Romance and the SoD NPCs

Gallowglass

Here's a thought which I haven't noticed anyone else pointing out: none of the SoD NPCs will be romanceable.

Beamdog are allowing some possibility that eventually the SoD NPCs will be added to BG2ee, but they're certainly not committed to doing so. Therefore, the characters are currently being built on the assumption that they won't necessarily continue into BG2ee. Therefore, any romance with the new characters would either have to be fully completed within SoD (with nothing left for BG2ee if the characters were eventually to be continued) or left incomplete at the end of SoD (with no certainty of ever meeting the character again in BG2ee to complete the romance story), both of which would be pretty unsatisfying to the writers as well as to the players. Therefore, Beamdog won't (for the time being) bother developing any romance dialogues for the new SoD characters.

If at some later stage they take a firm decision to continue the new characters into BG2ee, then perhaps it'd then be worthwhile for them to develop romance options (probably for BG2ee only, but possibly also patching the early stages into SoD). But in the absence of a firm decision about continuing the characters, no, they won't waste their resources on unsatisfactory work.

gnaumiec

I don't know. Romances could be very possible, but all would have the same tragic end of charname being abducted and presumed dead by their loved one. Could be good story telling.

Fardragon

I suspect Beamdog has already thought about how the plotlines for the new characters could continue in BG2, but are waiting to see how they will be received. If everyone hates them (see: Hexxat) it might be preferable not to add them to BG2EE!

Schneidend

I could see some briefer romances that are more along the lines of flings fitting into SoD fairly easily. We'll just have to wait and see.

Fardragon said:

I suspect Beamdog has already thought about how the plotlines for the new characters could continue in BG2, but are waiting to see how they will be received. If everyone hates them (see: Hexxat) it might be preferable not to add them to BG2EE!

Not everybody hates Hexxat, and I have yet to see any reasoning as to why people dislike her beyond people stating she's just "obviously bad" as though it were objective fact.

jankiel

Schneidend said:

I could see some briefer romances that are more along the lines of flings fitting into SoD fairly easily. We'll just have to wait and see.

Fardragon said:

I suspect Beamdog has already thought about how the plotlines for the new characters could continue in BG2, but are waiting to see how they will be received. If everyone hates them (see: Hexxat) it might be preferable not to add them to BG2EE!

Not everybody hates Hexxat, and I have yet to see any reasoning as to why people dislike her beyond people stating she's just "obviously bad" as though it were objective fact.

Her questline was uber bleh.

shawne

Schneidend said:

Not everybody hates Hexxat, and I have yet to see any reasoning as to why people dislike her beyond people stating she's just "obviously bad" as though it were objective fact.

It actually takes more effort to be ignorant at this point - there have been countless discussions about the numerous problems with Hexxat's character and storyline. If you've been avoiding those discussions because, by your own admission, you haven't even played her questline through to the end, maybe withhold judgment on what are or are not valid reasons for disliking her.

Permidion_Stark

SoD has 25 hours of gameplay; my real life romances don't last anywhere near that long.

kcwise

Dating a Bhaalspawn? The poor SoDs...

Schneidend

jankiel said:

Her questline was uber bleh.

Really? I enjoyed the Tomb of Dragomir and the one with the mind flayers and umber hulks so far. They look cool and spooky, and they're fairly tough.

shawne said:

It actually takes more effort to be ignorant at this point - there have been countless discussions about the numerous problems with Hexxat's character and storyline. If you've been avoiding those discussions because, by your own admission, you haven't even played her questline through to the end, maybe withhold judgment on what are or are not valid reasons for disliking her.

Yes, I've been avoiding those threads, for the most part, but not necessarily out of a desire to avoid spoilers. Given that a lot of the people I've seen express the Hexxat hate have proven to be jackasses with superiority complexes, like Edwin_Odesseiron, I can only imagine the kind of sardonic echo chamber orgies such threads devolve into. If there is a way to get the skinny without witnessing a circlejerk about how obvious and self-evident Beamdog's "bad" writing is, feel free to link me to something constructive.

AWizardDidIt

I don't think romances should be a thing in SoD. It's not going to last long enough to feel like a complete romance will evolve naturally and since we *know* the SoD npcs aren't going to be in BG:EE2, it's going to make any romance feel incomplete by extension.

Fardragon

Brief summery of Hexxat problems:

1) railroaded plot. It's fine if the PC is evil, but if they are good they aren't even allowed to TRY and save Clara.

2) dungeons in her story arc feel rushed and incomplete. Gets worse as you go along.

3) resolution of her story arc (in ToB) is stupid, and makes Hexxat's motivation through the story nonsensical.

4) vampires are like dad trying to be trendy. They were very fashionable a couple of years ago, but zombies are the thing now.


Of those, the first two problems at least could have been overcome with a little more QA and development resources.

I hope Beamdog have leaned from this and will alocate sufficient resources to the new characters to make them rounded and plot-hole free.

shawne

Schneidend said:

Yes, I've been avoiding those threads, for the most part, but not necessarily out of a desire to avoid spoilers. Given that a lot of the people I've seen express the Hexxat hate have proven to be jackasses with superiority complexes, like Edwin_Odesseiron, I can only imagine the kind of sardonic echo chamber orgies such threads devolve into. If there is a way to get the skinny without witnessing a circlejerk about how obvious and self-evident Beamdog's "bad" writing is, feel free to link me to something constructive.

This was a particularly fruitful discussion with input from people who were interested in doing more than just mindless bashing. And it was far from the only one.

Permidion_Stark

Fardragon said:

4) vampires are like dad trying to be trendy. They were very fashionable a couple of years ago, but zombies are the thing now..

Hexxat as a zombie NPC! Now that would have made for an interesting romance option:

CHARNAME: Hexxat do you ever get lonely on the long nights by the campfire?

HEXXAT: Uurrrrr.

CHARNAME: It's good to have someone to talk to. Someone who understands me.

HEXXAT: Uurrrr.

CHARNAME: Have you ever thought of settling down when this is all over?

HEXXAT: Uurrr.

CHARNAME: Our night together was magical. At last I know how incredible physical love can be.

HEXXAT: Uurrr.

kcwise

Hey, don't give Anduin ideas. We don't need another collection of undead erotica short stories!

Arcanis

Fardragon said:

Brief summery of Hexxat problems:

1) railroaded plot. It's fine if the PC is evil, but if they are good they aren't even allowed to TRY and save Clara.

2) dungeons in her story arc feel rushed and incomplete. Gets worse as you go along.

3) resolution of her story arc (in ToB) is stupid, and makes Hexxat's motivation through the story nonsensical.

4) vampires are like dad trying to be trendy. They were very fashionable a couple of years ago, but zombies are the thing now.


Of those, the first two problems at least could have been overcome with a little more QA and development resources.

I hope Beamdog have leaned from this and will alocate sufficient resources to the new characters to make them rounded and plot-hole free.

1: Mh.. okay I give you that, but after thinking about it I realized that it was more of a problem with the
cutscene. I reality Clara would be dead before you could ever reach here, but for whatever reasons the
actions in cutscenes are ...turnbased.

2: I liked the dungeons I've seen so far (havn't played enhanced ToB yet, thanks to SoD x_x), what do you
mean with incomplete? They are tombs, not underground cities..

3: no clue about that, feel free to spoiler me. But never forget that things that make all your hard work
useless do in fact happen, but hindsight is 20/20 ^^

4: This is more personal preference.. Vampires are timeless and there are already a dozen or so in
Athkatla, so I can live with her


I liked her adition for what she is, though I dislike her "character", but I also dislike Dorn.
Why? Because he is truly evil.. and I utterly fail at being evil

Anyways, a writer does a good job if you like a character AND if you dislike a character..
It is indifference that marks a character as bad ;-)

(I think Neera and Rasaad a great btw, I would like them in IRL too )

Sorry for rambling, have a nice weekend ^_^

Fardragon

1. A good party wouldn't even take Clara to the tomb. They would take her to the high priest of Lathander, who would be able to break a vampiric geas.

2. The first tomb is buggy if you try to side with the monk guardians. The second is full of items that do nothing, and so on.

3. That's not the problem. Trying to avoid spoilers, but did you ever feel like you had hiked to Mount Doom without checking to see if the Ring would disolve in vinegar first?

Gallowglass

Fardragon said:

1. A good party wouldn't even take Clara to the tomb. They would take her to the high priest of Lathander, who would be able to break a vampiric geas.

Only if they knew what the problem was ... which they don't, until too late.

Fardragon said:

2. The first tomb is buggy if you try to side with the monk guardians. The second is full of items that do nothing, and so on.

Yes, it can be flaky in both of those places. Those "items that do nothing" do actually do something, but only whilst you're still in that tomb, and they're not necessary ... they provide an optional way of disabling certain traps and gaining an extra hidden item, but you can survive the traps anyway and the extra item is merely another copy of something pretty worthless.

Fardragon said:

3. That's not the problem. Trying to avoid spoilers, but did you ever feel like you had hiked to Mount Doom without checking to see if the Ring would disolve in vinegar first?

LOL! I've never thought of that analogy, but it's brilliant, and I hope you won't mind if I use it elsewhere.

Nonnahswriter

*tries to pick the thread up and put it back on its rails*

I don't think they should include romances in Siege of Dragonspear. The game is only 25 hours long and was created to be an expansion, not a full game. Any romances that take place would feel rushed and forced, and those are not feelings I want in a scenario where my character is supposed to be falling in love.

Schneidend

Fardragon said:

Brief summery of Hexxat problems:

1) railroaded plot. It's fine if the PC is evil, but if they are good they aren't even allowed to TRY and save Clara.

2) dungeons in her story arc feel rushed and incomplete. Gets worse as you go along.

3) resolution of her story arc (in ToB) is stupid, and makes Hexxat's motivation through the story nonsensical.

4) vampires are like dad trying to be trendy. They were very fashionable a couple of years ago, but zombies are the thing now.


Of those, the first two problems at least could have been overcome with a little more QA and development resources.

I hope Beamdog have leaned from this and will alocate sufficient resources to the new characters to make them rounded and plot-hole free.

Fardragon said:

1. A good party wouldn't even take Clara to the tomb. They would take her to the high priest of Lathander, who would be able to break a vampiric geas.

2. The first tomb is buggy if you try to side with the monk guardians. The second is full of items that do nothing, and so on.

1a) Clara's standing right next to Hexxat, as I recall, or close enough that a super-powered undead could run up and rip open her throat with ease once before you have a chance to do anything.
1b) A Good party probably shouldn't be talking to weird girls that want to rob tombs. A Good party probably shouldn't be working with Renal Bloodscalp to keep his organization of murderers and thieves intact for the mere pittance of gold and a magical item or in order to recruit Edwin, either. A true resurrection would also cure your romance of death and vampirism. Narrative effects like Hexxat's mind-control over Clara trump normal game mechanics.

2a) I've only done two of them so far, but they seemed quite good. Just as finely crafted as other dungeons with lots of scripts in BG2, like the Shadowlord's lair.
2b) I don't recall the monk guardian thing, but I'll check it out next time. BG in general is full of items that do nothing.

3) Can't really comment on that, but as I've stated before I'm very skeptical of what people around here consider "nonsensical."

4) So, has it occurred to you that she's a vampire because that's the character that was written, and not as an attempt to be trendy? She's hardly Edward Cullen-like.

Fardragon

1) a good party will try to aid anyone who seems to be in trouble, and what is wrong with Clara is blindingly obvious to anyone with an Int higher than 3. Perhaps if the writing had been more subtle, but it was about as subtle as Tarkin with a Death Star. And the thing is it would have been so easy to write an alternative path. Good writing in an RPG is about anticipating what the player is going to want to do, and allowing them to try it, even if it fails.

NightRevan

I would agree with others above that new romances with the SoD companions in a 25 hour expansion would likely feel rushed and wouldn't have the time to develop the possible narrative arcs to allow as Nonnahswriter said to feel like your PC was generally making a connection and falling in love, to feel the arc of a developing relationship. Particularly in this case a romantic one (which along with a few other types is quite indepth and intimate relationship to depict and show developing) which would something I would like to feel a geninue rp context for that relationship to develop.

While in theory you could start something, such as having a pre-romance romance, s6ch as conversations that have or develop romantic and flirtatious undertones in some paths of character interaction with your PC (assuming they meet the attractive criteria for hypothetical pre-romance npc) with a hint of something more possibly in the future (such as in the Isra mod for BG1). But the problem is as it stands none of the SoD companions will at present as far as we know be appearing in BG2:EE which means any romance or pre-romance relationship/development isn't going anywhere, and while if you had a full game to do something with that (thinking of the NPC Project mod and the Dynehair romance which I enjoyed with a touching final cut-scene relating to her and the PC's fate at the beginning of BG2 or say Isra) that might work here I'm just not sure you have the space.

The only possibilities really are the EE companions (extending and developing any romance arc from BG1:EE with any eye to how things will be when you meet them again in BG2:EE or perhaps with Viconia have some slight moments of flirtation and an undertone to a few comments and discussions. A suggestion she finds your PC attractive and a suggestion of interest which hints subtly of what might happen in the future (ie BG2) but nothing outright or definitive yet (since the aim would be to flow as seamlessly with BG2 as possible). Jaheira is still married happily and Aerie and Anomen your PC doesn't meet yet so anything there is largely out.

Anything else would just be flings of the moment such as romantic encounters mod(s) particularly their more extended encounters of that wolfwere woman in TOSC (sort off). You could do it (well probably without the detail in romantic encounters descriptions ) but I don't think it's what you're looking for.

So probably given it's an expansion between the two games there doesn't seem the space to do it justice and they would be going nowhere likely (so no point in even just having a pre-romance set up arc). Only really with the EE characters or possibly Viconia could you do anything. And I think they hinted they might be doing sonething there (at least with the EE companions of BG2), so there us that which I'm all fir and can see the point with.

What they could do is use this expansion to have a means of developing the PC's relationship with Imoen as their fister sister and deepen that dynamic and sense of depth so it will feel more fleshed out and a sense of hustory and reality to it so that going into BG2:EE and here kidnap you really feel the urgency of her abduction (or not depending how you rp your relationship).

Schneidend

Fardragon said:

1) a good party will try to aid anyone who seems to be in trouble, and what is wrong with Clara is blindingly obvious to anyone with an Int higher than 3. Perhaps if the writing had been more subtle, but it was about as subtle as Tarkin with a Death Star. And the thing is it would have been so easy to write an alternative path. Good writing in an RPG is about anticipating what the player is going to want to do, and allowing them to try it, even if it fails.

I disagree. If you're interested in helping her, and you're a badass good-gooder, taking her where she wants to go and attempting to stop the force that is so "blindingly obvious" in its control over here seems the more likely heroic path. While it might have been nice to write in speaking to a local priest, you could argue for an infinite number of alternate solutions for every questline in the entire franchise. Baldur's Gate is ultimately a video game and not a tabletop game, which means the number of possible solutions that can be accounted for is limited. Overhaul gave you the chance to try and put a stop to the force controlling Clara, but you ultimately do not succeed in the same way you fail to protect lots of people you might be seeking to help. The Skinner killer goes on to claim more victims regardless of what you do, for instance.

Nimran

Well, since none of the new NPCs are moving on to SoA (at least, not yet), then romances would be kinda weird. If I fell in love with someone, they got captured, and I could do something about it, then I would do whatever I could to rescue them. Likewise, if any of these NPCs were to fall in love with CHARNAME, they would (probably) pursue his/her captors and/or search for him/her, which would mean making an appearance in SoA, and that is not currently part of the plan. It is very likely that there won't be romances with these NPCs as a result.

As for what I want, I'm basically under the same banner as @Nonnahswriter, though IF the new NPCs somehow make their way into SoA, then romances likely would, and probably should, start in SoA (assuming that, if added, the new NPCs would then be romancible at all). There are a lot of ifs involved at this time, so I wouldn't hold my breath.

Schneidend

Still seems like some flings or cool friendship dialogues are more than within the realm of possibility, here. I'm actually kind of hoping Safana gets some romance/flirt/fling dialogues, more so than the SoD NPCs.

shawne

Schneidend said:

3) Can't really comment on that, but as I've stated before I'm very skeptical of what people around here consider "nonsensical."

"There's nothing I won't do to survive so I can die" is nonsensical by any standard.

kcwise

What? I'm just editing this so, carry on, nevermind.

Madrict

I hope Safana gets some flirty encounters. I always liked her. I am glad they seem to have fleshed her out a bit more in SoD

[Deleted User]

shawne said:

"There's nothing I won't do to survive so I can die" is nonsensical by any standard.

Only if you consider all deaths to be equal.

Schneidend

shawne said:

Schneidend said:

3) Can't really comment on that, but as I've stated before I'm very skeptical of what people around here consider "nonsensical."

"There's nothing I won't do to survive so I can die" is nonsensical by any standard.

Like I said, I can't really comment on it, as I haven't seen it. I'm just getting a new, post-patch BG2 run started today. But, it sounds like you're being reductive. Wanting to survive so you can die on your own terms makes perfect sense, especially as a tragic fantasy character's motivation. Is it not possible that's what she's after?

AWizardDidIt

Discussions of Hexxat's romance probably don't belong in this thread, especially since they might be considered spoilers for people who have yet to do it.

ber5nie5

i am only on my first time through in sod. about to finish up the final battle and then proceed to bg2ee. sounds like no new char's from bgee and sod currently in bg2ee, but there are plans to add some of them.

i had safana in my sod game and enjoyed the romantic interactions. would be nice to see her added to the bg2ee.