Everybody is using +4 weapons except Dorn, who has that +5 "anti-Carsomyr". We do have Ixil's spike which is +6, but no one in this group has any pips in spear use. I could try that combined with critical strike, rather than whirlwind. Let me rephrase that; Viconia has the +5 star mace, but I generally have her stand off to the side with sanctuary up, ready to toss a heal spell if needed. Maybe I should have her cast DUHM and take part in the melee? She really doesnt have a lot of HP as far as being able to take damage. On the other hand, sanctuary doesn't stop her from getting caught in an AOE attack, like dragon breath.
As I mentioned, we evaded them entirely by running like blazes, but I do want to take them down, so I'll probably be returning to this scenario later on.
Currently I am trying to get the good guys to the same point in time as the bad; we are starting Neera's quest. A dozen Red Wizards and their thugs? Piece of cake. A whole arena full of Yuan-ti and their wizard pals? ::Yawn:: Wake me when there is something challenging.
Although I suspect the final installment will be a bit more difficult. This was just the overture; the fat lady is still waiting in the wings.
"It ain't over until the fat lady sings". Var: "The opera isn't over until the fat lady sings".
A quote variously attributed to Yogi Berra, Dan Cook and Ralph Carpenter, which may or may not refer to Brunnhilde's 20 minute aria in the final act of Wagner's "Die Gotterdammerung".
Every now and then, some lunatic decides to stage the entire Ring cycle in a marathon 4 day performance schedule. Since the entire Ring cycle takes upwards of 15 hours to perform, many an audience has probably greeted her appearance with sighs of relief.
My girlfriend has a dvd of the whole thing. Admittedly because I gave it to her, but she was the one who asked for it. Suffice to say I haven't seen it yet.
Regarding the fight, can you tell precisely what protections they're using? If you're getting Weapon Ineffective, it should be either Mantle, Improved Mantle, Absolutely Immunity, or Protection from Magic Weapons. Probably not Mantle, or your +4 weapons would hit through it.
I am not sure exactly what they are casting; the whole fight is at pretty high speed, and even if I pause it every few seconds I am not entirely certain.
Is there any way to auto-log the combat as it occurs, for later review?
If you're getting Weapon Ineffective, it should be either Mantle, Improved Mantle, Absolutely Immunity, or Protection from Magic Weapons. Probably not Mantle, or your +4 weapons would hit through it.
+4 weapons would hit through Improved Mantle too. Mantle blocks +2 or less, Improved Mantle blocks +3 or less, Absolute Immunity blocks +5 or less.
Regarding the battle ... I've just now re-loaded a save from immediately before this battle in my last run, and re-fought it, watching carefully to remind myself what protections Ixthezzys and Dolrassa put up.
As it turns out, it seems to be very little - they put up various spell protections (Spell Turning, Protection from the Elements, and Spell Immunity: Abjuration), but no physical protection except Spirit Armor! It was, frankly, a very easy fight ... even though I cast no buffs (and no HLAs) after loading, just relying on a few things which were still active from the preceeding fight, the dragons lasted one round each and did not a single point of damage to any of my party. Most of the damage was being done by Korgan (level 31), dual-wielding Stonefire +3 (main-hand with 5*) and Crom Faeyr +5 (off-hand with 2*) at 8 APR (because Improved Haste was still active from the previous fight) with -17 THAC0 in both hands and AC -13, and my protagonist (a level 36 Assassin) also scored some ranged hits (and poisoned both dragons with his Poison Weapon ability) using the Crimson Dart +3 at 3 APR with -4 THAC0. I also had a Fallen Deva with me (left over from the preceeding fight), but she didn't contribute much, Dorn (merely level 16, recruited in the pocket plane just to do his quest) and Viconia (level 33) who each helped slightly with a couple of hits (including a useful Dispel-on-hit by Dorn using Ir'revrykal +5), Edwin (level 24) who merely attacked with his sling (no spells) and contributed no damage, and Haer'Dalis (level 35) who simply sang his Enhanced Bard Song (still active from the previous fight). Neither dragon got off a breath attack, because both were dead before they got around to it.
As with several other fights, I reckon that the key is to strike fast and hard, so that the enemy doesn't have time to do much.
As it went this time, Ixthezzys was almost dead before the dragons even got around to turning hostile, and I'm pretty convinced that Korgan didn't actually need help - he could probably have taken them both down solo, simply by charging in and hacking away.
With Spell Immunity: Abjuration, the dragons would be protected from Breach, Dispel Magic, Remove Magic, Pierce Magic, Pierce Shield, Khelben's Warding Whip, Spell Thrust, Spell Strike, and Secret Word.
That's a good lot of spells that I would ordinarily launch early in a big fight, so @FrdNwsm 's magical onslaught may be ineffective for that reason. And Spell Turning would potentially turn your attacks back at you.
"...this time, Ixthezzys was almost dead before the dragons even got around to turning hostile, and I'm pretty convinced that Korgan didn't actually need help - he could probably have taken them both down solo, simply by charging in and hacking away. "
OK, clearly we are fighting two different battles. Is it possible that their AI programming has been improved recently? I clearly saw spell triggers and contingencies going off, with immunity to magical weapons and other protections firing. I'll try doing it again after I finish the Neera quest line with my good-aligned group.
With Spell Immunity: Abjuration, the dragons would be protected from Breach, Dispel Magic, Remove Magic, Pierce Magic, Pierce Shield, Khelben's Warding Whip, Spell Thrust, Spell Strike, and Secret Word.
Isn't that only true in SCS? I thought it didn't work in the unmodded game.
Is it possible that their AI programming has been improved recently?
Only if there's been a new patch which I've not noticed. I'd have thought that I'd have noticed some mention of any update on this site, but I'll go check.
I clearly saw spell triggers and contingencies going off, with immunity to magical weapons and other protections firing. I'll try doing it again after I finish the Neera quest line with my good-aligned group.
Well, indeed the various spell protections which I reported were being fired by sequencers, etc. ... but when I tested it earlier today, it didn't include Protection From Magical Weapons (or Mantles, etc.), just the spells I mentioned.
Perhaps there is some randomness in what spells the dragons have prepared in their sequencers? In which case, perhaps my test was simply lucky.
Or perhaps the dragons have a later batch of sequenced spells which includes more physical protections? In which case, I had already killed them before they had time to fire those.
that was the first round of battle; I am still doing damage to one of the dragons. Next round: sequencers go off, my weapon (+4 Wave halberd) is now ineffective. Stoneskin?
After that things got a bit hazy and frenetic. Edwin tried casting Withering, being desperate ... and trying to at least get that crusader out of the fight. MC when he awoke was almost dead and had to stop attacking and drink a healing potion. When he was done with that, he tried attacking again ... weapon ineffective. No idea why, things were moving too fast for the screen to catch everything. Dorn's +5 weapon did work but with dinky damage; due to his poisoning it, maybe? Weapon damage ignored but the poison was still effective? In desperation MC grabbed Ixil's spike and used critical strike. Next round he was dead.
That was attempt #15. Pretty typical; initial damage to one dragon, then their sequencers and contingencies go off and nothing works. And yes, the one dragon did cast spell immunity:Abjuration as part of its sequencer. Before that, Edwin did toss off his spell trigger, and removed the one dragon's protections (I didn't manage to capture that part), but apparently it put them right back in place again.
I had a fallen planetar, an efreet and 2 skeletal warriors in action as well, to try and distract their attention; it didn't work particularly well. They seemed to know what the main threats were.
Does everybody talking about this fight have their difficulty sliders in the same place? The difficulty slider has some effect on Throne of Bhaal battles over and above the usual - for example, Melissan in the final fight will summon much stronger monsters to help her with each difficulty slider increase (such as elder orbs on Core Rules as opposed to minor demons on Easy).
It's possible that Beamdog programmed the dragons' spell protections and battle scripts to be stronger at higher difficulty settings.
@FrdNwsm have you tried changing your difficulty slider to Easy? If you can beat it there, you can always turn it back up to Core Rules and try again at the harder setting. At least it would test whether the difficulty slider is making the difference.
I'm on hard (the level just before insane); I've managed to get this far at that setting, so I'd rather keep it consistent. Yeah, I'm sure setting it to Novice would certainly make it easier, but I'd rather defeat them at the same level I fought everything else.
One the other hand, now you have me curious about how the setting level might vary things. I might check it out for the sake of the research. Also, this group doesn't have the gear my good party does, since they were created in the pocket plane rather than going through all of SoA. It's all prettty standard stuff except for Dorn's sword and Viconia's star mace.
Is it possible that their AI programming has been improved recently?
xWell, indeed the various spell protections which I reported were being fired by sequencers, etc. ... but when I tested it earlier today, it didn't include Protection From Magical Weapons (or Mantles, etc.), just the spells I mentioned.
Please note the part where one dragon put up stoneskin, which is definitely a physical protection. With the speed that the text was going by, I could easily have missed a protection from magical weapons being cast. Something is making my weapon ineffective, and also limiting Dorn's damage to just his poison effect.
I don't see any actual Weapon Ineffective text, and as FinneousPJ points out, Dorn's dealing minimal damage is consistent with a poisoned weapon hitting through Stoneskin. My guess is that's all they're using against physical attacks, in which case you should be able to overwhelm it with GWW or Breach spells (other buff removers won't work, so make sure you're using specifically Breach or the appropriate use of the Wands of Spell Striking).
I clearly remember them casting PfMW and SI: Abjuration when I fought them. That's what made the fight insane: they use the very tactics that we use to get invincible as a mage.
@FrdNwsm - one difference is that I'm playing Core Rules, whereas you're using Hard. However, although settings easier-than-Core seem to nerf the enemy spells and summonses, I think Core-and-higher settings all use the same AI and differ only in damage-per-hit ... but perhaps I'm wrong on that.
Your first screenshot shows exactly the protections I reported from my test a few hours ago - no physical protection. It's only later, when your second screenshot shows another round of sequenced protections firing (as I previously speculated might occur), that the dragons are casting Stoneskin. For sure it's that Stoneskin which is blocking your weapons (except Dorn's poison, which is the damage shown in appropriately-sickly green). The difference in my test is that I was killing the dragons before that second round of protections fired!
If the Stoneskin fires before you can stop them, then (as @Jarrakul has said) Breach is the spell you need ... but it'll be blocked at first because of the spell protections previously cast. You can precede Breach with de-buffs to strip the spell protections, but it may well be quickest just hammering at the dragon until you break through - Stoneskin maxes out at 10 skins, so the 11th hit will get through (which might take only a couple of seconds, if everyone is Hasted and attacking physically).
Speed is your friend here. Since YourChar is two-handing, Greater Whirlwind is the HLA you need here (or even ordinary Whirlwind, if your THAC0 is good enough). For Dorn too, if he's got HLAs yet. Ideally, of course, if you're hitting hard enough as well as fast, then you get what I found in my test - the dragon is dead before it can trigger its Stoneskin.
Weapon choice can be useful too. In my test, Dorn was wielding Ir'revrykal +5, which can Dispel-on-hit against the dragons ... that's handy for de-buffing them.
I don't see any actual Weapon Ineffective text, and as FinneousPJ points out, Dorn's dealing minimal damage is consistent with a poisoned weapon hitting through Stoneskin. My guess is that's all they're using against physical attacks, in which case you should be able to overwhelm it with GWW or Breach spells (other buff removers won't work, so make sure you're using specifically Breach or the appropriate use of the Wands of Spell Striking).
Second screen capture shows Hippolyta: Weapon ineffective
Ah, I didn't see that Weapon Ineffective. And with a +4 weapon, too. I don't see what spell's causing it, but I'm gonna go ahead and assume it's Protection from Magic Weapons. Do you have any non-magical weapons lying around? You might have some luck with those. Alternatively, Breach is gonna be the way to go. My testing indicates that SI: Abjuration shouldn't block it.
Honestly, though, it's possible the main problem is just surviving attacks by Improved Hasted dragons. Does Edwin know a lot of defensive spells? If so, you might have some luck letting him take point, although that's a tad risky due to their non-physical damage options.
Hmmm ... I'm running out of ideas to explain why you're having so much trouble, @FrdNwsm. I think I'll go away and try another test or two.
Let's see ... they have sequencers and spell triggers that buff them up within seconds, casting spell turning, SI abjuration and stoneskin, contingency spells that rebuff them, may or may not have PfMW, can cast IH on themselves, and have wing buffets that knock you unconscious and breath attacks that put you to sleep.
Okay, I've tested a little more, both on Core and on Hard.
I was luckier than average on my earlier test, the dragons don't usually die that fast and they can sometimes hurt me before I kill them. Re-buffing certainly helps, and Protection From Cold (Mage, Level 3) or Resist Fire and Cold (Priest, Level 2) are useful against the dragons' breath attack. Dorn at level 16 is rather too weak for this fight - the dragons might kill him if they target him, especially if I don't bother to re-buff. On the other hand, even without re-buffing, I still found that I could kill both dragons without taking any damage, on Hard as well as on Core, if I had a little luck. The dragons seem quite susceptible to poison, definitely worth using if you have characters who can.
I tried it five times. All five times I killed both dragons, but twice I had someone dead to raise at the end, and once I had Dorn perma-dead.
Key factor - approach from due east (i.e. due right-wards) of the dragons. Then after the cut-scene where Dolrassa directs Baldwin to seal the portals, you can walk up to Ixthezzys and force-attack him before he goes hostile, and (because the dragons are so large!) you're not yet even in visual range of Dolrassa at the start of the attack. (This wouldn't be true if you approached from some other direction.) This way, you can get Ixthezzys down to Near Death before either of them does anything.
When Ixthezzys fires his first round of sequenced protections (i.e. without the physical protections), ignore it and keep on hacking at him, in the hope of killing him before he can fire the second sequencer (and with some luck he'll go down and you'll still have time to start hurting Dolrassa before she gets her own Stoneskin up - she reacts more slowly and wants to talk to you before fighting). If Ixthezzys gets off the second sequencer, hit him with Spell Thrust (Mage, Level 3) which takes down Spell Immunity: Abjuration (even though it's an Abjuration spell) because it promises to dispel all protections up to level 5 (which therefore includes Spell Immunity) ... the spell descriptions of Spell Immunity and Spell Thrust contradict one another, but it appears in practice that Spell Thrust wins. Then you can de-buff his other spell protections and Breach his Stoneskin ... while you're casting, of course, you can use that time to start attacking Dolrassa.
Dolrassa often will get both rounds of sequencers off, but the same de-buffing procedure seems to work fine against her. The dragons are not immune to Time Stop, so you can de-buff them (and lower their resistance, and even stand a fair chance of killing them) from safety inside your Time Stop.
If you get hurt, use the fact that the dragons are too big to leave the henge. A warrior can run out of range, heal up in peace, and run back into combat.
Well Dayy-um! I thought I recalled reading somewhere that dragons in general were one of the critters that ignored time stop. I haven't been using it for that reason. OK, if Edwin can in fact use this spell effectively, that rather changes things around. He can pack three of them, with his fourth level 9 spell being Planetar. Let me give it a shot later on and see what happens.
Comments
As I mentioned, we evaded them entirely by running like blazes, but I do want to take them down, so I'll probably be returning to this scenario later on.
Currently I am trying to get the good guys to the same point in time as the bad; we are starting Neera's quest. A dozen Red Wizards and their thugs? Piece of cake. A whole arena full of Yuan-ti and their wizard pals? ::Yawn:: Wake me when there is something challenging.
Although I suspect the final installment will be a bit more difficult. This was just the overture; the fat lady is still waiting in the wings.
Var: "The opera isn't over until the fat lady sings".
A quote variously attributed to Yogi Berra, Dan Cook and Ralph Carpenter, which may or may not refer to Brunnhilde's 20 minute aria in the final act of Wagner's "Die Gotterdammerung".
Every now and then, some lunatic decides to stage the entire Ring cycle in a marathon 4 day performance schedule. Since the entire Ring cycle takes upwards of 15 hours to perform, many an audience has probably greeted her appearance with sighs of relief.
Regarding the fight, can you tell precisely what protections they're using? If you're getting Weapon Ineffective, it should be either Mantle, Improved Mantle, Absolutely Immunity, or Protection from Magic Weapons. Probably not Mantle, or your +4 weapons would hit through it.
Is there any way to auto-log the combat as it occurs, for later review?
Regarding the battle ... I've just now re-loaded a save from immediately before this battle in my last run, and re-fought it, watching carefully to remind myself what protections Ixthezzys and Dolrassa put up.
As it turns out, it seems to be very little - they put up various spell protections (Spell Turning, Protection from the Elements, and Spell Immunity: Abjuration), but no physical protection except Spirit Armor! It was, frankly, a very easy fight ... even though I cast no buffs (and no HLAs) after loading, just relying on a few things which were still active from the preceeding fight, the dragons lasted one round each and did not a single point of damage to any of my party. Most of the damage was being done by Korgan (level 31), dual-wielding Stonefire +3 (main-hand with 5*) and Crom Faeyr +5 (off-hand with 2*) at 8 APR (because Improved Haste was still active from the previous fight) with -17 THAC0 in both hands and AC -13, and my protagonist (a level 36 Assassin) also scored some ranged hits (and poisoned both dragons with his Poison Weapon ability) using the Crimson Dart +3 at 3 APR with -4 THAC0. I also had a Fallen Deva with me (left over from the preceeding fight), but she didn't contribute much, Dorn (merely level 16, recruited in the pocket plane just to do his quest) and Viconia (level 33) who each helped slightly with a couple of hits (including a useful Dispel-on-hit by Dorn using Ir'revrykal +5), Edwin (level 24) who merely attacked with his sling (no spells) and contributed no damage, and Haer'Dalis (level 35) who simply sang his Enhanced Bard Song (still active from the previous fight). Neither dragon got off a breath attack, because both were dead before they got around to it.
As with several other fights, I reckon that the key is to strike fast and hard, so that the enemy doesn't have time to do much.
As it went this time, Ixthezzys was almost dead before the dragons even got around to turning hostile, and I'm pretty convinced that Korgan didn't actually need help - he could probably have taken them both down solo, simply by charging in and hacking away.
That's a good lot of spells that I would ordinarily launch early in a big fight, so @FrdNwsm 's magical onslaught may be ineffective for that reason. And Spell Turning would potentially turn your attacks back at you.
Ruby Ray of Reversal would work, though...
OK, clearly we are fighting two different battles. Is it possible that their AI programming has been improved recently? I clearly saw spell triggers and contingencies going off, with immunity to magical weapons and other protections firing. I'll try doing it again after I finish the Neera quest line with my good-aligned group.
Perhaps there is some randomness in what spells the dragons have prepared in their sequencers? In which case, perhaps my test was simply lucky.
Or perhaps the dragons have a later batch of sequenced spells which includes more physical protections? In which case, I had already killed them before they had time to fire those.
I had a fallen planetar, an efreet and 2 skeletal warriors in action as well, to try and distract their attention; it didn't work particularly well. They seemed to know what the main threats were.
It's possible that Beamdog programmed the dragons' spell protections and battle scripts to be stronger at higher difficulty settings.
@FrdNwsm have you tried changing your difficulty slider to Easy? If you can beat it there, you can always turn it back up to Core Rules and try again at the harder setting. At least it would test whether the difficulty slider is making the difference.
Please note the part where one dragon put up stoneskin, which is definitely a physical protection. With the speed that the text was going by, I could easily have missed a protection from magical weapons being cast. Something is making my weapon ineffective, and also limiting Dorn's damage to just his poison effect.
Your first screenshot shows exactly the protections I reported from my test a few hours ago - no physical protection. It's only later, when your second screenshot shows another round of sequenced protections firing (as I previously speculated might occur), that the dragons are casting Stoneskin. For sure it's that Stoneskin which is blocking your weapons (except Dorn's poison, which is the damage shown in appropriately-sickly green). The difference in my test is that I was killing the dragons before that second round of protections fired!
If the Stoneskin fires before you can stop them, then (as @Jarrakul has said) Breach is the spell you need ... but it'll be blocked at first because of the spell protections previously cast. You can precede Breach with de-buffs to strip the spell protections, but it may well be quickest just hammering at the dragon until you break through - Stoneskin maxes out at 10 skins, so the 11th hit will get through (which might take only a couple of seconds, if everyone is Hasted and attacking physically).
Speed is your friend here. Since YourChar is two-handing, Greater Whirlwind is the HLA you need here (or even ordinary Whirlwind, if your THAC0 is good enough). For Dorn too, if he's got HLAs yet. Ideally, of course, if you're hitting hard enough as well as fast, then you get what I found in my test - the dragon is dead before it can trigger its Stoneskin.
Weapon choice can be useful too. In my test, Dorn was wielding Ir'revrykal +5, which can Dispel-on-hit against the dragons ... that's handy for de-buffing them.
That's what he is using with me also. He doesn't have whirlwind so we gave him IH. Didn't help.
Honestly, though, it's possible the main problem is just surviving attacks by Improved Hasted dragons. Does Edwin know a lot of defensive spells? If so, you might have some luck letting him take point, although that's a tad risky due to their non-physical damage options.
Let's see ... they have sequencers and spell triggers that buff them up within seconds, casting spell turning, SI abjuration and stoneskin, contingency spells that rebuff them, may or may not have PfMW, can cast IH on themselves, and have wing buffets that knock you unconscious and breath attacks that put you to sleep.
Sounds like a reason for them to give me trouble.
I was luckier than average on my earlier test, the dragons don't usually die that fast and they can sometimes hurt me before I kill them. Re-buffing certainly helps, and Protection From Cold (Mage, Level 3) or Resist Fire and Cold (Priest, Level 2) are useful against the dragons' breath attack. Dorn at level 16 is rather too weak for this fight - the dragons might kill him if they target him, especially if I don't bother to re-buff. On the other hand, even without re-buffing, I still found that I could kill both dragons without taking any damage, on Hard as well as on Core, if I had a little luck. The dragons seem quite susceptible to poison, definitely worth using if you have characters who can.
I tried it five times. All five times I killed both dragons, but twice I had someone dead to raise at the end, and once I had Dorn perma-dead.
Key factor - approach from due east (i.e. due right-wards) of the dragons. Then after the cut-scene where Dolrassa directs Baldwin to seal the portals, you can walk up to Ixthezzys and force-attack him before he goes hostile, and (because the dragons are so large!) you're not yet even in visual range of Dolrassa at the start of the attack. (This wouldn't be true if you approached from some other direction.) This way, you can get Ixthezzys down to Near Death before either of them does anything.
When Ixthezzys fires his first round of sequenced protections (i.e. without the physical protections), ignore it and keep on hacking at him, in the hope of killing him before he can fire the second sequencer (and with some luck he'll go down and you'll still have time to start hurting Dolrassa before she gets her own Stoneskin up - she reacts more slowly and wants to talk to you before fighting). If Ixthezzys gets off the second sequencer, hit him with Spell Thrust (Mage, Level 3) which takes down Spell Immunity: Abjuration (even though it's an Abjuration spell) because it promises to dispel all protections up to level 5 (which therefore includes Spell Immunity) ... the spell descriptions of Spell Immunity and Spell Thrust contradict one another, but it appears in practice that Spell Thrust wins. Then you can de-buff his other spell protections and Breach his Stoneskin ... while you're casting, of course, you can use that time to start attacking Dolrassa.
Dolrassa often will get both rounds of sequencers off, but the same de-buffing procedure seems to work fine against her. The dragons are not immune to Time Stop, so you can de-buff them (and lower their resistance, and even stand a fair chance of killing them) from safety inside your Time Stop.
If you get hurt, use the fact that the dragons are too big to leave the henge. A warrior can run out of range, heal up in peace, and run back into combat.