to have a good fight, but doesn't see the profit.

    Charname: Derpity derp derp, I like xp?

    I just don't see a sane person joining in with such an obvious criminal. I can see a sane person fighting alongside smart criminals who don't bring the law down on their heads, but Dorn just walks around killing everything. I might try it out, but it just doesn't sound like my cup of tea.

    -------------------------

    Fifth is Wilson.

    I used him before. He died and I let him stay dead. He is just a horrible character. As in, Rasaad BG1 bad, without BG2 to look forward to.

    --------------------------

    Sixth is Hexaat.

    I won't touch that DLC, because I haven't heard anything good about her.
  • shawneshawne Member Posts: 3,239
    edited June 2015
    @Grum: It's worth pointing out (because, for some reason, a lot of people tend to ignore this) that Dorn's initial actions in BG2 aren't his own choice. He doesn't have a say in whether he'd prefer to walk into a church and kill everything in sight - he's a blackguard, and he's obeying the commands of his patron. Dorn doesn't like what he's being forced to do, because it's over the top. That's the whole impetus for his SoA quest.

    Dialogue from your first run-in with him: "I've put countless men to the blade in Ur-Gothoz's name--women and children too. It's one thing to slaughter the occasional village, but lately what he asks is more specific... and often more dangerous. At first, I enjoyed the work, drunk on the power Ur-Gothoz provides... Now...? It matters not."

    And just before Resurrection Gorge is triggered: "Curse Ur-Gothoz, curse the day I first heard his name, and curse me for not fleeing the moment it fouled my ears! I've followed his orders come hell, horror, and high water, and for what?"
  • GrumGrum Member, Mobile Tester Posts: 2,100
    shawne said:

    @Grum: It's worth pointing out (because, for some reason, a lot of people tend to ignore this) that Dorn's initial actions in BG2 aren't his own choice. He doesn't have a say in whether he'd prefer to walk into a church and kill everything in sight - he's a blackguard, and he's obeying the commands of his patron. Dorn doesn't like what he's being forced to do, because it's over the top. That's the whole impetus for his SoA quest.

    Aye, I get that. But what sane person *joins* him in that?

    Evil charname: "I'm on a quest...to get revenge against this archmage who imprisoned me, tortured me, and stole all of my stuff."

    Dorn: "My denomic patron wants me to walk into a building full of the most powerful paladin order in this part of the world and to start swinging my sword."

    Evil charname: "That sounds like an exceptionally bad idea."

    Dorn: "I have no choice. My denomic master is making me walk into a death trap, which will certainly lead to the full might of the paladin order, and probably the Amnian authorities as well (whom we know have very powerful spellcasters who can monitor all magical activity in the city we are in and can teleport in), down on our heads."

    Evil charname: "Good luck with that."


    ---


    I mean, if Charname is wis8 or lower...has serious murder impulse controls...is also a blackguard...then I can see him joining in on a suicide charge. But otherwise? No.

    To me, a proper evil character will be like Edwin. Murder a cowled wizard who is investigating him. Infiltrate and betray a thieves' guild. Raid a tomb and murder the undead guardian for forbidden lore.

    Those are all very evil acts. But he doesn't do anything that would overtly bring the full force of the law down on his head.

    Korgan is another example of an evil character. He hunts down and murderaxes his former comrades over slights made against him. That's...pretty bad. He revels in carnage and demands to be paid for everything. But hey, he doesn't do anything overtly illegal. He works in the system.


    ---

    To me, that is believable evil. The kind of evil that I can see happening. That a sane person could go along with. "Sure, let's help the wizard kill the liche who is trying to safeguard magic that should not be known. It'll help with my quest!"

    "The dwarf killed two comrades for insulting him and wants to hunt down the rest because they stole the loot? Yeah, loot sounds good. Note to self, don't insult the dwarf." An evil character could completely help with that, especially to get the services of a powerful dwarven battlerager.


    But Dorn? I just don't see it. Not even for his powerful services, because the heat he should logically bring down would far outweigh that. In addition, because he can't control his actions, you would always need to sleep with one eye open incase his demon patron doesn't want you to be the new lord of murder and uses Dorn to chunkify you when your guard is down. :persevere:
  • shawneshawne Member Posts: 3,239
    I don't know, I think that if you can rationalize bringing Edwin along - someone who openly and frequently plots against you - you can extend the same logic/risk assessment to Dorn.
  • KidCarnivalKidCarnival Member Posts: 3,747
    shawne said:

    I don't know, I think that if you can rationalize bringing Edwin along - someone who openly and frequently plots against you - you can extend the same logic/risk assessment to Dorn.

    Except Edwin merely wants to search some scroll and maybe kill some undead to get there, not declare open war on a big, influential organization in public.
  • FlashburnFlashburn Member Posts: 1,847
    edited June 2015
    @Gallowglass
    Going to have to disagree with you that Wilson is underdeveloped because he's an easter egg. Even if he is one, its not in the spirit of BG2 to have a party member that doesn't have banters and interactions with other characters. That would've worked in BG1 where party members are silent most of the time, but not in BG2 where everyone's got a personality. At least Baeloth commented on the places you visited when he was in the party.

    As for Wilson's equipment restrictions, I would've relaxed them too. Okku could wear rings and amulets and drink all potions, so I don't see why Wilson shouldn't be able to either. Heck, I'd even let him wear belts around his neck like a collar and even use Ioun Stones. Those would be a big help for him since he gains smaller and less meaningful advantages per level than Okku does. Okku starts at a higher level than Wilson because MotB commands it, but by the time ToB rolls around, Wilson will be climbing upwards in levels even faster than Okku, so it wouldn't hurt to have Wilson's abilities improve more at epic levels.
  • shawneshawne Member Posts: 3,239

    Except Edwin merely wants to search some scroll and maybe kill some undead to get there, not declare open war on a big, influential organization in public.

    Edwin is pretty open about the fact that as soon as he deciphers the Nether Scroll, you're going to be his first victim. If you're confident enough in your abilities that you can tolerate such a clear, direct and personal threat to you, you can handle a bunch of goody-good paladins (who, let's be honest, would smite you on sight for being Evil anyway).
  • KidCarnivalKidCarnival Member Posts: 3,747
    If I was evil, yes. If I was merely chaotic neutral, I could be both confident to handle Edwin (one person, hunted by his own kind) AND opposed to slaughter a large group of powerful people who are not hated or hunted by other groups (at least none that would join my efforts with Dorn).
  • shawneshawne Member Posts: 3,239
    Why would a Chaotic Neutral character associate with Dorn in the first place, though? He willingly gave up his own freedom and bound himself to a demon for power - that's not a decision the CN alignment would look kindly upon.
  • SmilingSwordSmilingSword Member Posts: 827
    edited June 2015
    shawne said:

    Yeah. It's like they had a team of writers work on her, and none of them talked to each other.

    According to Andrew Foley (which may explain why three of them have the exact same endpoint of confronting a canon D&D character you can't defeat).
    What do you mean can't defeat? I beat Szass Tam, "if it was Szass Tam, can't remember and that's the only Red Wizard name I know besides Edwin." It was one hell of a fight, you can't kill him, but he does give up. He stops the fight and gives you a weird whip wand thing. He didn't actually plead for his unlife or anything, but he ran away, and that's a win in my book.
  • shawneshawne Member Posts: 3,239

    What do you mean can't defeat? I beat Szass Tam, "if it was Szass Tam, can't remember and that's the only Red Wizard name I know besides Edwin." It was one hell of a fight, you can't kill him, but he does give up. He stops the fight and gives you a weird whip wand thing. He didn't actually plead for his unlife or anything, but he ran away, and that's a win in my book.

    In this game where you kill fire giants and pit fiends and planetars? The reason Szass Tam, Alorgoth and L "get away" is because of their status as canonical D&D characters - they literally have plot armor. One instance wouldn't be such a big deal, but three out of four? That's just lazy oversight, pure and simple. Like, at no point did anyone look at the big picture and notice something as glaring as "the endgame for three of the four EE NPCs is pretty much structured the same".
  • KidCarnivalKidCarnival Member Posts: 3,747
    shawne said:

    Why would a Chaotic Neutral character associate with Dorn in the first place, though? He willingly gave up his own freedom and bound himself to a demon for power - that's not a decision the CN alignment would look kindly upon.

    Probably. I was just making an example that taking Edwin (not bloodthirsty, not out to declare war on a city you are unfamiliar with) and Dorn (planning that exact thing) are not the same thing. Same with Viconia, for that matter. She and Edwin mind their own business, even if it's plotting or worshipping an evil deity, instead of striking openly against a big group of people.
    Not even every kind of evil charname can justify to take Dorn along, but there are roleplay reasons why someone of any non-evil alignment would - at least temporarily - take Edwin, Viconia or Korgan. (Hexxat and the whole vampire thing might be different.) They all have a "frenemy" of good alignment to underline this - Edwin with Alora, Viconia with Rasaad, Korgan with Keldorn. The closest Dorn gets to that is a semi friendly comment to Kagain, who is (on paper) evil, too.
    Korgan is your good old adventuring mercenary; his bloodlust is way more contained than Dorn's and doesn't cause any issues for you. Viconia is the damsel in distress once more. Edwin helps you with the quest before offering to join. Dorn asks you to slaughter a paladin order right away. And you don't see how he is not like the others?
  • KidCarnivalKidCarnival Member Posts: 3,747
    I find both Kagain and Korgan fairly easy to justify in a good aligned party. Both are mercenaries with a ton of experience. You just can't hire a mercenary and expect him to have taken a vow of poverty and be reluctant to fight.
  • DullSkullTheSecondDullSkullTheSecond Member Posts: 243
    edited June 2015
    Dorn is too powerful to not be my favorite

    EDIT: Hexxat is my least favorite, to me she is just a bit too much hater bait.
    Post edited by DullSkullTheSecond on
  • GallowglassGallowglass Member Posts: 3,356

    Dorn is too powerful to not be my favorite.

    In BG1ee, I can see the appeal of that viewpoint. He's very strong in BG1ee.

    However, in BG2ee, Dorn is not outstandingly powerful, at least not once you start picking up STR-boosting items so that Dorn's STR is no longer streets ahead of anyone else. In fact, once you get other warrior characters well-developed and properly-equipped, Dorn is nothing special ... and if you take the quest-option of turning Dorn into a fallen-Blackguard by repudiating both of his potential patrons (which the story-line seems to be pushing as the "canonical option", even though it's a daft and implausible choice), then Dorn is actually left as a distinctly weak character, out-classed by most of the other warrior-types.
  • MusignyMusigny Member Posts: 1,027
    edited June 2015
    One thing I like in BG2EE is the huge work on the scripting/AI behind the scenes. From that perspective I am glad to play all of the new NPCs.
    Post edited by Musigny on
  • ChorazyGlusChorazyGlus Member Posts: 151
    Dorn is the best one overall; voice acting, new scenes, items from quests. And Wilson is like monk on steroids:paws dmg progression, hp and ms.
  • NightRevanNightRevan Member Posts: 81

    I can't use Neera without EEing her to not wild and even then I don't like her much ...

    I sympathise with finding the unreliability of wild magic (at least in BG1ee and early BG2ee) pretty frustrating, but 'keepering her to "not wild" surely makes complete nonsense of both her back-story and her quest-line. I can't see the point of ever taking her at all, unless you go along with her being wild - just take some other Mage instead!
    It does make for some interesting and funny moments, recently I was doing the Naskel mines and had just gone into the second level and engaged a couple of kobolds where Neera cast Nahal's Reckless Dweomer and ended up gating in a nabussu (not sure if that's the right spelling). The upside was that the kobolds were no longer a problem, and suddenly the miners were right there were demons in the mine :smile: . Running away from it through the mine was interesting (particularly when it followed to the first level .
  • GallowglassGallowglass Member Posts: 3,356

    ... and engaged a couple of kobolds where Neera cast Nahal's Reckless Dweomer and ended up gating in a nabussu ...

    Lol! The lesson, I suggest, is not to cast NRD at low levels. (Later on, with more levels and better equipment, it's less risky.)

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