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Your favorite EE NPC

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  • SharGuidesMyHandSharGuidesMyHand Member Posts: 2,580
    Dorn - the evil equivalent to Minsc (but better!).
  • ChorazyGlusChorazyGlus Member Posts: 151
    @typo_tilly I meant it in a way that both Wilson and monk attack with their bare "hands", not by actual classes/kits. And to answer your question I think that'd make him bearable.
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  • NonnahswriterNonnahswriter Member Posts: 2,520

    both Wilson and monk attack with their bare "hands", not by actual classes/kits. And to answer your question I think that'd make him bearable.

    I see what you did there.
  • NimranNimran Member Posts: 4,875

    both Wilson and monk attack with their bare "hands", not by actual classes/kits. And to answer your question I think that'd make him bearable.

    I see what you did there.
    HE didn't even see what he did there.
  • GallowglassGallowglass Member Posts: 3,356
    Nimran said:

    both Wilson and monk attack with their bare "hands", not by actual classes/kits. And to answer your question I think that'd make him bearable.

    I see what you did there.
    HE didn't even see what he did there.
    Lol! Have yourself a :cookie:, @Nimran!
  • dunbardunbar Member Posts: 1,603
    My biggest "if only" with BG is: "If only Baeloth appeared in BG2 as well". I love his personality and sense of humour as well as his functionality (amongst other things his effectiveness with darts has made me look at them in a whole new light).

    Neera on the other hand (much as I, like some others, really wanted to like her) isn't as much fun as she seems at first sight. Whilst I can work with characters whose motives are unreliable I can't afford to have a team member whose performance is unreliable - I know that's the whole 'fun' point of Neera, but I just can't work that way.
  • killerrabbitkillerrabbit Member Posts: 402
    @Neverused I wanted to bump this comment because it's perspective that I think is pretty prevalent but rarely makes it to the forums. I don't think most people "play evil often" and if an adventure is half evil content / half good content there are plenty of us who miss out on the new content.

    I think the "fully playable evil party" was a idea that starting in the modding community -- and the devs have decided that that community is their niche. But, while I think the modders are fantastic, [*] that isn't the only 'niche' who likes the games. I found the game when I decided to ask google something like "did they ever make BG 3?" and google said: "they remade BG 1".

    I think if they asked *everyone* who bought the game something like "how interested are you in new evil content" the numbers would be much, much lower than you would guess from the comments on the forum.

    The devs were surprised to find how many people bought BG1 and how many of the people were using crappy laptops. But they've never put two and two together -- that there are people out there who don't identify as gamers, who don't identify as modders who want new bioware-like content and not Evil Edition content.


    [*] How can you dislike creativity and generosity? If people want to make make new content and give it away I see no reason to criticize. None. It's all fantastic. Even blonde Imoen ;)
    Neverused said:

    As requested, least favorite is Dorn; I can't bring myself to play a hardcore evil runthrough and there's absolutely no other reason why you would help a guy who introduces himself by attempting to attack an order of paladins.

    . . .

    Again, I don't play Evil often, and we meet Hexxat as she flat-out murders the woman she dominated to help her. After she begs for mercy. What's a Good or even Neutral party supposed to do? Is there any reasonable way to let her live? All the other Vampires in the story end up as mortal (... Wait, they're undead. So... Non-mortal?) enemies, so if you've met any of them I can't think of a good non-meta reason to even consider her joining your side.

    . . .

  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 16,315
    edited June 2015

    I think the "fully playable evil party" was a idea that starting in the modding community

    I don't know about that. I can remember playing the game long before I was aware of any mods and thinking "I wish I could have more than 3 evil NPC's in my party" ( I didn't own ToB). I'd be surprised if Bioware wasn't thinking at least partly along those lines when they made Sarevok a recruitable NPC.
  • KidCarnivalKidCarnival Member Posts: 3,747
    Same here, I was used to have a selection of NPCs for every alignment from BG1, and BG2 just felt strange because it was not possible. I don't mind mixed parties, and often mix for roleplay, banter or both, but I don't want to be forced to do it.
  • ChorazyGlusChorazyGlus Member Posts: 151
    edited June 2015
    @Nimran Truth is I could not decide if I want to press like or insightful. Also, when I thought about my post, I kept deciding between "It'd make him unbearably op/unbearable/barely bearable/bearable/" Too much cheesy bear here so I decided to make it more bearable for reading. Now it seems I lost my bearing with this post again, so bear with me. Here you go, more chessy lines;)

    Edit: confused bear/bare I'm so out of here... Huh seems like correct version according to internet is bear with me (bcs bare with me is related only to strip poker/nudist websites) so I had it right before first edit.
  • PaladinPaladin Member Posts: 335
    Dorn is perfect for my evil teams. He pairs nicely with Korgan as a frontline bruiser. I would take Korgan and Dorn toe-to-toe with Keldorn and Minsc, any day of the week.
  • GenryuGenryu Member Posts: 372
    edited July 2015
    I never really gave wild mage a chance in the vanilla game, the randomness of the class really put me off.

    But I really enjoyed Neera and her questline in the EE. After taking her through BG1 & 2, the wild mage class really began to grow on me (Well except for whenever wild surged took away all my gold without me noticing!).
    Post edited by Genryu on
  • shawneshawne Member Posts: 3,239

    I think the "fully playable evil party" was a idea that starting in the modding community

    You've got it backwards - the mods were a response to something that was missing from the game, not the other way around.
  • killerrabbitkillerrabbit Member Posts: 402
    edited July 2015
    shawne said:

    I think the "fully playable evil party" was a idea that starting in the modding community

    You've got it backwards - the mods were a response to something that was missing from the game, not the other way around.
    But the question is: 'was that a widespread perception'? And my answer is no. Bioware's answer to requests for evil narratives was "our games are heroic" (but if you want to make evil mods, have at it). Which is the same response that TSR gave -- you can play evil but we're not really going to support it.

    Can you think of a 1st or 2nd edition module that didn't have either a heroic or a neutral plot? Who sold more books -- Drizzt or Cyric? I think that D&D -- and especially the forgotten realms -- has been about heroic stories for a long time. Can you think of a tournament game that didn't have a "foil the evil plot" narrative? When I was playing tabletop I only knew of one group that played evil and I gave them a wide berth (and they had some some pretty unpleasant fantasies that I'll not describe here).

    I like well developed evil characters with complex motivations. The Master, Moriarty, Irenicus, Dracula, and Ixos are all great. And all need to be defeated -- by the likes of virtuous Mazzy, by complex figures like Elric or by geniuses like The Doctor. I like villains with complex motivations and all sorts of heroes.

    And I'm willing to leave the answer to science. Beamdog should put out survey, ask the fanbase "which would you prefer -- more evil content or more heroic content?" and post the numbers

    If it turns out that lots of people are a-hankerin' to play the villain, if tons of fans that think that slaughtering a wedding party sounds kewl I will come here and say: I was wrong. It's just some freak accident that 98% of fantasy stories follow a hero-defeats-the-villain narrative. I've got a napkin around my neck and crow on the plate -- let's see if I have to eat it.

    Or who knows? Maybe the numbers will show that Bioware got it right.
  • killerrabbitkillerrabbit Member Posts: 402
    Flashburn said:

    @Gallowglass
    Going to have to disagree with you that Wilson is underdeveloped because he's an easter egg. Even if he is one, its not in the spirit of BG2 to have a party member that doesn't have banters and interactions with other characters. That would've worked in BG1 where party members are silent most of the time, but not in BG2 where everyone's got a personality. At least Baeloth commented on the places you visited when he was in the party.

    I actually think the issue of his banters is pretty hairy subject. The few banters he does have are pretty funny but they are few and far between. Every time a new one came up I thought "Good to hear from you but why did it take you so long to contribute something?! Why the long pause"? Still, his endgame narrative made me lol and want to give him a big hug. All of which proves that he does have a tale -- just not a very long one.

  • shawneshawne Member Posts: 3,239
    edited July 2015

    But the question is: 'was that a widespread perception'?

    Based on the number of evil mod NPCs that have popped up in the years since? It would certainly appear so.

    And my answer is no. Bioware's answer to requests for evil narratives was "our games are heroic" (but if you want to make evil mods, have at it). Which is the same response that TSR gave -- you can play evil but we're not really going to support it.

    I'm going to need you to provide a source for that, because every pre-EA BioWare game I've ever played has both allowed and supported Evil playthroughs, whether it's enslaving Death's Hand in "Jade Empire" or slaughtering half your party in "Knights of the Old Republic" or betraying the Seer in "Hordes of the Underdark". The options are there for those players who choose to pursue it. There are evil NPCs and evil parties and evil endings in all those games.
  • killerrabbitkillerrabbit Member Posts: 402
    edited July 2015
    shawne said:



    Based on the number of evil mod NPCs that have popped up in the years since? It would certainly appear so.

    But now we are back to step one -- I do acknowledge that there is niche of a niche of the modding community that wants to create and consume evil content. And I have no criticisms! Create, give away, enjoy.

    But my point is that the opinions of that niche do not represent the positions of all the people who like these games.
    shawne said:

    every pre-EA BioWare game I've ever played has both allowed and supported Evil playthroughs, whether it's enslaving Death's Hand in "Jade Empire" or slaughtering half your party in "Knights of the Old Republic"

    Never played those -- if evil is a fully playable option and not a BG like option than the chances are they weren't trying to keep to the flavor of the environment.
    shawne said:

    or betraying the Seer in "Hordes of the Underdark". The options are there for those players who choose to pursue it. There are evil NPCs and evil parties and evil endings in all those games.

    Now if you are into the late NWN expansions then we are in the decline of Bioware story and the 'put Ed Greenwood in a back office" time at WTC. And we saw how that ended. Bioware started its decline, wizards invented 4th edition and lost touch with the fan base . . .

    I played HoU and didn't like it. Wasn't horrible, wasn't any good. Tarnished the bioware name for me. (and IWD2 tarnished the Black Isle name -- although J.E. Sawyer has more than made up for that with PoE)
    shawne said:

    I'm going to need you to provide a source for that

    I'll be honest -- that is a completely fair request but I'm not going to comply because I am much too lazy. Sounds like 2, maybe 3 hours of opening archived forums, setting up a search tool, trying to find the right url to put into the wayback machine and so on. Too much like what I do in real life but without the paycheck :)

    If anyone is less lazy that I am I remember the point being made by Ray Mazurka (sp?) and David Gaider. Also, what-his-name, the dev who would actually respond to yakman. The form was something like "we will always make heroic narratives"

    While not complying with a request to spend 2-3 hour gathering info is bad form, so is ignoring some of the points brought up. :) Any reply to the tone of 1 & 2 ed modules, of the popularity of heroic characters like Drizzt or dominance of heroic narratives in fantasy novels? Because I still think "give us more evil" isn't a popular request -- I think it is niche request.
  • shawneshawne Member Posts: 3,239
    So you can't be bothered to educate yourself, but you want me to entertain your blatant guesswork?

    image
  • killerrabbitkillerrabbit Member Posts: 402
    You have me exactly. I am a poorly educated person who desires and values your attention.

    But since I cannot get the approval I need from you I suggest we no longer respond to each other's comments. You don't want to waste your time with ill informed guesswork and I find your contributions so insightful, your style of argument so elegant that the very thought of the withdraw of your gaze causes me pain; I will just have to go without.

    To spare you the trouble, I just viewed your Shania Twain meme. No need to repost it.
  • brunardobrunardo Member Posts: 526
    Baeloth awesome, shouldve had him in BG2, Rasaad squishy but monks are fun and best quests in my opinion. Neera great dialague best mage option next to edwin. dorn great dialogoe, strong npc and great quests....wilson what was the point and hexxat mixed bag.
  • DragonKingDragonKing Member Posts: 1,977
    Neera is love.
  • VallmyrVallmyr Member, Mobile Tester Posts: 2,459

    Neera is love.

    Neera is life.
  • DragonKingDragonKing Member Posts: 1,977
    Since everyone gave a though out opinion here I go...

    Neera- The only negative that Neera had from me is that she is a half elf. Elves are the most over fucking used character type in fantasy media. Yes I get games and movies at dominated by Eurocentric concepts and ideas, but games are at a point where I will rate a fantasy game no lower then a 5, no matter how bad it is, just for not using freaking elves!

    With that said, I love Neera's bubbly personality, because its a mask she wears despite the none stop chasing from red wizards. Add onto the fact she is a wizard, arcane caster are my favorite class type. That already puts her above everyone else. Yea I can't buy from the red wizards because I romanced her despite the fact I literally raped the entire compound, but so no interest in killing simple red wizard merchant... who literally just let us walk into the compound. Wild mages are also my favorite class, and I've never had a surge just destroy my gold...

    Dorn- Him and my chaotic wild mage were like frienemies. While he was like, "lets make it bleed." I was like, "no, they are more useful as puppets/tools to a greater goal of destruction and control. Yes killing them now will bring momentary satisfaction, making them suffer over a persoid of time or psychologically ruining them will feed us for weeks.". Add onto the fact I talked shit about his patron every step of the way. Overall he is a useful tool and is controlled quite easily. I haven't played tob yet or really dived into SoA outside of doing his quest, so I wondered if he actually makes a statement about charname and Viconia following in love? I know between those to, Viconia makes a statement about love tricking dorn, which leads to one of my favorite conversation

    Viconia: So here we are again. The distrusted, much-loathed outsiders.
    Dorn: Say what you will about , 's no fool.
    Viconia: You say only fools would trust us?
    Dorn: Only fools would trust us to go against our best interests.
    Viconia: Then we're in the company of fools, I fear.
    Dorn: They're fortunate that we're here to guide them.
    Viconia: But what will we guide them to?
    Dorn: Victory and power. What else is there?
    Viconia: There's love.
    Dorn: Love? Have you lost your mind, you… Ah. I get it now.
    Viconia: I had you going, though.
    Dorn: You did, I admit it.
    Viconia: I can't believe you fell for that.
    Dorn: I guess I'm just a fool for love.
    Viconia: A fool, at any rate.
    Dorn: Have mercy, drow! I admitted you got me.
    Viconia: I'll show you as much mercy as you show your enemies.
    Dorn: Gods help me. I'm doomed.

    Rasaad- never really used him, plus I don't like how close his name is to my wild mage Rashaad.

    Baeloth- I fucking hate him, really I do.his attitude alone makes me won't to bash his head in. Oh, you're one of the top 5 spellcasters in all the realm? The top 5 caster can probably solo the whole realm lore wise, so what the fuck do you need protection for again? Being a Sorcerer with a hacked spell book gives you points I will emit, but I'd take Neera any day of the week over you!

    Wilson- since I've never played Rasaad, I've never met him, hell I never even finished that one quest by the wildmage in the camp.

    Hexxat/Clara- I like them both, my chaotic evil wildmage tried get a room with her, but sadly no go. Which was even more annoying when hexxat revealed Clara's back story. I never got fat into the game with her or even got her quest started. I keep accidentally saving over my evil runs when playing my good character. Never started her romance because when I play rpg, I try to put at the very least my likeness into the game. So 90% of the time my character is usually male with wooly dark hair and brown skinned human. Unfortunately I'm too lazy to do paintings and upload them iin BG. I so like that she was a vampire and not another fucking elf though.
  • EmpyrialEmpyrial Member Posts: 107
    I really wanted to vote Dorn because I loved him in BGI but he just fell down so hard in BGII for me. His pointless bloodshed made his earlier sort of "evil against evil" complexity completely vanish and he turned out to be so 2D for me.

    I really liked Rasaad's indecision over how to handle the Two-Fold problem. For someone who's dedicated his life to discipline, he's truly driven by his passions. His first passion, revenge, seems right but sort of feels wrong to him. His second passion, his faith, feels right but sort of seems wrong to him. The Two-Fold issue completely drags both of those passions into conflict with each other in him. He seemed believable to me and I empathized with him because he just wants to do right and has no clear vision of what right is. Is right getting revenge and if so does that make it ok for him to betray his faith? Does he stay true to his order and does that make it right to forgo the revenge he believes his brother deserves? It's a hard question, which is why I liked him.

    Neera was just... shrill. I didn't like her voice, her nonchalance, and just so much about her. I get it fits her character, but I just didn't like her character at all then.

    *Avoids beating the dead "Hexxat suxx" horse a little too*
  • VallmyrVallmyr Member, Mobile Tester Posts: 2,459
    edited July 2015

    Pink hair.

    Let me repeat that.

    Pink.

    Hair.

    Why is this even an argument, I mean COME ON.

    THIS.

    Neera is like a less-cute Alora but in exchange you get more character development and backstory.

    I love Neera! I haven't done her romance yet since I rarely play BG2:EE but I most certainly need to. She's cheerful, non-caring, and does whatever she feels like following her whimsy! Since my main characters are Chaotic Good and Chaotic Neutral I can definitely see where she's coming from.

    Rasaad. I feel like he'd make a good best friend for my PC. I haven't used him yet so I can't comment much but I definitely feel like he'd be the kind of guy to keep my charname in check and stop doing stupid crap just like best friend IRL.

    DORN THE GUY BORN TO FORLORN THE. . .um. . . morn. Something. Rhyming. Anyway~ I like Dorn. Cool Blackguard in service to the darkest of gods! Haven't used him in BG2:EE since I haven't played it much but I definitely like him in BG:EE. I like his attitude and we can talk about the dark powers of necromancy while looking up at the stars at night~

    BAELOTH THE ENTERTAINER! If my charname, Val'myr, was made CE instead of CN he'd be Baeloth. A strong sorcerer of unmatched power with great wit and charm. His hair is even the best <3. I really hope he makes it into BG2:EE someday.

    Hexxat, oh how I want to hate and love you. Undead rogue girl with a cool accent and mysterious background? Neat! Her misunderstood soul seeks LOVE! But at the same time her flippant nature can be annoying sometimes. Clara seemed pretty cool because I like people with broken memories/personality. Makes for good stories and stuff. Too bad she died way early on. I guess she's my least favorite? /shrug.

    Wilson. What? This guy/bear/whatever is an npc? Oh.

    Well.
    I should probably look into getting him at some point before I write anything about the bear-guy-person-thing.

    I'd really love to do a run of BG:EE with

    Charname
    Alora
    Neera
    Dorn
    Rasaad
    Imoen

    (Sorry Baeloth no room for you QQ)

    then BG2:EE

    Charname
    Neera
    Dorn
    Rasaad
    Yoshimo (To Imoen later)

    While my sixth I'd like to do with my Alora mod I want to make but since I haven't made that yet I'd settle on Mazzy. But then I think Dorn and Mazzy would murder each other. Hm. I should think this through more.
    Post edited by Vallmyr on
  • QuartzQuartz Member Posts: 3,853

    Viconia: So here we are again. The distrusted, much-loathed outsiders.
    Dorn: Say what you will about , 's no fool.
    Viconia: You say only fools would trust us?
    Dorn: Only fools would trust us to go against our best interests.
    Viconia: Then we're in the company of fools, I fear.
    Dorn: They're fortunate that we're here to guide them.
    Viconia: But what will we guide them to?
    Dorn: Victory and power. What else is there?
    Viconia: There's love.
    Dorn: Love? Have you lost your mind, you… Ah. I get it now.
    Viconia: I had you going, though.
    Dorn: You did, I admit it.
    Viconia: I can't believe you fell for that.
    Dorn: I guess I'm just a fool for love.
    Viconia: A fool, at any rate.
    Dorn: Have mercy, drow! I admitted you got me.
    Viconia: I'll show you as much mercy as you show your enemies.
    Dorn: Gods help me. I'm doomed.

    Most pieces of dialogue that Beamdog has written makes me cringe so hard. It's not like the writing here is innately bad, it's just that it's absolutely NOTHING like the dialogue in the original game in style, form, and characterization. "I had you going, though" sounds nothing at all like how Viconia would say something … I could go on. I can't stand their NPCs for this fact alone. It's like a bad fan mod.
  • CoM_SolaufeinCoM_Solaufein Member Posts: 2,607
    Neera, aka Aerie Part 2, :love:
  • ButtercheeseButtercheese Member Posts: 3,766
    I just read "Dorn" and "cheese" in the same sentence, so, uh, totally not biased decision.
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