Request- BG1 NPCs join at static level; have XP to let us level them ourselves

sandmanCCL

If I recall this is how it works in BG2. I'd really appreciate it for BG1, as well. It's kind of frustrating NPCs mirror your level when you first recruit them so they have automatically allocated proficiency points and in the case of thieves, thieving skills.

It would go a long way toward making Skie and Alora specifically more viable NPCs, and helps us skill up pretty much anyone else in weapons we actually want to use instead of like axes or spears or something.

MilesBeyond

Yes. Yes 100 times yes. This is what makes later thieves so unpopular. Skie and Alora, you mentioned, I would lump Coran into this as well. And really, possibly even Safana, unless you beeline right to her.

Corvino

I agree completely. It's a frustrating mechanic that doesn't really add anything to the game. It does stop you outlevelling NPCs later in the game, but the game choices are usually so poor it renders them useless.

I suppose an option could be having them gain XP to keep up with the PC but not actually press the "level up" button. This way you could level them up yourself on first adding them and not have them left behind in XP.

theJoshFrost

I dunno, I like when they mirror your level. It makes it easier when you want to drop a party member for another person. If I want to drop someone who's level 6, and go back to get someone who I want in my party, but they're level 3... why would I do that? The level 3 is just going to be taking up space and suckling the XP from my party while not contributing much to the higher level encounters.

sandmanCCL

You misunderstand, Josh. The NPCs will still have the XP to instantly raise to your level when you pick them up. They would just join as level 1. That way, you'd be in control of all of their level-ups.

Does that make sense?

bigdogchris

One of the features I most liked in BG was the fact that NPC's did not mirror your level. I was really disppointed in Dragon Age when I found out that the game used this 'modern' feature.

I like the idea of NPC's being their own character of their own level when they join your party. Mirroring makes the game feel fake, just like golden paths. Plus, to me it's no fun when everyone in your party levels up within a kill or two of eachother. When they all start at their own level the level up process is spread out across characters to happens at different times.

recklessheart

I agree entirely with @bigdogchris. I like that the NPCs roughly mirror your character's level of experience without being identical right down to the last point of XP. I always found that to be a little absurd when it later cropped up in DA, and such.
Maybe it makes some NPCs less commercial, but if people are eager enough to explore those characters and include them in their party, I doubt it should matter how their stats are assigned.

sandmanCCL

The reason level mirroring was introduced in "modern" CRPGs is because there are a vast amount of people who want to enjoy the "RP content" of a game without it also hindering our ability to be effective in combat.

I have yet to utilize Alora despite playing through Baldur's Gate: Tales of the Sword Coast a million times because she has very little wiggle room to be useful in the most important thieving trait, which is to say she comes with a super low find traps value that can't disarm much beyond when she joins.

Kholdstare

I'm a pretty big fan of this feature. I'd welcome it if only for the chance to make characters a little more capable.

agris

@sandmanCCL and @bigdogchris

I think there should be two options, set via bgconfig or whatever will be used, for NPCs to join at a predetermined level (@bigdogchris's style, and lots of others) or at level 1 with a level of XP approximately equal to that of the player (idea proposed in OP). Thus, your new NPCs aren't weakened AND you get to dictate the course of their skill development. Everyone wins!

The game should probably default to the original behavior, since this is how the game shipped and will be easy for those of us who want it to switch it.

Son_of_Imoen

Of course the option can always be modded. Sometimes I use the TOB-style level up (something is already filled in, some you can allot when joining) tweak from BG2 Tweaks, sometimes the 'Pick NPC proficencies and skills' (start the levelling from level 0) from SCS. I like the middle road of the first tweak the most: NPC's have some character (choice of weapons) of their own, but you can tweak a bit.

But the nice thing about BGEE will be not to have to spend hours tweaking with mods, so yeah, for one (or both) of the options to be included would be nice.

Rexfaroensis

Pretty much disagree wholeheartedly with OP, but I think this is an excellent topic/thread though

Edvin

Easy and smart idea to improve game.

MatteoTurini

That would be nice. I remember the first times I played the game, I was super-excited to find new joinable npcs, but then bummed down when I found out they were extremely underpowered in respect of the npcs already in my party.

I wouldn't care so much for high stats - an pncs with low stats, but that I liked, would be in my party anyway - but pncs with all the skill points allocated wrongly or with half their max hp are really a bummer...

The idea of having a default behaviour and then being able to switch to the other one with option selection is great.

kilroy_was_here

While I agree that this is something that would make the game more flexible for the player (esp veterans like most of us) it is unlikely that such a change is in the cards. Instead, I would suggest firing up shadowkeeper and fiddling with the numbers until they are where you want them to be. As long as the totals are the same, it's not cheating, right?

And for those who would insist that it IS cheating well... that's the reason I never roll a LN char.

sandmanCCL

@kilroy_was_here: I end up doing that any game I feel like using Tiax for that very reason. Still, it's annoying to have to look up what the minimum values for any given race (people forget all demi-humans get bonuses to some random thief skills) and then factor in what the minimums for their dexterity is.

It'd be so much nicer if all this stuff was taken care of in-game. Mods/editors are great and all, but at the end of the day isn't half the reason BG:EE is worth the cash is so we don't have to worry about utilizing external content?

mlnevese

That's basically what the lvl 1 NPC mod does. I'd like it to have an option that wouldn't give enough XP to the NPC to be close to your own. I actually liked the diversity of levels in the party

Ulfgar_Torunn

In vanilla BG the computer was notorious for choosing some of the worst proficiencies and thieving skills, often resulting in NPCs which offered little to a fully customized party. Allowing the player to allocate these points manually would significantly improve the usefulness of many late-game characters.

On the other hand, each character has a certain flavor which is conveyed partially by their preset skills/abilities. Their idiosyncrasies are part of what makes them unique.

Personally, I would like the skills/proficiencies to remain preset, but to be chosen more intelligently. After all, the problem is that the present allocations are poorly done, and not that the player lacks complete control.

kilroy_was_here

In BG2 doesn't Jaheira have proficiency points in clubs? How many magic clubs are there, around 2?

sandmanCCL

Erm, clubs are actually pretty awesome. The Gnasher is easily obtained and is a seriously good weapon. The Blackblood is +3 and deals extra acid damage on hit so it actually packs a punch and has the added benefit of helping against trolls.

Then you get the Club of Detonation in Throne of Bhaal and giggle as things mercilessly explode. Just make sure you equip enough fire resist on the rest of your guys.

Corvino

@sandmanCCL true, however in BG1 there are zero (0) enchanted clubs implemented ingame. Not even a generic +1 one.

sandmanCCL

Yeah. Kilroy was talking BG2 though.

I believe they mentioned in the AMA clubs were being added. I recall something about Quayle's mace proficiency being morphed into a club one and having items correspond.

Doubt we get +3 versions of all weapons but we should at least have a +2 for everything. Hopefully.

Brude

There's a mod out there (BG Tweaks?) that moved certain NPCs to better locations. So, for example, you could pick up Eldoth outside the Friendly Arm Inn and Tiax in Beregost.

I prefer this solution because it retains the flavor of the original game without forcing players to micromanage or min/max NPCs every time.

Short of that, I'd love the options to revert weapon profiencies to their original form. BG2 introduced close to a dozen new skills that were over complicated and redundant, and eventually caused players to focus on pips and specific weapon based builds rather that core gameplay.

moody_mage

Totally agree with the OP. The problem with even more intelligently chosen proficiencies and skill point allocation is that every game is different and whilst Player A might want NPC A to specialise in traps and locks Player B may have that base covered and would want NPC A to be a stealth specialist.

I see no harm in allowing the player to determine an NPCs growth from level 1, after all the player determines the growth from the point of when they recruit them onwards. There can always be a 'choose for me' button to automatically level up an NPC if required.

Mortianna

Corvino said:

@sandmanCCL true, however in BG1 there are zero (0) enchanted clubs implemented ingame. Not even a generic +1 one.

I remember "The Root of the Problem" Club +1/+3 vs. unnatural creatures that somehow failed to actually make it into the vanilla game. I wonder if they're going to include it this time.

Corvino

@Mortianna that's the unimplemented one I was thinking of.