Uhm.. if a veteran fighter joins your group, because she is thankful of your rescue and thus is willing to help you on a rather ..insane quest (and breaking into spellhold is unlawful..), don't you think that telling her "Yeah, I know you have used these swords for your carrier and even recieved them as a reward from your Goddess, but I think you would be more efficient if you throw that away.." is kinda ..mean? I have NO idea how you want to justify that RP wise..
Their proficiencies are (imho) part of their background and characters.. and throwing that away maybe smart for PG, but there is no way you can call that RP. It is the same with Minsc. You can make the argument that dual-maces are actually more efficient for him, but he will still be a two-handed sword fighter character wise. (With Boo and Lalircor being his closest friends and advisors ofc ;-) )
Also.. just use the Enhanced Keeper if you want to reset her profs.
That last one seems a bit weird. I don't think Minsc's character has any particular attachment to the two-handed swords. Like, he comes with a proficiency in them, but he also comes with proficiency in maces and 2 weapon style.
Plus as a ranger he's kind of set up so that he has to learn new weapons as he goes on. Can't just keep putting points in 2 handed swords forever.
Well, you could always drop points into Halberd, Longbow, and Two-handed Weapon Style, but yeah, you do have a point. He eventually needs to branch out. Although, in-character, he does mention swords a lot. Hell, his bark for when an enemy can't be damaged by his weapon suggests that he "needs bigger sword."
No, I don't think that can ever balance out, because you're comparing a timing issue with a permanent nerf. Eventually, I'll get all the HLAs anyway, but I'll never get back the option to build her with the weapon proficiencies which I'd usually prefer her to use.
She hasn't been permanently nerfed. She's got the proficiency she was intended to have based on the designer's intent. The game is also working as intended. So, if she hasn't actually been nerfed, and the game is functioning properly, then there is nothing to fix. As others have pointed out, you're better off just Keepering this or modding it some other way.
Either that, or don't max your character's level in BG1 or SoD. Or, don't play SoD at all, or simply don't recruit Mazzy. Bioware/Overhaul haven't taken away any of your agency as a player. They've given you an array of choices that each have consequences. That is, ultimately, what these games are all about.
Yeah, I guess you're right. He does go on about swords a lot doesn't he? Guess I always just assumed he meant "Swords" figuratively to mean weapons in general. Like "Swords not words" meaning he's the type of guy who solves his problems through combat, rather than diplomatically.
Well, in that case, yeah, but looking at his weapon and whispering "need bigger sword," as his no effect bark implies, is a little different than asserting his philosophical stance on beating up bad guys.
In my experience, fighters usually end up about level 34 by the end of TOB. That means Mazzy gets 7 proficiency points after level 12. That's plenty to build into whatever you want to build her into.
Your Fighters may end up at level 34 in ToB, but I habitually play a pretty completionist game, and therefore either hit or nearly-hit the XP-cap ... I expect Mazzy to finish at 39 and thereby get her maximum quota of proficiencies. (And with the extra XP from SoD, it's all the more likely that Mazzy will nudge right up to hitting the cap at level 40.)
And no, 7 proficiency points after level 12 is not enough to build her into whatever I want. It varies a little from run to run depending upon exactly how she's set up, but I've usually found that I can't sit back and say "there, now she's properly finished" until I get that last point at level 39, typically just in time for the Final Battle. (I do like her to be good with more than one weapon, so that she can switch weapons situationally for various bonus effects, yet still be able to hit something ... and because I reckon in a RP sense that she'd want to be versatile.)
So, it's not comparing a timing issue with a permanent nerf. It's comparing a timing issue with a timing issue.
If you're eventually over-flowing with spare proficiency points, then that might be so. But since I find myself needing every possible point, yes it is precisely a comparison between a permanent and a timing issue. If I can recruit her at lower level, I can finish several varieties of (what I consider to be) a good build for her. If I have to recruit her at higher level, it's a permanent nerf that I can never get to that point, not merely a delay.
To get to Mazzy early you have to actively skip quite a few quests and experience rewards that a new player wouldn't know they needed to skip. So, just look at SoD as an optional quest that you don't necessarily have to take. Yes, it's new and shiny and IMHO looks like a lot of fun, but it's still optional. So, for those play throughs when you want Mazzy to fill a particular role that can't be achieved with that extra SoD experience, just don't take the optional "side quest" between the two games.
She hasn't been permanently nerfed. She's got the proficiency she was intended to have based on the designer's intent.
That's exactly what's in danger of ceasing to be so, which is precisely why it's a permanent nerf. Mazzy was (and currently is) designed to be recruitable at levels 8, 9 or 12, and those versions come (respectively) with *, ** or *** in Shortswords. The designers thereby gave us the choice of her melee proficiencies if we recruited her at the lower levels. In other words, it is the design intent that (if I choose to recruit her quickly) her level 9 and 12 proficiencies are whatever ones I chose for that run.
Instead of that, if the .cre files for level 8 and (perhaps) also level 9 are henceforth rendered redundant because we'll only be able to recruit her with the .cre file for level 12, then we have lost choices which her designers intended us to have.
As others have pointed out, you're better off just Keepering this or modding it some other way.
As others have pointed out in various contexts, if it becomes necessary to resort to mods and editors to cheat the game back into working the way it was intended to work, then it's broken, and that should be addressed by an official fix. So of course I could fix it for myself with 'keeper, but I'm contending that Beamdog ought to fix it for everyone.
Either that, or don't max your character's level in BG1 or SoD. Or, don't play SoD at all, or simply don't recruit Mazzy.
Not maxing your character's level in BG1ee is difficult, it's such a low cap that you'd deliberately have to omit a lot of the content to keep below the cap, and anyway the points in BG1ee are smaller numbers which might not make enough difference.
We don't yet know quite how it'll work in SoD, but even if it's easier to stay well under the cap without skipping loads of content, that's probably still going to be too much for the level 8 .cre file for Mazzy to be accessible, since it already (without SoD) requires going for Mazzy quickly to catch the most advantageous recruitment level. Also, it seems to me an exceptionally artificial strategy to be forced to distort your gameplay in SoD in order to retain the original design intent of BG2 - more so, IMO, than the sort of meta-gamery in which one might indulge within just one game alone.
"Don't play SoD at all" would obviously fix the problem, but I hope Beamdog would prefer to fix the problem in BG2ee rather than have people not playing SoD! And obviously it's grossly unsatisfactory for players to be faced with not being able to play the (longer) complete game, simply in order to keep some later sections working as they currently do.
"Don't recruit Mazzy" is indeed the default solution, for most runs, if the problem crystallizes in the form we're discussing. But that's rather my point: it cannot be the design intention of SoD to cause some of the BG2 characters to become less attractive options! That'd be a serious consideration for a lot of Good players, since Mazzy is their only Fighter NPC.
Therefore this needs a little adjustment to fix the problem. Fortunately it's very easy for them to do it, by the level-up-for-yourself method already discussed in this thread.
@Gallowglass If you so desperately need Mazzy to be a certain level when you meet her but you still want to play SoD why not walk into a couple of vampires and lose a few levels before you go to pick her up?
To get to Mazzy early you have to actively skip quite a few quests and experience rewards that a new player wouldn't know they needed to skip.
Not really. You meet Delon as soon as you visit the Government District, which is probably pretty early, and Delon gives you the quest which leads to Mazzy. Obviously an experienced player seeking Mazzy would follow this quest knowing where it leads, but also it's perfectly plausible that a brand-new player might happen to choose that quest early, either randomly or because (for example) he's curious to see what's outside Athkatla.
So, just look at SoD as an optional quest that you don't necessarily have to take. Yes, it's new and shiny and IMHO looks like a lot of fun, but it's still optional. So, for those play throughs when you want Mazzy to fill a particular role that can't be achieved with that extra SoD experience, just don't take the optional "side quest" between the two games.
"Don't play SoD" is going to be asking people to skip a great deal of content, and I'm sure it's not the conclusion which Beamdog want people to reach.
@Gallowglass There is no "problem." There is nothing to fix. As it has been illustrated by multiple people several times over, nothing in the game is failing to work, and the character hasn't been negatively altered in any way.
You have your options. Edit the character. Do not recruit the character. Recruit the character and accept the consequences of being overleveled. Skip the extra sidequest that is SoD. Skip some sidequests in BG1. Do any combination of these things. Your "problem" is purely a gameplay preference. It would be a waste of Overhaul's time to "fix" your issue, and I simply do not want them to waste that time.
Correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't this already a problem for some classes? Thieves, Bards, and Druids can reach Level 10 in BG1, and Mages can reach level 9. So Tales of the Sword Coast already messed with Mazzy's entry level by removing the Level 8 option for all but fighter classes and multis, but TotSC was released first so apparently the original designers were okay with the idea that some characters wouldn't be able to get Mazzy at Lvl 8.
@Gallowglass Mazzy isn't being nerfed. She isn't being changed at all.
Losing access to her lower-level recruitiment options is a change.
Her files aren't being changed, that's true ... but you're being changed, and various details of the game around you are affected, because of the higher-level start. The effect on Mazzy looks like a nerf and acts like a nerf, so I'm calling it a nerf. (I suppose "unintended nerf-like consequence" might be more accurate, but it's too much of a mouthful.)
If you so desperately need Mazzy to be a certain level when you meet her but you still want to play SoD why not walk into a couple of vampires and lose a few levels before you go to pick her up?
I suppose that might work, and I admit I hadn't even thought of doing that ... but heck, that sort of thing shouldn't be necessary, merely in order to regain the original design functionality. Also, I'm not sure whether or not level-drain is taken into account when calculating which .cre file is used in the recruitment of an NPC. Do you know whether it is?
Furthermore, however, remember that I'm only discussing Mazzy as one example of the issue, there are other characters who will also become awkward to recruit before they level up in a way you might not want. I never thought I'd find myself saying that there might not be enough vampires in the streets of Athkatla, but ...
To get to Mazzy early you have to actively skip quite a few quests and experience rewards that a new player wouldn't know they needed to skip.
Not really. You meet Delon as soon as you visit the Government District, which is probably pretty early, and Delon gives you the quest which leads to Mazzy. Obviously an experienced player seeking Mazzy would follow this quest knowing where it leads, but also it's perfectly plausible that a brand-new player might happen to choose that quest early, either randomly or because (for example) he's curious to see what's outside Athkatla.
It could happen, true, but I don't think it's the most likely outcome.
So, just look at SoD as an optional quest that you don't necessarily have to take. Yes, it's new and shiny and IMHO looks like a lot of fun, but it's still optional. So, for those play throughs when you want Mazzy to fill a particular role that can't be achieved with that extra SoD experience, just don't take the optional "side quest" between the two games.
"Don't play SoD" is going to be asking people to skip a great deal of content, and I'm sure it's not the conclusion which Beamdog want people to reach.
I don't think that many people would skip it just to get Mazzy, and I'm guessing quite a few won't even realize anything has changed. But it's not required that you skip anything since there are various ways to still get Mazzy at Lvl 8, even ones which don't require cheating.
That said, if Beamdog wants to add more options, I'm all for it. I don't think the game has to remain as-is with something like the levels of acquired NPCs, so if they think it's an issue by all means they should change it. It's not an issue for me, but that doesn't mean it isn't for some. It's just a matter of how many will have an issue with it and how much work it would take to help those people.
Correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't this already a problem for some classes? Thieves, Bards, and Druids can reach Level 10 in BG1, and Mages can reach level 9. So Tales of the Sword Coast already messed with Mazzy's entry level by removing the Level 8 option for all but fighter classes and multis, but TotSC was released first so apparently the original designers were okay with the idea that some characters wouldn't be able to get Mazzy at Lvl 8.
Bingo. When it comes to characters imported between BGEE and BG2EE you already have to go out of your way to get her level 8 variant (and frankly you have to ignore a lot even with non-imported characters). Particularly given all the side quests found in Athkatla and in BG1. So its hardly like the original designers of the game really expected you'd be picking her up at level 8 when using an imported character. Bioware after all also programmed Tiax and Quayle in BG1 to have level 2/2 versions but I doubt they seriously expected people to be entering Baldur's Gate with level 2 characters.
I'm impressed at how much everyone in here is ganging up on Gallowglass for wanting to be able to play a game the way he would like, without having to use outside resources (also if someone isn't playing on PC isn't it a LOT more difficult/impossible to keeper saves?) As I stated before, ToB leveling system ala the Fate Statues seems the way to go. Do the rest of you not agree with that or something? Why do you all care so much if he doesn't want to "roleplay" Mazzy?
Also suggesting not playing the new expansion is just dumb. Come on, if someone didn't care about playing Siege of Dragonspear, they wouldn't be on this forum, posting about the new game.
I'm impressed at how much everyone in here is ganging up on Gallowglass for wanting to be able to play a game the way he would like, without having to use outside resources (also if someone isn't playing on PC isn't it a LOT more difficult/impossible to keeper saves?) As I stated before, ToB leveling system ala the Fate Statues seems the way to go. Do the rest of you not agree with that or something? Why do you all care so much if he doesn't want to "roleplay" Mazzy?
Also suggesting not playing the new expansion is just dumb. Come on, if someone didn't care about playing Siege of Dragonspear, they wouldn't be on this forum, posting about the new game.
I don't mean to be ganging up on anyone. I usually don't get involved in these sorts of arguments at all, but I found this one interesting. I'm not opposed in any way to the Beamdog folks making the sort of change Gallowglass suggests. I just don't see it as being a pressing issue for the majority of players. That doesn't mean it wouldn't be nice to make the change for those who are concerned about it. Given the level of nostalgia and love for BG though, any change, even a minor one, is likely to raise the ire of certain other players of the game.
As for suggesting not playing the expansion, I only said that (and I know others said it as well) as a possible non-cheat solution to getting Mazzy early. It's hardly a necessity to skip it since there are other ways to get Mazzy (like not leveling up during SoD and waiting until after picking up Mazzy to level up) without using third party editors.
Correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't this already a problem for some classes? Thieves, Bards, and Druids can reach Level 10 in BG1, and Mages can reach level 9. So Tales of the Sword Coast already messed with Mazzy's entry level by removing the Level 8 option for all but fighter classes and multis, but TotSC was released first so apparently the original designers were okay with the idea that some characters wouldn't be able to get Mazzy at Lvl 8.
It was only a slight problem, which is now in danger of becoming significantly worse.
Previously, it might arise in special cases, such as soloing with a single-class Thief but then deciding to link up with Mazzy. Bioware balanced the game (including recruitment levels) on an assumption of party play, and if you take a party then your companions usually drag down your average level a little, so that it was generally still (just) possible to recruit Mazzy at level 8. The requirement is that the average level of the party is below 9 (even if only a tiny fraction below), which is generally still the case with the starting party.
With everyone levelled up by 1 or even 2 levels by SoD, this is no longer going to work, and a very rare issue is going to become a significantly more widespread problem.
I thought the recruitment level was based on how much experience you have, not your character level. So when you're playing a thief or bard you'll generally recruit characters a level or two below you because 10 bard levels don't translate into 10 fighter levels.
I can tell you from personal experience in BGEE that it's based on level, not XP. I ran as a level 2 character until I reached Baldur's Gate in order to pick up Tiax at his lowest level variant. I'm not sure about BG2EE as I've never tried it there, but I think it is probably the same.
The requirement is that the average level of the party is below 9 (even if only a tiny fraction below), which is generally still the case with the starting party.
Then BG2EE must be a little different from BGEE. I leveled up all my companions in BGEE as I went along, but left my PC as a level 2 in order to get various late game NPCs at their lowest variants.
I thought the recruitment level was based on how much experience you have, not your character level. So when you're playing a thief or bard you'll generally recruit characters a level or two below you because 10 bard levels don't translate into 10 fighter levels.
Nope its based on your character level when you enter the area that particular NPC is in. In the case of multi-classes its your highest level. I don't remember how dual classes get treated (I almost never play them heh)
Edit: Looks like I was initially partly wrong. It is based on the average of your levels in BG2 at least.
After much deliberation, I have developed an eight-step process to assuring you are still able to recruit Mazzy (or any character) at the desired level while simultaneously enjoying your play-through of the entire series.
1) Export your BG1:EE character. 2) Save it. 3) Import your BG1:EE character into the SoD expansion. 4) Play the SoD expansion. 5) Export your BG:SoD character. 6) Completely ignore the fact that you have an exported SoD character 7) Import your BG1:EE character into BG2:EE and pretend that Irenicus drained the levels from you. 8) Celebrate because you now have a role-play reason for why you lost levels between SoD and BG2 and a Mazzy who is patiently awaiting recruitment into the League of Extraordinary Power-Gamers.
In that case it sounds like this actually could be a problem for some characters. Importing a thief or bard from SoD you'd start outleveling the other recruitable companions from the moment you start the game. Could easily be looking at a situation where your 6th party member has to spend some time catching up with the rest of the group.
I'm sure Beamdog has some plan for that though. Probably will be addressed in the patches that will accompany the expansion.
The thing is, if you're outleveling NPCs because you're a thief or bard, they probably still have comparable experience unless you're getting way out there. Mazzy's level 12 CRE file, for instance, has 1.2 million experience, or about three times what a level 12 thief has. You're probably not going to be worrying about them having to catch up to you.
(An additional wrinkle in joining levels in BG2 is that I believe the new EE NPCs are set based on your experience level as opposed to party level, just to make things extra confusing.)
"her intended proficiency progression" is quite an assumption. If you pick her up at 12th level, the game HAS to assign her some proficiency slots, or just burn and lose them (BG2 used to have PCs with incorrect weapon slots, notably Anomen). The game designers will go with something that either thematically makes sense, or seems interesting, but if the idea is that character should have an /intended/ progression, there should be strong hints within the game, or even take the choice out of the players' hands entirely when it comes to leveling up - but that has never been the structure of any BG game.
More to the point, it is common to pick up these characters today well below 12th level - how would I know the /intended/ progression unless I took extra effort to play a game specifically picking them up at the highest level possible (experimentally determined by waiting till end of Chapter 6 to recruit most folks) in order to set up the metagaming knowledge to inform my future plays? That is not how I interpret the intended play style of an exploratory RPG.
So, then how is picking Mazzy's proficiencies based on metagame knowledge of weapons available later in the game in "the intended play style of an exploratory RPG" ?
In that case it sounds like this actually could be a problem for some characters. Importing a thief or bard from SoD you'd start outleveling the other recruitable companions from the moment you start the game. Could easily be looking at a situation where your 6th party member has to spend some time catching up with the rest of the group.
I'm sure Beamdog has some plan for that though. Probably will be addressed in the patches that will accompany the expansion.
The thing is, if you're outleveling NPCs because you're a thief or bard, they probably still have comparable experience unless you're getting way out there. Mazzy's level 12 CRE file, for instance, has 1.2 million experience, or about three times what a level 12 thief has. You're probably not going to be worrying about them having to catch up to you.
(An additional wrinkle in joining levels in BG2 is that I believe the new EE NPCs are set based on your experience level as opposed to party level, just to make things extra confusing.)
Oh for sure, on a one on one level. But just thinking in terms of the group dynamics. Let's say there's you, level 12 at the start of the game. Then you recruit Minsc, he's level 12. Go on four more adventures to recruit four more party members. By the time we get to number six we're looking at a situation where the early recruits have all gained a few levels already. Got let's say a level 15 Minsc and a level 12 Valygar.
Which I guess wouldn't necessarily be game breaking or anything but now the levels are all skewed and it'll be a while before Valygar stands on equal footing with the rest of the group.
Valygar's got a killer blade already. Its description is currently incorrect (I just reported it after noticing that fact) but it does 1 poison damage every 2 seconds (which makes it particularly great against mages). On top of that he is probably just itching to use Celestial Fury. So I think he'll be fine
I'm impressed at how much everyone in here is ganging up on Gallowglass for wanting to be able to play a game the way he would like, without having to use outside resources (also if someone isn't playing on PC isn't it a LOT more difficult/impossible to keeper saves?) As I stated before, ToB leveling system ala the Fate Statues seems the way to go. Do the rest of you not agree with that or something? Why do you all care so much if he doesn't want to "roleplay" Mazzy?
Also suggesting not playing the new expansion is just dumb. Come on, if someone didn't care about playing Siege of Dragonspear, they wouldn't be on this forum, posting about the new game.
I really don't care what he does with Mazzy. Mazzy is merely an example. That's not the issue. @Gallowglass is asking for a disproportionate amount of effort be spent by professional developers to change how the NPCs work in a finished product in order to allow him to "play a game the way he would like," despite how much simpler (and more likely to actually happen) it would be to use those outside resources. It's a fairly unrealistic request, especially given the readily available, and plentiful, alternatives. Edit the game yourself, play the game differently, or skip the expansion if playing it will negatively impact you. It really is just that simple. Would I be opposed to a ToB-style handling of NPCs? No. But, there's mods and EEKeeper for that, so I'd rather the devs focus on things that actually matter.
I'm impressed at how much everyone in here is ganging up on Gallowglass for wanting to be able to play a game the way he would like, without having to use outside resources (also if someone isn't playing on PC isn't it a LOT more difficult/impossible to keeper saves?) As I stated before, ToB leveling system ala the Fate Statues seems the way to go. Do the rest of you not agree with that or something? Why do you all care so much if he doesn't want to "roleplay" Mazzy?
Also suggesting not playing the new expansion is just dumb. Come on, if someone didn't care about playing Siege of Dragonspear, they wouldn't be on this forum, posting about the new game.
I really don't care what he does with Mazzy. Mazzy is merely an example. That's not the issue. @Gallowglass is asking for a disproportionate amount of effort be spent by professional developers to change how the NPCs work in a finished product in order to allow him to "play a game the way he would like," despite how much simpler (and more likely to actually happen) it would be to use those outside resources. It's a fairly unrealistic request, especially given the readily available, and plentiful, alternatives. Edit the game yourself, play the game differently, or skip the expansion if playing it will negatively impact you. It really is just that simple. Would I be opposed to a ToB-style handling of NPCs? No. But, there's mods and EEKeeper for that, so I'd rather the devs focus on things that actually matter.
I think you're being unreasonable to object against negative impacts to the current bg2 experience.
It really wouldn't be hard to make some effort to keep intact the game experience of bg2 and could lead to an improvement in experience across the entire franchise.
I think you're being unreasonable to object against negative impacts to the current bg2 experience.
It really wouldn't be hard to make some effort to keep intact the game experience of bg2 and could lead to an improvement in experience across the entire franchise.
But what Schneidend is saying is that such an improvement already exists as an optional tweak. BG2 Tweaks includes a component that does exactly what Gallowglass is looking for: "This component will alter all joinable NPCs to join in the same fashion as Throne of Bhaal, where NPCs immediately level-up upon joining, with a caveat: all creature files are moved down to their lowest experience version, so if you pick up an NPC early enough they will not level upon joining. However, later in the game they will, allowing you to select weapon proficiencies, thieving points, and other goodies from the level-up process."
Given that he is complaining about a problem that specifically bothers him but isn't necessarily an issue for everyone who uses Mazzy, there's no reason not to use the Tweak. And that goes for anyone else who has this problem. Why does it need to be officially implemented?
Because their addition of a new expansion is directly responsible for changing how the start of BGII will be for players who export into it? I believe I read somewhere that Beamdog is aware of the higher level changing things, and that they would address it. Does that simply mean Irenicus' dungeon will be harder? I don't know. However I don't feel it is unreasonable to request that Beamdog address this. Obviously they don't have to but it is something to consider.
@Gallowglass is asking for a disproportionate amount of effort be spent by professional developers to change how the NPCs work in a finished product in order to allow him to "play a game the way he would like," despite how much simpler (and more likely to actually happen) it would be to use those outside resources.
Disproportionate? How much effort do you think it would take?
Why are you all so vehemently defending this? Why can't you just agree that Gallowglass wants to be able to allocate proficiency points as he sees fit? It seems like if they don't make any change to the leveling system, you are all fine with it, and if they DO, then you also don't care. This entire thread has become pointless now, since it's just the same points back and forth of "I want to be able to level my characters as I like" and "Just edit your save or skip this new expansion."
Comments
help you on a rather ..insane quest (and breaking into spellhold is unlawful..), don't you think that telling
her "Yeah, I know you have used these swords for your carrier and even recieved them as a reward from
your Goddess, but I think you would be more efficient if you throw that away.." is kinda ..mean?
I have NO idea how you want to justify that RP wise..
Their proficiencies are (imho) part of their background and characters.. and throwing that away maybe
smart for PG, but there is no way you can call that RP.
It is the same with Minsc. You can make the argument that dual-maces are actually more efficient for
him, but he will still be a two-handed sword fighter character wise. (With Boo and Lalircor being his closest
friends and advisors ofc ;-) )
Also.. just use the Enhanced Keeper if you want to reset her profs.
Either that, or don't max your character's level in BG1 or SoD. Or, don't play SoD at all, or simply don't recruit Mazzy. Bioware/Overhaul haven't taken away any of your agency as a player. They've given you an array of choices that each have consequences. That is, ultimately, what these games are all about.
Plus there is this.
On a related note these arms seems legit as well
And no, 7 proficiency points after level 12 is not enough to build her into whatever I want. It varies a little from run to run depending upon exactly how she's set up, but I've usually found that I can't sit back and say "there, now she's properly finished" until I get that last point at level 39, typically just in time for the Final Battle. (I do like her to be good with more than one weapon, so that she can switch weapons situationally for various bonus effects, yet still be able to hit something ... and because I reckon in a RP sense that she'd want to be versatile.) If you're eventually over-flowing with spare proficiency points, then that might be so. But since I find myself needing every possible point, yes it is precisely a comparison between a permanent and a timing issue. If I can recruit her at lower level, I can finish several varieties of (what I consider to be) a good build for her. If I have to recruit her at higher level, it's a permanent nerf that I can never get to that point, not merely a delay. But in my case, apples-to-oranges is exactly it.
Instead of that, if the .cre files for level 8 and (perhaps) also level 9 are henceforth rendered redundant because we'll only be able to recruit her with the .cre file for level 12, then we have lost choices which her designers intended us to have. But my point is that, if we lose existing options for recruiting early and building as we choose, then that will not be "working as intended". As others have pointed out in various contexts, if it becomes necessary to resort to mods and editors to cheat the game back into working the way it was intended to work, then it's broken, and that should be addressed by an official fix. So of course I could fix it for myself with 'keeper, but I'm contending that Beamdog ought to fix it for everyone. Not maxing your character's level in BG1ee is difficult, it's such a low cap that you'd deliberately have to omit a lot of the content to keep below the cap, and anyway the points in BG1ee are smaller numbers which might not make enough difference.
We don't yet know quite how it'll work in SoD, but even if it's easier to stay well under the cap without skipping loads of content, that's probably still going to be too much for the level 8 .cre file for Mazzy to be accessible, since it already (without SoD) requires going for Mazzy quickly to catch the most advantageous recruitment level. Also, it seems to me an exceptionally artificial strategy to be forced to distort your gameplay in SoD in order to retain the original design intent of BG2 - more so, IMO, than the sort of meta-gamery in which one might indulge within just one game alone.
"Don't play SoD at all" would obviously fix the problem, but I hope Beamdog would prefer to fix the problem in BG2ee rather than have people not playing SoD! And obviously it's grossly unsatisfactory for players to be faced with not being able to play the (longer) complete game, simply in order to keep some later sections working as they currently do.
"Don't recruit Mazzy" is indeed the default solution, for most runs, if the problem crystallizes in the form we're discussing. But that's rather my point: it cannot be the design intention of SoD to cause some of the BG2 characters to become less attractive options! That'd be a serious consideration for a lot of Good players, since Mazzy is their only Fighter NPC.
Therefore this needs a little adjustment to fix the problem. Fortunately it's very easy for them to do it, by the level-up-for-yourself method already discussed in this thread.
There is no "problem." There is nothing to fix. As it has been illustrated by multiple people several times over, nothing in the game is failing to work, and the character hasn't been negatively altered in any way.
You have your options. Edit the character. Do not recruit the character. Recruit the character and accept the consequences of being overleveled. Skip the extra sidequest that is SoD. Skip some sidequests in BG1. Do any combination of these things. Your "problem" is purely a gameplay preference. It would be a waste of Overhaul's time to "fix" your issue, and I simply do not want them to waste that time.
Her files aren't being changed, that's true ... but you're being changed, and various details of the game around you are affected, because of the higher-level start. The effect on Mazzy looks like a nerf and acts like a nerf, so I'm calling it a nerf. (I suppose "unintended nerf-like consequence" might be more accurate, but it's too much of a mouthful.)
Furthermore, however, remember that I'm only discussing Mazzy as one example of the issue, there are other characters who will also become awkward to recruit before they level up in a way you might not want. I never thought I'd find myself saying that there might not be enough vampires in the streets of Athkatla, but ...
That said, if Beamdog wants to add more options, I'm all for it. I don't think the game has to remain as-is with something like the levels of acquired NPCs, so if they think it's an issue by all means they should change it. It's not an issue for me, but that doesn't mean it isn't for some. It's just a matter of how many will have an issue with it and how much work it would take to help those people.
Also suggesting not playing the new expansion is just dumb. Come on, if someone didn't care about playing Siege of Dragonspear, they wouldn't be on this forum, posting about the new game.
As for suggesting not playing the expansion, I only said that (and I know others said it as well) as a possible non-cheat solution to getting Mazzy early. It's hardly a necessity to skip it since there are other ways to get Mazzy (like not leveling up during SoD and waiting until after picking up Mazzy to level up) without using third party editors.
Previously, it might arise in special cases, such as soloing with a single-class Thief but then deciding to link up with Mazzy. Bioware balanced the game (including recruitment levels) on an assumption of party play, and if you take a party then your companions usually drag down your average level a little, so that it was generally still (just) possible to recruit Mazzy at level 8. The requirement is that the average level of the party is below 9 (even if only a tiny fraction below), which is generally still the case with the starting party.
With everyone levelled up by 1 or even 2 levels by SoD, this is no longer going to work, and a very rare issue is going to become a significantly more widespread problem.
Edit: Looks like I was initially partly wrong. It is based on the average of your levels in BG2 at least.
1) Export your BG1:EE character.
2) Save it.
3) Import your BG1:EE character into the SoD expansion.
4) Play the SoD expansion.
5) Export your BG:SoD character.
6) Completely ignore the fact that you have an exported SoD character
7) Import your BG1:EE character into BG2:EE and pretend that Irenicus drained the levels from you.
8) Celebrate because you now have a role-play reason for why you lost levels between SoD and BG2 and a Mazzy who is patiently awaiting recruitment into the League of Extraordinary Power-Gamers.
(An additional wrinkle in joining levels in BG2 is that I believe the new EE NPCs are set based on your experience level as opposed to party level, just to make things extra confusing.)
It really wouldn't be hard to make some effort to keep intact the game experience of bg2 and could lead to an improvement in experience across the entire franchise.
Given that he is complaining about a problem that specifically bothers him but isn't necessarily an issue for everyone who uses Mazzy, there's no reason not to use the Tweak. And that goes for anyone else who has this problem. Why does it need to be officially implemented?
Disproportionate? How much effort do you think it would take?
Why are you all so vehemently defending this? Why can't you just agree that Gallowglass wants to be able to allocate proficiency points as he sees fit? It seems like if they don't make any change to the leveling system, you are all fine with it, and if they DO, then you also don't care. This entire thread has become pointless now, since it's just the same points back and forth of "I want to be able to level my characters as I like" and "Just edit your save or skip this new expansion."