Should Imoens sudden transition from Thief to Mage be explained in SoD?

Genryu

Just curious on peoples thoughts.

In Baldur's Gate Imoen was my parties trusty thief! Then after importing my character into Baldur's Gate II, she had inexplicably become the parties mage! And I know I never dualled her...

I'd love it, if there was finally some explanation for her sudden change of class, maybe a side quest or small story arc that bridges her transition from a sneaky pickpocket to an eventual master of the arcane.

At the moment there are so many unanswered questions, what prompted her change in career? Was it in homage to the fallen Gorion? Did Dynaheir take Imoen under her wing, teaching her the basics of magic whilst they travelled the sword coast together? or was her growing arcane power simply a side effect of...

her growing Bhaalspawn taint?

Nobody really knows, though I would certainly like too!

Permidion_Stark

I'm not sure it is possible for the Devs to come up with a story that will work for me regarding Imoen. I hate the fact that she was made into a mage in BG2 and I can't see how they can change her back to a pure thief. Imoen got broken way back when BG2 was made and there ain't no way of fixing her now.

Still, Imoen the mage is better than no Imoen at all.

the_sextein

This is a tough question. Some people don't use her at all. Some dual class her before they get to the city of Baldur's Gate. Some use her the whole game and don't dual class her.

The best I can think of is a conversation with her at some point in SOD weather she is in your party or not and the conversation choices are different based on weather or not she was in your party or dualed or not.

Maybe she could mention that she is learning magic if you never had her in your party. If you had her in your party and didn't dual her maybe she could say something about how she had started learning magic while she was traveling with you but didn't mention it before. If you did dual her then she could simply mention that she likes her new class. This would allow things to make sense for everyone no matter how they play.

I would like to see some mention of it just to tie things up nice and neat but if it doesn't happen I won't really be disappointed either. They have a unique chance to make sense of all of the inconsistencies that Bioware created in BG2 but it shouldn't be done if it will interfere with beamdog's goal for their game.

I wouldn't mind a little conversation with members like Jahiera and Minsc where they talk about something they experienced or learned and then actually see their stats change from BG1 to BG2 during SOD if you have them in your party. It wouldn't take but a line of text and a switch attached to an area to explain the stat inconsistencies like that. They could even tie the stat bonuses to when you level up the character if they wanted to. With a small explanation in parentheses so we know where the stats changed and why. It would be cool and would not take much effort I wouldn't think but I am no game designer.

Aramintai

I don't mind if they come up with some story, but I'm not sure they can, cuz too many variables:
-you can dump her at the beginning of BG1 and she can go study somewhere on her own
-you can keep her and she can study with various spellcasters you have in your party, including the protagonist
-you can keep her, but she studies on her own cuz you don't have any spellcasters in your party

But these options won't work for those players who never dual-classed her into a mage in BG1, so there's another one:
-she dual-classes sometime between BG1 and BG2, may as well be during SoD
-she secretly always was a mage, studying alongside you with Gorion, she just didn't "come out of the closet", so to speak, until BG2
etc.

But not matter what option, some players will definetly be pissed off, cuz everyone has their own canon regarding the matter, can't please everyone. My canon, personally, is that she and the protagonist both had a mage background by studying with Gorion and other mages in Candlekeep, but she only started practicing it later by experiencing hardships on the road.

Hudzy

I suspect many will already have dual-classed her during BG1. I personally like the way it's handled in the BG1 NPC Project, with her developing interest in magic throughout the game.

NightRevan

Yes they might have to keep it somewhat loose and generalized if they did to try as best they can accommodate how different ways Imoen has developed under different playthroughs. Something that would work depending on whether she was taken along through BG1 or not and whether you had dual-classed her or not.

cmk24

Considering they can't change her class in BG2 for plot related reasons (and contractual one on top of that) I think they should add in an explanation for the dual class in SoD that everyone has to play through regardless of what they did with her in BG1.

Genryu

I can appreciate that with her stats, she is perfectly suited to dual classing. But I personally have a preference for pure thieves, and so I usually end up editing her back to a Thief with Shadowkeeper.

Still it would be nice to have some official banter/questline that touches upon her transition.

Hudzy said:

I suspect many will already have dual-classed her during BG1. I personally like the way it's handled in the BG1 NPC Project, with her developing interest in magic throughout the game.

That would be perfect, and the exact sort of thing I would love to see implemented, just to make it apparent that she has at least some interest in pursing magic, and explanation for the sudden career change in BG2.

cmk24 said:

Considering they can't change her class in BG2 for plot related reasons (and contractual one on top of that) I think they should add in an explanation for the dual class in SoD that everyone has to play through regardless of what they did with her in BG1.

Haha I feel a complete moron now. I initially thought to my self would keeping her as a thief create any significant continuity issues in BG2, and all I could think off was her epilogue at the end.

Somehow I had totally overlooked the huge massive plot detail of....

her unlawful use of magic and subsequent imprisonment by the cowled wizards.... How the hell did I forget this, hunting her down is half the games bloody story haha!

Yeah, keeping her as a thief throughout BG2 seems a little redundant and silly now in terms of continuity.

billbisco

SoD does not have to explain anything. You can play with Imoen however you like and you will import to BG2 and find out that you played Imoen wrong and that you should have Dual Classed her to Mage. Thetr is no ingame necessity to ensure Imoen becomes a Mage ingame.

Unfortunately Beamdog has most likely taken the approach that Imoen being a mage in BG2 is a problem. Imoen is most likely unavailable until at least Chapter 3 via the screenahots and information given already. So the OP already has what he asked for.

Koliva

The deeper issue is that BG2 made certain choices canon. Imoen isn't the only one:
* The PC didn't side with Edwin and kill Dynaheir.
* Viconia was saved.
* Regardless of his alignment, the PC supposedly spent most of his time with Imoen, Minsc, Dynaheir, Khalid and Jaheira.

Mikey205

I would prefer not I think it was handled well enough in NPC Project.

Fardragon

"Explaining everything" seems to be Beamdog's primary objective in SoD.

Genryu

Mikey205 said:

I would prefer not I think it was handled well enough in NPC Project.

Is this NPC project compatible with EE? I'd never heard of it before today, and it has piqued my interest.

NightRevan

Genryu said:

Mikey205 said:

I would prefer not I think it was handled well enough in NPC Project.

Is this NPC project compatible with EE? I'd never heard of it before today, and it has piqued my interest.

Indeed it has been, I had put off purchasing BG1:EE untill the mod became compatible. Once I began playing BG1 with it there just wasn't any playing of it without it as the companions and party feel so empty (you can even initiate conversation, which though a small feature just,adds a nice layer of reactivity which is something even BG2 companions don't have, always hoped someone would do something similar for BG2 companions but alas not yet outside romance flirt packs and some mod companions).

http://www.gibberlings3.net/bg1npc/ you can get it here.

Genryu

Thanks. I'm in the middle of an IWD2 run at the moment, but I might come back and give it a try once I'm finished.

kaguana

Genryu said:

Mikey205 said:

I would prefer not I think it was handled well enough in NPC Project.

Is this NPC project compatible with EE? I'd never heard of it before today, and it has piqued my interest.

Yes it does BG1NPC

OzzyBotkins

I always wondered what was the story line reason for Imoen dueling from thief in BG1 to Mage in BG2.
My was guess was that she found being a thief a lot more dsngerous out in the wild then behind the safe walls of Candlekeep.
Imoen became close friends with Dynaheir who started teaching her magic
I am very interested in seeing how Imoen magic stroy develops in SoD

Illustair

Option 3 is not a viable option I think. Imoen has to be dualled to a mage in BG2 plotwise - that's non-negotiable. It's either they explain the transition in SoD compulsorily, or they don't at all and just leave the same to our imagination. I'd prefer the former. I'm sure we can let our "personal canon" yield to an official one provided that it's presented well. I bet we'd forget our "personal canon" almost immediately thereafter.

recklessheart

I don't know how I feel about this. It is what it is, and that never bothered me too much. One cannot really justify her Magecraft as the consequence of her taint: that would imply she is a Sorcerer. A Mage actively studies for her powers. I don't agree that Imoen was 'broken', as I read someone else say. Her magic becomes fairly integral to the initial plot hook for Shadows of Amn, which is one of the best games ever!

Aramintai

recklessheart said:

One cannot really justify her Magecraft as the consequence of her taint: that would imply she is a Sorcerer.

I always thought that kind of head canon to be silly, in ToB she talks with the protagonist about her developing actual Bhaal powers, like healing etc. She states that they are different from her magic and only started manifesting recently. Which means she can tell the difference between Bhaal tainted and her usual magic abilities, which in turn means that her magic talent has nothing to do with her taint.

Grammarsalad

Imoen is going to get a new tutor. His name is going to be Sucineri.

Avenger_teambg

Grammarsalad said:

Imoen is going to get a new tutor. His name is going to be Sucineri.

@AndrewFoley will be angry to see this leaked

Arcanis

@Avenger_teambg
Wait a moment.. you are a dev and you voted no..
So, I won't be explained? O_O

shawne

Does it need an explanation? She picked up a few tricks from Dynaheir, the end.

Doubledimas

Arcanis said:

@Avenger_teambg
Wait a moment.. you are a dev and you voted no..
So, I won't be explained? O_O

Doesn't necessarily means that it won't be in the game. His vote is just his personal opinion (I assume).

Fardragon

Wind-up merchant.

Arcanis

shawne said:

Does it need an explanation? She picked up a few tricks from Dynaheir, the end.

It doesn't *need* to be explained or even adressed.. it is just that I always saw SoD as the game that
explains how the status quo of BG-end turnd into the one of SoA-beginning and that IS part of it.
(The RL reason is, iirc, that Bioware had a poll that showed them that most ppl dualed Imoen and it
gave an easy explanation to sent her to Spellhold)

billbisco

Imoen can just be using a scroll. She does not need to be a Mage. I've already expressed my opinion that forcing a change in SoD is unnecessary and counter-fun.

elminster

billbisco said:

Imoen can just be using a scroll. She does not need to be a Mage.

Thieves can't use mage scrolls unless they have Use Any Item.

But even beyond the whole single spell cast of magic missile (which maybe could be explained with a wand) she's got to be a mage in BG2EE without rewriting (which isn't going to happen). Her epilogue mentions her "formidable skill in magic" and she's got at least one dialogue with Nalia in Throne of Bhaal (and probably more in the game) that references her skills as a mage.

As far as what, if anything, is up with Imoen in SoD you'll have to wait and see

billbisco

@elminster Thieves can use scrolls in 2E and I have no issue with Imoen using one even though she's below the 2e threshold. You're right that a wand of magic missiles also works. Imoen also exits Chateau Irenicus and casts Magic Missile even though my Imoen never has that memorized! So a secret wand of magic missiles that dhe shows me is very likely.

Again, BG2EE invalidates our choices. We traveled with a party that we probably didn't finish BGEE with. NPCs are alive that should be dead and so forth.

SoD can allude to an interest in magic, but it is far from necessary for SoD to force Imoen as a Dual classed Mage via the above.

Genryu

shawne said:

Does it need an explanation? She picked up a few tricks from Dynaheir, the end.

Which is still an explaination!

If it does happen then great, and if it doesn't then no biggie, it wont detract anything from the already awesome games. Still for me personally, I'd love to discover the catalyst that set her off on her journey to magedom.