Is there a way to add 2 kits to a multi or duel class character?
SmilingSword
Member Posts: 827
As the title says, is this possible?
It's easy to add one kit with EE keeper, but 2 seems to be a no go.
Really wanna try silly things like a kensai/assassin or swashbuckler/wildmage or a zerker/cleric of Talos or something like that.
It's easy to add one kit with EE keeper, but 2 seems to be a no go.
Really wanna try silly things like a kensai/assassin or swashbuckler/wildmage or a zerker/cleric of Talos or something like that.
Post edited by SmilingSword on
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The issue arises from the fact that .cre files in the Enhanced Editions (and also any original Baldur's Gate game) only have a single dword (4 bytes) at offset 0x244 reserved for kits. This means that the game files can only handle a single kit on any creature.
Or take a human: Let's presume he's an accomplished Assassin who decides it's easier to earn money not with murdering specific targets while on his own, but with being hired as part of a large group to battle other large groups, so he becomes a mercenary (= any Fighter), the game says it's all fine and dandy to do so (Assassin -> Fighter is allowed). But presume the opposite: A mercenary who decides he'll earn more money when eliminating specific targets on his own instead of being part of a large group, the game tells you that this is a no-go (Fighter -> Assassin isn't allowed). To me, that restriction doesn't make sense from a roleplaying point of view.
Or, directly from the events of BG2: After playing through BG1 you get captured by a magician who kills some of your friends and tortures you and some of your friends - wouldn't it make sense that your PC, let's say a Bounty Hunter, starts loathing wizards? Wouldn't then a class change Bounty Hunter -> Wizard Slayer make sense as well?
And in my example above, the Bounty Hunter -> Wizard Slayer would certainly not follow a single career path, but would first follow the career path of Bounty Hunter, and then, due to the life-changing events at the start of BG2, would abandon that career path (although still using what he learned during his time as a Bounty Hunter) and would start a completely new career path he now follows exclusively - the path of a Wizard Slayer.
By the way, I just checked my old 2e rulebooks from back in the day (Complete Fighters and Complete Thieves), and both rulebooks (who introduced the respective kits) specifically allowed not only dual-classing away from a kit, but as well dual-classing into a kit (so my above Fighter -> Assassin dual class is actually a legal dual-class option in 2e, specifically allowed by the rules).
Anyway, I just wanted to note that it may not always be a power gaming attitude that might lead you to mod the BG games, but roleplaying reasons might do the same (and, btw, I certainly wouldn't count a Bounty Hunter -> Wizard Slayer as cheating oneself godly power, but more or less gimping your character for roleplaying purposes).
1 - Outliers actually supported your claim
2 - more importantly 2E had such restrictions
Outliers shows that it takes practice to achieve mastery, which the 2E rules suggest should indeed take place; however, 2E rules also explicitly allow both multiclass kits and kits for a dual-class's second class.
We appreciate that despite the game engine you are your own best DM; however, not all of us agree with your definition of fun. As such, 'tweaking a rule further from PnP to make the game more fun' is not necessarily a good tweak.
While we cannot say whether the kits were designed solely for single class characters or not, it seems inconceivable that given the level of BG1 modding, there would be no consideration of the possibility of multi/dual-class kit use. After all, BG1 supported dualling to what would become Mage kits. That said, we have not seen any official word one way or the other.
Certainly we agree that given the official PnP existence of multi/dual-class kits their inclusion would have been preferable; however, your own post expresses a frustration with the game engine (as indeed so to do your many excellent mods) that need not be a factor in this case.
[And in this case it is not even an engine issue so much as a GUI problem since the engine actually somewhat supports it]
PnP supports kitting multi & dual-class characters and kEEper lets you assign them after the fact. That said, not all kits are better than the kitless class and the relative power balance between individual kits fluctuates wildly throughout the series as do the classes themselves - just like in PnP!
So, to make a long story short, the way dual-classing is implemented raises the exact same roleplaying issues regardless if you dual into a pure class or a kit. Not only an Enchanter needs time and training to learn how to cast spells, how to read and write magic, etc. - a pure class Wizard needs this training, too.
What is more, some kits do not represent specialist trainig - a Wild Mage, for example, isn't a Wizard with some specialist training, but a Wizard who is born with a natural special aptitude, so his special talent would simply start to show while he receives ordinary, pure-class training. And (again) the cleric kits - the kitted clerics don't train for their special abilities, their deity grants them these abilities, they simply know how to do it in an instant (the very instant a divine being decides that this Human should simply know how to do it).
So you should either speak up against any dual-classing (for roleplaying reasons), or let people dual into a kit if they want to (if you disregard the roleplaying issues you have with ANY dual-classing, even into pure classes).
As the game engine is limited to one kit per character, it would be perfectly viable to take a pure class first, and a kit second (and not only the other way round).
As for cleric-kits, those are special orders. And one does have to undergo special training/rites to gain admittance to an order. Not all clerics of Shar get inducted into the Nightcloaks. There are also the Dark Justiciars, Beguilers, and Darkcloaks. There are also some priests who aren't in an order.
Now, all priests of Shar should only get access to spells by particular spheres (this is not implemented), but the kit abilities should be reserved for the special orders.
Apart from that, I'm not sure how one can reasonably jump from "you should speak up" to "I want to control what opinions you're allowed to have"? - To make it clear, "you should speak up" was short for "if the aforementioned roleplaying concerns are your main reasons to speak up against dualling into kits, it would make more sense to speak up against dualling as a whole, as the aforementioned roleplaying reasons apply for individuals dualling into pure classes as well". But seeing that I'm not perfect, I'm sure that what I said was easily mistakeable for your perfectly reasonable deductions as me trying to deprive you of these damn well pleasing opinions you have...
While with your edit, you actually stated that you indeed speak up against all dual-classing, why should I make a mod that disallows dual-classing? - If I (or anybody else) doesn't want to dual-class, I simply don't. No mod needed.
I believe there was this cool Arabian Undead Hunter guy named Talib the Magnificent who was like a Fighter/Necromancer (Deathslayer).
Fighter Handbook 9th printing was Oct 1994; first printing seems to indicate Dec 1989. It does not seem to incorporate any errata or other corrections. It appears to be merely a verbatim re-printing.
The Complete Thief's Handbook (1989? & Jan 1990? & Nov 1993) places no such restriction on second class kits:
Priest Handbook (Jun 1990?) explicitly allows multi-class to take a kit, but extends this restriction to Dual-class as well: single kit total. Of course, it also makes a distinction between Priesthoods/Faiths and Kits...
Wizard Handbook (Aug 1990? & Oct 1994) makes no mention of Multi or Dual-class exclusions or exceptions; however, it does make clear that Specialist Wizards are NOT kits and indeed can take kits themselves as well as multiclass.
[in fact the Complete book of Necromancers (Apr 1995?) lists Necromancer specific kits - no kit restrictions whatsoever]
Bard's Handbook (Apr 1992? & 4th, Nov 1994) does not address multi or dual class kits, but unlike other classes does permit a Bard to swap his initial kit in a limited fashion.
[yes, Bard's can multi & dual]
Ranger Handbook (Dec 1993? & 3rd, Jul 1994 & 4th, Oct 1996): A Ranger chooses a character kit at the outset of his ranger's career; only one kit can be chosen for a particular ranger. Dual-class Rangers may be of any character kit allowed in the campaign. No discussion of multi-class kits, although the Ranger/Druid multi is explicitly permitted.
Paladin Handbook (May 1994?): A Paladin may only have one kit; Dual-class have access to any allowed kit. Obviously there is no multi-class section, but "demipaladins" should be Fighter/Clerics... Mazzy?!?!?
Barbarian (Feb 1995?) may only have one kit; dual-class Barbs have access to any compatible kit allowed in the campaign. Barbs may multiclass with Cleric.
[although not explicitly stated, presumably Shamans (Barbarian Clerics) could then also multi with Fighter]
Druid (Aug 1994?) confirms validity of Ranger/Druid, Druid/Mage & F/M/D and numerous Dual-class possibilities, but nothing on kit limits.
Dwarves (Nov 1991? & Nov 1993): No mention of dual-classes obviously...
Elves (1992? & Jan 1993?): A character cannot have two kits; it is only possible to have one kit at time. Multiclass kit selection same as Dwarves.
Gnomes & Halflings (Mar 1993? & 3rd, Feb 1994): Once a character has been assigned a kit, that selection remains for the life of the character as a character who is assigned one kit can never exchange that kit for another. Multiclass kits as per Dwarves.
Humanoids (May 1993? & 5th, Jul 1995 & 6th, Mar 1999) allows only one humanoid kit per character but places no further restrictions on multi & dual-classes.
Finally Forgotten Realms specific:
Wizards and Rogues & Warriors and Priest of the Realms (1995?/Feb 1996?) state that if there is a contradiction between a Handbook and the Realms, that the latter takes precedence. Neither book places any general limits on kits, although specific kits themselves can have restrictions.
Faiths & Avatars (Mar 1996?) generally prohibts (human) specialty priests from selecting a kit with few exceptions; however, Demihuman Deities (Dec 1998?) generally permits (demihuman) specialty priests to select a kit. Unfortunately, Powers & Pantheons (Sept 1997?) makes no mention of kits whatsoever although it does have some interesting Human MULTIclassing...
Demihumans of the Realms (1998? & Jan 1999?) deliberately makes mention of a modification to previous guidelines regarding kit usage: a multiclass character many only have one kit, which can be applied to only one of the character's classes.
Therefore, as there are thus numerous examples of both internal inconsistences/disagreements with kit selection AND that in theory newer rules replace older rules we do not believe that it can conclusively be stated outright "that you can only have one kit". If nothing else certain combinations do not explicitly disallow multiple kits. In fact, given that certain races/classes have the ability to select kits that are not appropriate to their class, that would even allow them to bypass the restriction on dualing into a Fighter kit!
Certainly possible that the conclusion could be that a character is to only have a single ACTIVE Kit; however, as it currently stands various combinations permit multiple simultaneous kits.
Dual Class Human: 5th level Desert Warrior/16th-level
Necromancer (Deathslayer)
Though, the post above me seems to solve the matter completely now XD
The multi-kit mod 'builds' an entirely new kit by combining all the functions of the selected kits into a single kit. This built kit then is assigned to the character's single kit slot. It works well enough although installing is finicky to say the least on the EEs. Since it is off to a good start, updating and finishing this would probably achieve the desired multiple kit goal...
For dual class chars, we can already change the kit to match the second class. In most cases this works well enough as you rarely lose the previous gained abilities, although disadvantages and penalties can be mistakenly annulled.
Multi-class characters can exploit this to manually change the active kit to match the class leveling up; however, classes that level at the exact same XP point do cause issues.
Both cases require considerable use of kEEper and often the assignment of effects to fully duplicate multiple kits...
In any event, as before we see no need to delay new kit abilities or remove previous kit effects given that the rules often explicitly allow it. Certainly there is some power creep (as there was with the introduction of kits, etc to begin with), but as the game is single player and not inherently balanced to begin with that should simply not be a concern.
This is a big post, so I'll put it in spoilers to disguise the fact that I'm talking too much.
I tweak characters to make them more interesting. A Kensai/Assassin isn't interesting to me, because it's just a Kensai/Thief with bigger damage. But a Stalker Monk would be interesting because it's a backstabbing monk.
Still, I think "I want a 200-damage backstab" is an okay reason for making a Kensai/Assassin. A Fighter/Thief would want the same thing.
The Michael Jordan analogy doesn't quite fit: MJ spent 20 years playing basketball, and wasn't a star baseball player, but that doesn't mean the basketball kit is incompatible with the baseball kit. It means he's a level 20 basketball player dualing to a level 1 baseball. His stats are okay; he just doesn't have enough XP. Give him another 21 years (lifespan isn't too relevant by comparison since your character in BG hits level 40 in 2 years) and he'll be a level 20/21 baseball/basketball player and he'll be a pro at both sports. Basketball doesn't render him incapable of playing professional baseball; he just didn't have enough XP to be a level 20 baseball player. A multi-class level 15/15 baseball player/basketball player could play both sports extremely well--he or she just wouldn't be able to play as well at either of them compared to a level 20 character. The abilities are still there.
Think about it. A class is a form of specialization. A mage doesn't learn to swing a sword because he or she wants to read books. A kit is another form of specialization. The specialist mage doesn't read certain books to make room for others.
Multi-classes are a form of generalization. A Fighter/Thief learns less about fighting to learn more about stealth. A Kensai/Bounty Hunter does the same, and also learns less about armor to learn more about weapons, and learns less about locks to learn more about traps.
It's all different levels of specialization. I study Chinese instead of French, political science instead of biology, history instead of religion, and diplomacy instead of finance. You could call me a Chinese Speaker/Historian/Diplomat, a triple-kitted character, or an Analyst on Chinese Politics, a single-kitted character.
Kits impose penalties as well as grant bonuses. More kits doesn't mean a better character. Use Any Item can negate some penalties, but that speaks to the power of UAI, not any kit.
The original Bioware kits don't always give big bonuses for small penalties. Sometimes it's the other way around. But usually people combine stuff to make their characters more powerful, and so the better kits get chosen. That's why we ask for RP justifications for power-gamey builds, instead of power-gaming justifications for RP builds.