Ch 8: Evil is as evil does

FrdNwsm

[I posted part of this in another folder, as a reply to a slightly different theme. But the last post in that thread was 18 months old, and it might be dead so I figured I'd repost here for some more current responses. ]

I understand that there are supposed to be quests for some characters in ToB? Neera for example? I can't seem to find them. Everything seems pretty linear so far, although I have only finished the Sara's Tush part and am heading out into the woods, so maybe they occur later on?

Also, I am trying doing two run throughs side-by-side. The good guys, whom you all know by now, and an all-evil run through, wherein I constituted the group by summoning a bunch of low lifes to the pocket plane. I have MC, Dorn, Sarevok (whom I dualed over to a mage ... doh!), Hexxat, Edwin and Viconia. BTW, that bit back in SoA where you have to choose a core group for two entire chapters is a really bad bit of game design, IMO. It totally screwed up my plan of rotating between good and evil groups, which was essential to MC's role as a schizophrenic Bhaalspawn. Anyway, the ones who were left out are way behind in development. Importing them into Ch 8 pumps them up a bit, but still leaves them short a few levels. Oh well, I can deal with that.

And bad to the bone they are. We rescued some merchant from a bunch of Yag-Sothoth's soldiers, earning us yet another dubious reputation point ... up to 18? Ack! However, MC managed to offset this, and forestall any grumbling, by coming back later and killing him just to be perverse; party rep dropped by 9! And there was great rejoicing. No, there really was! Everybody in the group gave MC a pat on the back and had a congratulatory comment. Also, the group dynamics and interactions are rather a bit different from the good party. Sarevok and Dorn trading insults? Worse yet ... Edwin putting the make on Viconia? Oh please!

However, the Bad Boyz have run into a snag with their career of criminal deeds. The problem lies with the fact that a Planetar of Justice is after Dorn. Well, ahem, one can hardly blame her, I suppose. Anyway, we killed off her crusader toadies and drove her away with heavy damage, but now we have to invade Heaven (or Arcadia, or Elysian Fields or some such goody-two-shoes spot) and erase our names from the Scroll of Justice, otherwise there will be more and more such attacks. Huh? Seriously? Is Torm or Tyr or whoever's in charge up there going to be fooled by such a ridiculous ploy?

I'm not quite sure what to make of this development.

Jarrakul

Well, it sounds like you've found Dorn's TOB quest. As for Neera's, it'll come up before too long.

Yannir

There's usually a trigger for the quest at some point in the main story. Fe. Hexxats ToB-quest doesn't trigger until you are in Amkethran. Rasaad is an exception, he just blurts out: "I need to go there!"

The Scroll of Justice is a magical item, btw. An artifact, actually. Once you're name is taken out, it cannot be re-written. Gods don't remember this stuff, they just hand out orders and forget about them.

FrdNwsm

Jarrakul said:

Well, it sounds like you've found Dorn's TOB quest. As for Neera's, it'll come up before too long.

Heh, well I assumed that was the case. It's just that the entire premise seemed rather silly. We hack into Heaven's computer records, erase the data about our criminal activities, and suddenly the Gods, and all their servants, INCLUDING THE PLANETAR WHOSE BUTT WE KICKED AND WHO SWORE REVENGE, suddenly forget all about us? Sounds like a rejected script from the old "Mission: Impossible" show.

As for Neera, she's in the good guys group, as is Imoen. That's why I dualed Sarevok to mage; the Bad Boyz were short on elemental spell power, and with no Bhaalspawn abilities whatsoever, he was just a plain old vanilla warrior type. Korgan would have been a better choice, since he can berserk and has dwarf resistances. Also, Edwin's good but he's only 1 caster. I want a backup in case he goes down during combat. Sarevok's a long term project, of course, but he'll be the healthiest mage around. He's got 150 or so HP already; give him Tenser's Transformation and he'll have what? 300? Probably the only mage around who can make that spell a viable combat tactic.

Which leads me to another question. In the other group, Imoen has been showing signs of developing Bhaalspawn powers, including possibly Slayer form in the future. This sounds like a major plot device; can ToB be finished without her presence? Probably a silly question since I see people talking about soloing the entire thing, but it does sound a bit peculiar to evade a major plot twist like that.

Wesley

It sounds like you've already started brawling in the Astral plane. In case you wanted to try again, it is possible to fast-talk your way through the entire quest without engaging in any combat. Pretty fun outsmarting a pair of silver dragons! In their mindless devotion to rules, they're like that character in Austin Powers who must answer any question if you ask it three times.

Jarrakul

I think the idea with the scroll is that it doesn't so much make specific individuals forget as it makes the whole Celestial Bureaucracy not realize they should be sending more hunters your way. Presumably they know about you, but everyone assumes someone else is handling it. Actually this whole thing would make much more sense in a fantasy setting inspired by Chinese folklore, where Celestial Bureaucracy is just the way the heavens work.

Ah, Jade Empire, if only you'd been a better game.

It's worth noting that Sarevok does have a hidden Bhaal power that synergizes with (but does not require) his fighter abilities. Basically, we'll occasionally (maybe 5% of the time, maybe less) do a Deathbringer Assault when he hits things, dealing 200 damage to the target in addition to his normal damage. It's pretty insane, as very few things in the game can take that kind of damage.

It's also entirely possible to complete the game without Imoen. Her Bhaal powers are more related to her personal character arc than they are to the main plot.

FrdNwsm

Wesley said:

It sounds like you've already started brawling in the Astral plane. In case you wanted to try again, it is possible to fast-talk your way through the entire quest without engaging in any combat. Pretty fun outsmarting a pair of silver dragons! In their mindless devotion to rules, they're like that character in Austin Powers who must answer any question if you ask it three times.

Well, no, actually; no combat yet. The whole concept is that we are on a stealth mission, so I'm keeping a low profile. Well, trying to anyway. That moron Dorn went off, stole a paladin's sword and chopped up a tree? Gah! I parked him and the others back at the entrance, and am scouting the area stealthily alone. No fights, no dragons, no scroll yet.

Wesley

Oops, sorry about spoilers then. I thought I remembered you saying that Dorn was noticed and the cavalry was called.

FrdNwsm

Wesley said:

Oops, sorry about spoilers then. I thought I remembered you saying that Dorn was noticed and the cavalry was called.

Ah. No, that was in reference to the original encounter with the Planetar, who wanted to apprehend Dorn, which led to a bit of a fracas.

FrdNwsm

OK, here's another question. What happens if you ignore the Planetar of Justice entirely? I noticed that Edwin was just about on the verge of level 18, so I ducked back out of Heaven, trained him up, and discovered that he could now cast FOUR 9th level spells. Whew. And he took summon dark planetar as his HLA. Meanwhile, Dorn picked up summon fallen Deva as his ability. When the Planetar of Justice showed up, Edwin countered with a dark planetar, and the two of them immediately began a little dance, which allowed the rest of us to totally trash the crusaders without inyerference.

Justice triumphed in the end and defeated our bad boy, but then MC did his whirlwind thing and Dorn called out his deva; the combination of the two sent Ms. PJ packing. Actually, Edwin had two dark planetar spells memorized, but apparently one can only have one celestial being summoned at a time. Can't have two planetars or one planetar and one deva. Drat.

So, I was wondering what might happen next? Can we simply keep countering the Planetar of Justice with our own parade of Hellspawn, or will they eventually send a whole huge posse of planetars and crusaders after us?

FrdNwsm

Bah; I went back in time and decided to complete the Lunia quest after all. I overwrote that position, so now I can't answer that question. Too bad, I should have saved that place and run it as an "alternate future" time line sort of thing. Oh well, live and learn.

FrdNwsm

Also, Fallen Planetars get pwned by silver dragons. And there seems to be no option to talk them out of fighting you; any conversation option I tried led to a fight.

It IS possible to avoid fighting them, I managed to do so, but not by talking. And if you do fight them, they cheat.

The movement effects of oil of speed stacks with that of items like paws of the cheetah and the grandmaster armor. Everyone in my party had one of these items, and I had each one drink a potion. We left little fiery trails in the Lunia atmosphere as we ran. We still had to listen to the dragons give their boring speech about punishing us, but with our meteoric speed, we were able to blaze right past them to the portal out. Apparently that spot is their duty post, and they can't leave it to chase you.

A bit cheesy, and missing out on a lot of experience and loot, I am sure, but it worked for me.

Wesley

There might be an intelligence requirement to convince them that they are forbidden from meddling in the affairs of gods. That would explain why your character can't come up with the right lines in time to avoid a fight.

Jarrakul

I think it must be Wisdom or Charisma, because my fighter/druid managed to talk them out of fighting, and she was not precisely known for her vast intellect.

FrdNwsm

It's probably not reputation; even for an evil party ours isn't bad. And MC's charisma is decent, otherwise the bad guys would be grumbling more about the rep. I suspect wisdom may be the culprit here.

FrdNwsm

OK, I just checked. Party rep is 13, MC's charisma is 15, but wisdom is only 10. Wisdom seems like a probable suspect.

Jarrakul

Indeed. Although I think by that time my fighter/druid had an 18 Charisma, so it's possible the requirement is Charisma and just very high.

Arunsun

Wisdom seems a lot more logical in that particular situation though

FrdNwsm

Also, I'm a little disgruntled at having to run away. I've run the fight a half-dozen times since, and keep losing. I'm not sure why; I think the Dragons are cheating. We keep removing their protections and can hit them with weapons for a brief while, then they become ineffective again. But it doesn't say they are casting any spells.

And they keep sleeping people; apparently there is no good way to wake someone up once that happens. It's not a spell; is it some sort of breath weapon? I'm reluctant to try dispel magic, since that would leave them awake but de-buffed. Although, I suppose that's better than comatose and helpless.

I really want to whack these guys for being so supercilious ... well, OK, it IS true this group is a bunch of low-life scum, but you don't have to get offensive about it! Any suggestions?

Jarrakul

Hm. I don't remember having all that much trouble with them, to be honest, but I've only fought them the once so I don't have a strong grasp of what might make them easier or harder. Things I probably used on that playthrough include summons, Improved Haste, and the druid bug spells. I also definitely had at least one character with a +6 weapon, and it's conceivable that that could've helped.

Actually, a thought occurs. You turned down a lot of the feedback in Saradush, yes? Is it possible that some of it's still lower, and that's why the game isn't saying they're casting any spells (or using contingencies)?

FrdNwsm

Hmm, have to check that. Not certain.

FrdNwsm

OK, up to 14 defeats in a row now.

Arunsun

I needed about 15 attempts before I was able to deal with them. If you are not against some cheesing, since they are stuck in that circle, you may just use a ranged weapon to kill them from afar 1 by 1

FrdNwsm

Mmm, cheese! Can I have some Tilsiter, or perhaps a bit of gouda?

How does that work? Don't they just keep protecting themselves from magic weapons?

FrdNwsm

Arunsun said:

I needed about 15 attempts before I was able to deal with them. If you are not against some cheesing, since they are stuck in that circle, you may just use a ranged weapon to kill them from afar 1 by 1

Sorry, but this is not possible. Their spells and breath attacks outrange my missile weapons, and missile weapons don't do nearly as much damage as melee weapons. The entire party was dead in 8-9 rounds. Viconia got chunked on round 1; she took 87 damage in one shot.

FrdNwsm

I tried a second time to use missile weapons. What the heck is divine retribution?

Arunsun

The thing about staying far from them is that you can fight them one by one, which means that of you use protection from whatever is their breath weapon element on an a ranged character and keep healing them when they get low, they will deal almost no damage to him, and will run out of protections themselves before you do, and then you can basically go melee and destroy him once he is out of protection from magical weapon

Gallowglass

It does sound as if you've been having inordinate difficulty with the dragon battle in Lumia, @FrdNwsm.

I've done Dorn's ToB quest in three dfferent runs, always in Chapter 8. It can be quite a tough fight, but I've never found it nearly so impossibly-difficult as you describe. I buff up, send my front-liners charging into melee, and chuck a couple of de-buffs to tear down their defences. I don't try to fight on two fronts at the same time - I concentrate on one until dead, and then turn to the other. I've found high-level summonings (devas, etc.) quite useful to absorb some of their attention, but I agree that summoned helpers don't necessarily last very long in this fight.

Are you trying to do this at a relatively low level, perhaps?

FinneousPJ

@FrdNwsm is a new player and probably isn't using high level abilities and spells to their full effect. It also seems he is having trouble with protection spells. Do you have wand of spell striking?

FrdNwsm

Well, of course I'm concentrating on killing one at a time. We did manage to kill one of them twice, but we ended up with one and two guys chunked, so those were losses. I do have wand of spell striking. And Hexxat has the use any item ability so I gave her that; Edwin has a spell trigger set with three pierce magics, and has several pierces and breaches memorized as well. Sarevok is a level 12 mage now and has scrolls of breach and pierce, as well as his own remove magic spell.

The problem is that in order to cast at them, we have to get into range of their breath weapons. They keep putting Edwin to sleep, which takes away our heaviest arcane hitter. We generally have a planetar with remove fear and some skeletal warriors going in to try and distract them, but they aren't too effective. MC has hardiness in effect and uses greater whirlwind, but they keep renewing their protections and his weapon rarely is effective for more than one strike. They have spell triggers and contingencies that go off, so they don't even waste time recasting.

And they have some whacky AOE spell called "divine retribution".

They also seem immune to timestop.

Jarrakul

What physical protections are they using? You might be able to just get around those, either by using +5 weapons or by using non-magical weapons.