Having Kivan in my party had me almost uninstalling BG1NPC. The writer obviously took Carth Onasi's character as a basis and decided he was not whiny enough. So despite the 'original' Kivan was a rather harsh character (just listen to his soundfiles), with BG1NPC, he is now an ever-lamenting, whimpering cissy.
agreed. Add overpowered weapon given to him for free by Thalantyr (seriously, who thought it was a good idea) and you end up with the worst NPC in whole BG1 NPC Project. I found it amusing that even after telling him to shut up and stop whining about his lost girlfriend he still does it all the time. Fortunately he attacked my party when I agreed to some "evilish" (not really) quest, and end up being slaughtered by the rest of my party. No regrets. Quite a relief to be honest
Anyway, what I am getting to (sorry, I'm a little drunk) is that one person's Kivan might be whiny, while another's is endearingly sentimental and/or romantic.
I Just wanted to stand up and defend each person's contribution to the BG1NPC Project mod. It was a monumental amount of work for everyone involved.
Sure, but even if vanilla BG1 didn't have banters to flesh out characters, as was mentioned in this topic, NPCs had personalities presented via voice clips and few dialogues. We could also judge the personality from the lines they randomly say to each other (interact.2da, death.2da). I think complaints about Kivan are not because he is whinny. It's because his whining seems to not fit how majority of players perceived this character in vanilla game. While I think NPC Project did awesome job on expanding NPCs and at the same time staying true to vanilla game (I think that was the goal?), what it does to Kivan is unacceptable.
edit2: on the other hand "My soul aches for my lost Deheriana." line may indeed allow for this interpretation of character. Still I think he deserves better than how he is portrayed in BG1 NPC Project.
I think that Kivan’s base game line of “My soul aches for my lost Deheriana” is a perfect example of how the original writers must have seen him. That is a very strong line that tells you a lot about this character. This says to me that Domi did an excellent job of expanding that NPC for the NPC project. Very much in keeping with his original concept.
(chuckles) Ok, let’s add a bit more food for thought. He is also shown to be obsessed with wanting revenge for his wife’s death. The man is clearly in a great deal of pain over his loss. Is it really so hard to believe that he would talk about her often?
Lets take a look at his in game biography:
Kivan reveals that he hails from the forest of Shilmista, though he has not visited his homeland for quite some time. He has instead been traveling the world driven by the darkest of obsessions: revenge. Kivan and his mate Deheriana were apparently on a romantic sojourn years ago when they were waylaid by a group of Brigands. They were captured and tortured for the amusement of Tazok, the half-ogre that led the attack. Kivan eventually escaped, but Deheriana did not survive the encounter. Kivan is a man of few words, and obviously does not make friends easily. Likely, he will not take much pleasure from life until he has revenged the death of his love
The words romance and love are even used in his biography. In my opinion, Domi got it right.
Of course, everyone gets different impressions of the NPCs. That’s perfectly understandable, and in my opinion, a good thing. It allows a wide variety of players to find something to like about the different NPCs, adding enjoyment to their own game. Our own likes and dislikes, not to mention our different life experiences, are bound to color our perceptions of the different characters.
I only object to the notion that one players interpretation of an NPC is the only way they should be interpreted. That, and when it comes to a modded NPC, the notion that just because the mods author didn’t perceive the NPC in the same way that some other players did, they must have done it “wrong” or “badly”.
When I set up the framework of collaboration in the BG1NPC Project, I picked out (IMO) the best (at the the time) people to be the "character czar/ina" for each NPC. (The original plan was a solo endeavor, but the amount of work soon became too daunting.) The person might not have been the best strictly speaking from a creative writing standpoint, but they were the most passionate about their (respective) character(s). And I had approached each each after a great deal of consideration and observation of their posts on Usenet and various other web forums.
In addition to all the technical responsibilities, I chose Imoen (and did a large part of her dialogue). I had plans to make her the most chatty of all the NPCs combined. Unfortunately, my mother was dying of cancer at the time and I had to orphan the mod. FORTUNATELY wonderfully talented people like Domi, Andyr, etc. stepped up and took over and saw the mod to completion. For which I am incredibly grateful and humbly appreciative.
Anyway, what I am getting to (sorry, I'm a little drunk) is that one person's Kivan might be whiny, while another's is endearingly sentimental and/or romantic.
I Just wanted to stand up and defend each person's contribution to the BG1NPC Project mod. It was a monumental amount of work for everyone involved.
EDIT: This is a drunken, semi-coherent mess, but I'll leave it as a warning to others not to drink and post...
BG1NPC is an amazing mod. My hat is off to everyone who poured their blood, sweat, and tears into making it.
I only object to the notion that one players interpretation of an NPC is the only way they should be interpreted. That, and when it comes to a modded NPC, the notion that just because the mods author didn’t perceive the NPC in the same way that some other players did, they must have done it “wrong” or “badly”.
I just conferred with Tiax about this notion, and you're obviously wrong. In fact, Tiax' interpretation of anything actually IS the only way it should be interpreted...
But honestly, that's why I added "in my humble opinion", "for me", etc. to my posts. Of course, just because I didn't like it doesn't mean that nobody may like it. But as the OP asked for recommendations, I gave him my recommendation - and my reasons why I recommended not to add Kivan to his party. That is of course just my opinion and not the clear-cut, from all to be adhered to truth.
If you allow me a question: Do you really think that Kivan's BG1NPC author actually portrayed Kivan in the way the original game developers from BioWare intended him to be? Or did you just state that to prove your point that things can be interpreted differently?
I mean, sure, the words romance and love are used in Kivan's in-game biography, but only to illuminate why he is on a vendetta for several years now. The emphasis - and I honestly don't think this could possibly interpreted differently - is on Kivan being "driven by the darkest of obsessions: revenge", and that he has been hunting Tazok for years now to take his revenge.
As I see it, Kivan was not intended to be an introspective, whiny/sentimental elf pondering the greatness of his loss, sharing his cruel fate with his travelling acquaintances in all verboseness, but rather that Kivan is a "man of few words", driven by his anger to retaliate upon Tazok for torturing Deheriana to death.
@Erstarrung said: If you allow me a question: Do you really think that Kivan's BG1NPC author actually portrayed Kivan in the way the original game developers from BioWare intended him to be? Or did you just state that to prove your point that things can be interpreted differently?
Yes, I honestly believe that the general way that Domi portrayed him was very close to the vision of the original writer. Of course, I can’t possibly know that for sure as I can’t ask them. But my perception of him, given the clues the game gives me, fits closely with how Domi seemed to see him for the NPC project. I haven’t played the content she made for BGII, so I can’t yet speak to that.
Of course, it doesn’t matter in the least how I see him when it comes to you and your game enjoyment. If I personally felt that the writing for any of the NPCs really didn’t fit with my own cannon view of them, I would skip using that NPC in favor of one who hit all the right notes for me personally.
Believe me, I have found myself feeling that a mod authors interpretation of an NPC differed greatly from my own on more than one occasion. It doesn’t matter. They are not obligated to make their vision match my own. I’m just grateful that they kindly gave me the opportunity to benefit from all of their hard work. If it’s not to my liking, I will move on to content that better suits me personally. Letting others who find that content appealing and fun enjoy it.
@AstroBryGuy used the terms blood, sweat and tears. He’s not exaggerating. It’s a lot of work, folks.
Sorry to butt in and take the thread a bit off topic but I have downloaded the NPC project but don't know how to get it "into" the game. Get a pop up box saying "not directed to a game directory" or some such.
We have windows 8, so that has completely nullified even the very little understanding of how the damn PC works that I ever had.
I have been playing BG since it was first released, it would be great to try some of the things I read about on the forums all the time.
@UnderstandMouseMagic - You need to install to the directory that contains the CHITIN.KEY file.
The directory C:\Program Files\Baldur's Gate Enhanced Edition\ is the directory for the game launcher. The game directory is located in a sub-directory of that, C:\Program Files\Baldur's Gate Enhanced Edition\Data\00766.
Note, if you downloaded from Steam, the game directory should be located in the SteamApps directory.
I personally really like Kivan, the only thing that annoys me is once I've killed Tazok at the bandit camp and he has his revenge speech he then continues to go on about getting revenge against Tazok in later dialogue.
Also random question but is Dynaheir's quest working? I met the elf and found two of the pages, he gave me one and there was a neutral gnoll that wouldn't talk to me so killed him, got another page and now I don't know what to do.
@UnderstandMouseMagic - You need to install to the directory that contains the CHITIN.KEY file.
The directory C:\Program Files\Baldur's Gate Enhanced Edition\ is the directory for the game launcher. The game directory is located in a sub-directory of that, C:\Program Files\Baldur's Gate Enhanced Edition\Data\00766.
Note, if you downloaded from Steam, the game directory should be located in the SteamApps directory.
Thank you so much, what you said explained something in a way I could actually understand.
Managed to find the correct directory and am playing it now, result.
Though Imoen didn't last long (I tried, I really tried but it got to the point where I was hoping Irenicus would turn up early and take her off my hands, on the the road to the FAI wouldn't have been soon enough).
A few people find Imoen's chattiness annoying, I suppose, and the NPC Project kicks that up about five notches. I've always found her chattiness endearing, though. I'm very quiet and soft-spoken in real life, and I gravitate towards people with bright personalities like Imoen's, so they will do most of the talking for me.
There's even a nice dialog response where I can tell Imoen "Oh, you know me, I'm always quiet and thinking about stuff," or words to that effect. Imoen's NPC Project personality is right on the money, for me.
BTW - if you don't like her "rambling", you have dialog responses to tell her so. I've never done that, so I'm not sure how she reacts if you try to shut her up, but I think she might talk less if you do.
@UnderstandMouseMagic - You need to install to the directory that contains the CHITIN.KEY file.
The directory C:\Program Files\Baldur's Gate Enhanced Edition\ is the directory for the game launcher. The game directory is located in a sub-directory of that, C:\Program Files\Baldur's Gate Enhanced Edition\Data\00766.
Note, if you downloaded from Steam, the game directory should be located in the SteamApps directory.
Thank you so much, what you said explained something in a way I could actually understand.
Managed to find the correct directory and am playing it now, result.
Though Imoen didn't last long (I tried, I really tried but it got to the point where I was hoping Irenicus would turn up early and take her off my hands, on the the road to the FAI wouldn't have been soon enough).
I had to re-read the instructions several times too to get it working/understand it. Glad you got it going. I'm enjoying it a lot. Too bad you don't like Imoen, she seems to be the most talkative one. I'll probably do my first evil play through after this playthrough and hang with the evil characters more.
A few people find Imoen's chattiness annoying, I suppose, and the NPC Project kicks that up about five notches. I've always found her chattiness endearing, though. I'm very quiet and soft-spoken in real life, and I gravitate towards people with bright personalities like Imoen's, so they will do most of the talking for me.
There's even a nice dialog response where I can tell Imoen "Oh, you know me, I'm always quiet and thinking about stuff," or words to that effect. Imoen's NPC Project personality is right on the money, for me.
BTW - if you don't like her "rambling", you have dialog responses to tell her so. I've never done that, so I'm not sure how she reacts if you try to shut her up, but I think she might talk less if you do.
I reload and go through a lot of the difference choices. I've told her to shut up some, just to see the result. She called my character grumpy I think, then shut up lol.
Comments
edit: Sure, but even if vanilla BG1 didn't have banters to flesh out characters, as was mentioned in this topic, NPCs had personalities presented via voice clips and few dialogues. We could also judge the personality from the lines they randomly say to each other (interact.2da, death.2da). I think complaints about Kivan are not because he is whinny. It's because his whining seems to not fit how majority of players perceived this character in vanilla game. While I think NPC Project did awesome job on expanding NPCs and at the same time staying true to vanilla game (I think that was the goal?), what it does to Kivan is unacceptable.
edit2: on the other hand "My soul aches for my lost Deheriana." line may indeed allow for this interpretation of character. Still I think he deserves better than how he is portrayed in BG1 NPC Project.
Lets take a look at his in game biography:
Kivan reveals that he hails from the forest of Shilmista, though he has not visited his homeland for quite some time. He has instead been traveling the world driven by the darkest of obsessions: revenge. Kivan and his mate Deheriana were apparently on a romantic sojourn years ago when they were waylaid by a group of Brigands. They were captured and tortured for the amusement of Tazok, the half-ogre that led the attack. Kivan eventually escaped, but Deheriana did not survive the encounter. Kivan is a man of few words, and obviously does not make friends easily. Likely, he will not take much pleasure from life until he has revenged the death of his love
The words romance and love are even used in his biography. In my opinion, Domi got it right.
Of course, everyone gets different impressions of the NPCs. That’s perfectly understandable, and in my opinion, a good thing. It allows a wide variety of players to find something to like about the different NPCs, adding enjoyment to their own game. Our own likes and dislikes, not to mention our different life experiences, are bound to color our perceptions of the different characters.
I only object to the notion that one players interpretation of an NPC is the only way they should be interpreted. That, and when it comes to a modded NPC, the notion that just because the mods author didn’t perceive the NPC in the same way that some other players did, they must have done it “wrong” or “badly”.
But honestly, that's why I added "in my humble opinion", "for me", etc. to my posts. Of course, just because I didn't like it doesn't mean that nobody may like it. But as the OP asked for recommendations, I gave him my recommendation - and my reasons why I recommended not to add Kivan to his party. That is of course just my opinion and not the clear-cut, from all to be adhered to truth.
If you allow me a question: Do you really think that Kivan's BG1NPC author actually portrayed Kivan in the way the original game developers from BioWare intended him to be? Or did you just state that to prove your point that things can be interpreted differently?
I mean, sure, the words romance and love are used in Kivan's in-game biography, but only to illuminate why he is on a vendetta for several years now. The emphasis - and I honestly don't think this could possibly interpreted differently - is on Kivan being "driven by the darkest of obsessions: revenge", and that he has been hunting Tazok for years now to take his revenge.
As I see it, Kivan was not intended to be an introspective, whiny/sentimental elf pondering the greatness of his loss, sharing his cruel fate with his travelling acquaintances in all verboseness, but rather that Kivan is a "man of few words", driven by his anger to retaliate upon Tazok for torturing Deheriana to death.
If you allow me a question: Do you really think that Kivan's BG1NPC author actually portrayed Kivan in the way the original game developers from BioWare intended him to be? Or did you just state that to prove your point that things can be interpreted differently?
Yes, I honestly believe that the general way that Domi portrayed him was very close to the vision of the original writer. Of course, I can’t possibly know that for sure as I can’t ask them.
Of course, it doesn’t matter in the least how I see him when it comes to you and your game enjoyment. If I personally felt that the writing for any of the NPCs really didn’t fit with my own cannon view of them, I would skip using that NPC in favor of one who hit all the right notes for me personally.
Believe me, I have found myself feeling that a mod authors interpretation of an NPC differed greatly from my own on more than one occasion. It doesn’t matter. They are not obligated to make their vision match my own. I’m just grateful that they kindly gave me the opportunity to benefit from all of their hard work. If it’s not to my liking, I will move on to content that better suits me personally. Letting others who find that content appealing and fun enjoy it.
@AstroBryGuy used the terms blood, sweat and tears. He’s not exaggerating. It’s a lot of work, folks.
Get a pop up box saying "not directed to a game directory" or some such.
We have windows 8, so that has completely nullified even the very little understanding of how the damn PC works that I ever had.
I have been playing BG since it was first released, it would be great to try some of the things I read about on the forums all the time.
Thank you if you can help.
The directory C:\Program Files\Baldur's Gate Enhanced Edition\ is the directory for the game launcher. The game directory is located in a sub-directory of that, C:\Program Files\Baldur's Gate Enhanced Edition\Data\00766.
Note, if you downloaded from Steam, the game directory should be located in the SteamApps directory.
Also random question but is Dynaheir's quest working? I met the elf and found two of the pages, he gave me one and there was a neutral gnoll that wouldn't talk to me so killed him, got another page and now I don't know what to do.
Managed to find the correct directory and am playing it now, result.
Though Imoen didn't last long (I tried, I really tried but it got to the point where I was hoping Irenicus would turn up early and take her off my hands, on the the road to the FAI wouldn't have been soon enough).
There's even a nice dialog response where I can tell Imoen "Oh, you know me, I'm always quiet and thinking about stuff," or words to that effect. Imoen's NPC Project personality is right on the money, for me.
BTW - if you don't like her "rambling", you have dialog responses to tell her so. I've never done that, so I'm not sure how she reacts if you try to shut her up, but I think she might talk less if you do.