The whole thing seems like it would be rough to implement. At the end of the day, I think we all would like to see what drove her to become a mage, but that's a tough sell if you dualed her to a mage at level 2, right?
So it'll be interesting. Whatever story they come up with would have to make sense for a multitude of scenarios, which include Imoen remaining a thief, Imoen dualing to a mage, and Imoen not even being in your party anymore.
@elminster Thieves can use scrolls in 2E and I have no issue with Imoen using one even though she's below the 2e threshold. You're right that a wand of magic missiles also works. Imoen also exits Chateau Irenicus and casts Magic Missile even though my Imoen never has that memorized! So a secret wand of magic missiles that dhe shows me is very likely.
Again, BG2EE invalidates our choices. We traveled with a party that we probably didn't finish BGEE with. NPCs are alive that should be dead and so forth.
SoD can allude to an interest in magic, but it is far from necessary for SoD to force Imoen as a Dual classed Mage via the above.
The whole thing seems like it would be rough to implement. At the end of the day, I think we all would like to see what drove her to become a mage, but that's a tough sell if you dualed her to a mage at level 2, right?
So it'll be interesting. Whatever story they come up with would have to make sense for a multitude of scenarios, which include Imoen remaining a thief, Imoen dualing to a mage, and Imoen not even being in your party anymore.
I think it could be done, maybe via a scripted dialogue, or random encounter style event that would only trigger if Imoen had not already been dual classed by the player.
And if she had already been dual classed then maybe have a scripted dialogue pop up the next time the party rests, where the player and imoen talk about her recent interest in the art. There are so many possibilities!
@Avenger_teambg Wait a moment.. you are a dev and you voted no.. So, I won't be explained? O_O
I just picked one randomly (i always do).
Are you Chaotic Neutral by any chance?
...Unless he EEKeepered himself, I think he has to be TN, since he is a druid (with avenger kit). Maybe that is the chaos to balance the lawfulness of his work?
I think it would be very interesting to add a bit of her story to the main plot. Whether it's explained or not, I find it easy to understand Imoen becoming a mage. She was brought up in one of the biggest libraries of the sword coast, and was very close to powerfull spellcasters like Firebead Elvenhair or Gorion himself. Also she is of curious nature, so you would expect her do be reading into all the tomes that she could get her hands on from Candlekeep, Baldurs Gate or the protagonists backpack.
In SoD, even if it were through few dialogues, it would be pretty easy to hint that she is learning magic or has got a great interest towards it, even if the game itself doesn't go deeply into the process.
Easy way to explain any discrepency in a pinch: you wake up in Irenicus' dungeon with your head messed up and what you think you remember from your past is pretty iffy. We don't remember dual-classing Imoen, but Minsc is not the only one who's had too many head injuries...
What I'd like for Beamdog to do is to simply import characters from BG:EE/SoD as they were leveled. Including Imoen.
Seemingly the only reason why Imoen was made a Mage in BG2 in the first place is so that she can cast a spell in Promenade, get captured with Irenicus, and therefore become a plot point at Spellhold.
So the only "requirement" here is that she casts a spell at Promenade. This can be solved in ways that don't infringe upon player's choices about her as a character.
For example, Irenicus could stealthily cast Spell Turning on her(perhaps before the Cloaked Wizards even arrive?), and then a Magic Missile. This would cause the MM to bounce back to Irenicus, looking as if she cast the spell herself. Enough to get her captured and she doesn't need to be a Mage anymore.
Or she could use a magical item instead(i.e. a non-removeable Wand of Magic missiles she would start the BG2 with; as a nod to BG). Normally she casts a Magic Missle, but it still makes no sense if she does not have it memorized. Wand of Magic Missile this takes care of that and she doesn't need to be a Mage anymore; win-win.
Even more shenanigans could be explained with her mysterious, non-removeable belt. While it's simply a way for the game engine to make her invincible in the Irenicus Dungeon, maybe the Shattered One put some kind of contingency into it, just in case? A contingency that could be used to make it look like Imoen can cast spells? He's a pretty smart guy, after all.
This way, Imoen stops "having" to be a Mage, and can be simply imported from BG(or SoD) at whatever state the player left her, and the necessity to explain her dual-class simply stops existing.
@blackchimes Imoen was turned into a mage since a survey told Bioware that it was a pretty popular choice. Also, she HAS to be a mage, not for spellhold but for her banters. In the banters (and the epilogue) she is recognised as a mage, thus she has to be one or they wouldn't make any sense - unless you want to completly rewrite her character ofc.
@Francois Well, iirc you can say that you can't remember a thing and are confused, which most ppl blame on Irenicus' hospitality..
What I'd like for Beamdog to do is to simply import characters from BG:EE/SoD as they were leveled. Including Imoen.
Seemingly the only reason why Imoen was made a Mage in BG2 in the first place is so that she can cast a spell in Promenade, get captured with Irenicus, and therefore become a plot point at Spellhold.
So the only "requirement" here is that she casts a spell at Promenade. This can be solved in ways that don't infringe upon player's choices about her as a character.
For example, Irenicus could stealthily cast Spell Turning on her(perhaps before the Cloaked Wizards even arrive?), and then a Magic Missile. This would cause the MM to bounce back to Irenicus, looking as if she cast the spell herself. Enough to get her captured and she doesn't need to be a Mage anymore.
Or she could use a magical item instead(i.e. a non-removeable Wand of Magic missiles she would start the BG2 with; as a nod to BG). Normally she casts a Magic Missle, but it still makes no sense if she does not have it memorized. Wand of Magic Missile this takes care of that and she doesn't need to be a Mage anymore; win-win.
Even more shenanigans could be explained with her mysterious, non-removeable belt. While it's simply a way for the game engine to make her invincible in the Irenicus Dungeon, maybe the Shattered One put some kind of contingency into it, just in case? A contingency that could be used to make it look like Imoen can cast spells? He's a pretty smart guy, after all.
This way, Imoen stops "having" to be a Mage, and can be simply imported from BG(or SoD) at whatever state the player left her, and the necessity to explain her dual-class simply stops existing.
I really don't mean any offense by this, I promise, but every one of those explanations seems rather convoluted when compared to, "Imoen decided to learn magic at some point."
As I have pointed out before, for better or worse, BG2 makes some things Canon that might not line up with how you played in BG1. Imoen at some point became a mage. Her banters and epilogue in SOA and TOB reflect this, and Beamdog couldn't even rewrite those if they wanted to.
Have you listened to the Chris Avallone interview yet? He says one of the things he likes about SoD are the training montages that explain how some characters have changed class between BG1 and BG2. Given that Imoen is the only character who changes class, I would say it pretty much confirms that Imoen's change from thief to mage will be dealt with in SoD.
I think it's fairly obvious why she became a mage. She's BRILLIANT and she grew up in the realms greatest library surrounded by scholars and mages! What would be interesting to me, is to learn why she ever decided to be a thief!
What would be interesting to me, is to learn why she ever decided to be a thief!
She probably couldn't help it, secretly being a kleptomaniac
...Secretly? I think she is pretty open with that =P But since she is so endearing and cute everyone forgives her quickly and thus she never saw harm in it.. but when she left candlekeep and realized that many people hate you after you steal from them and are NOT pacified with just a smile she learned that *maybe* she should use her other talents to be helpful =P
realized that many people hate you after you steal from them and are NOT pacified with just a smile she learned that *maybe* she should use her other talents to be helpful =P
Or maybe she thought that pacifying (and stealing from) them would be easier with a Charm Person spell, lol.
I always thought that Imoen being a mage was the result of the experiments that Irenicus did on her. Rooting around in her brain, forcing her to experience horrible things to awaken her hidden power. The magic was the power she got out of it rather than the Bhaalspawn power Irenicus wanted out of her.
How would I not like to see an extra content? How would I not like to get another detail about my most favourite game clear? How would I not enjoy a dialogue, a quest or maybe even a chain of events?
OF COURSE, I don't mind an explanation of how this little sister of mine stopped setting general traps in order to get a skull trap!
How would I not like to see an extra content? How would I not like to get another detail about my most favourite game clear? How would I not enjoy a dialogue, a quest or maybe even a chain of events?
OF COURSE, I don't mind an explanation of how this little sister of mine stopped setting general traps in order to get a skull trap!
She wasn't meant to become a mage or more exactly she wasn't presented as a mage at the start of the second adventure. The less they say/write, the better. IMHO. Let's people make imaginative assumptions. It's a game, not a theory in science. Not all people dual-class Imoen at level 7 for continuity reasons just because it makes sense.
How would I not like to see an extra content? How would I not like to get another detail about my most favourite game clear? How would I not enjoy a dialogue, a quest or maybe even a chain of events?
OF COURSE, I don't mind an explanation of how this little sister of mine stopped setting general traps in order to get a skull trap!
She wasn't meant to become a mage or more exactly she wasn't presented as a mage at the start of the second adventure. The less they say/write, the better. IMHO. Let's people make imaginative assumptions. It's a game, not a theory in science. Not all people dual-class Imoen at level 7 for continuity reasons just because it makes sense.
She doesn't have much to say about her class in the beginning of SoA, true. BUT, she casts magic in the second cutscene of the game (the first being Irenicus "research" scene) and is arrested on the grounds of illegally using magic.
It is also extremly unlikely that she used a wand in that scene (because the cowled ones call it magic and she has more than 1 magic missile) and then learned magic in spellhold. I'm pretty sure you can't learn magic in between "research" and being locked up in cells that are most probably warded against magic.
But she has to be a mage after that since her being a mage is acknowledged in banters.
Long story short: She *has* to be dualed somewhere and (story-wise) SoD makes most sense. Why? Because she is an experienced thief that studied magic. That means she has to become a decent thief first - which would take most of the BG story - and could either become a mage around the BG-city segment, which is (again, only story-wise) one of the most hectic stages in BG. Investegation of Doppelgangers & Iron Throne (rather quickly), Back to Candlekeep (short visit) being framed & hunting Sarevok (not much time to sit down and learn spells). After Sarevok is defeated they have some time to calm down (I assume there is a couple of weeks between BG and SoD ^^) and start magic studies.
@Arcanis No need to tell me how BG2 starts. Clearly your description is correct. However I am referring to something older. Even in the BG2 print advertising she wasn't presented as a mage (yet).
Do you always dual class her when you play BG1 ? If your answer is no then I think you'll understand my general point.
@Musigny I dual her (at different levels) most of the time, but not always, mostly because I find getting another thief annoying. ^^
But I *still* think SoD is a great chance for a storyline to explain how she became a mage. And I want to have it compulsary, mostly because I prefer a good storyline over free development of characters. In fact, I think giving freedom to develop the characters as you please can weaken them story-wise. It is the same thing which brought me away from wRPGs in general.. I don't care about modifing the character as much as possible (stat wise) nor do I like to explore the landscape without a good reason. My *singulary* interest is the story. The only choice I personally care about is choice within the story. (Like different romance arcs, multiple endings, different alliances etc.) So, in short, if I'm given the choice between freedom of (game mechanical) development or a good story, I prefer the story.
Sorry for rambling, but this is the reason why BG2 is among my favorite games and I was sad watching the development of the RPG-genre. Instead of following up on BG2 strength (the characters) most games seem to concentrate on exploration & ..stats.
@Arcanis Perhaps you like stories with roguish and hanging mages throwing daggers instead of casting spells. Too many details may kill the already weak consistency pertaining to Imoen.
So, in short, if I'm given the choice between freedom of (game mechanical) development or a good story, I prefer the story.
That's your own bias. There is no reason for opposing these two aspects. Unless you already see SoD as inferior to BG1 and BG2 which were successful from both perspectives.
@Musigny Yep, my own personal opinion. ^^ ..though i have no idea what you mean with the first paragraph...
Actually, I have high hopes of SoD, but unless I can see it for myself I will refrain from judging it Btw, I'm not really a big fan of BG1. BGEE vastly improved the game imho, but it still isn't one of my *personal* favorites. BG2 is the great game for me. ^^ Aaanyways, I don't *care* about the freedom in BG2. It gave me a decent story, with good characters and good banter. Thats what I want, I stopped playing it when I new (nearly) every line by heart. In two languages. If SoD can catch my attention that long, then I'll say it is a great game (for me). My point was, that mechanical freedom should *never* stand in the way of story and that many games have the trend that they sacrifice story potential for more freedom. Thus I'm a tad sensitive when it comes to arguments that are built around such freedom
But never forget: This is just my opinion, the opinion of an absolut minority (according to ratings and sale figures), but I like to discuss (or ramble ;-) )
@Musigny That isn't her, wrong hair-color =P But seriously, nice artwork, never saw that before, thanks. ^^ The Box-cover of the american version?
But.. i'm not defending the promotion (just don't want changes *now*) after all, in germany we had a major video game magazine that claimed that Imoen would be a romance option
Yes, because I would've preferred if she had stayed a thief entirely. Not everyone is a powergamer, and having her as a mage in bg2 just seemed like a cop out for getting her alone with Irenicus long enough to steal her soul. Did we really need another thief/mage in bg2? And yet we have only one pure mage (who is fucking annoying) in bg2 and too freaking many dual class mages.
Wait, OK so I do have to count Neera, so two puremages, even though I usually look at her more along the lines of a Sorcerer.
Comments
So it'll be interesting. Whatever story they come up with would have to make sense for a multitude of scenarios, which include Imoen remaining a thief, Imoen dualing to a mage, and Imoen not even being in your party anymore.
And if she had already been dual classed then maybe have a scripted dialogue pop up the next time the party rests, where the player and imoen talk about her recent interest in the art. There are so many possibilities!
Maybe that is the chaos to balance the lawfulness of his work?
In SoD, even if it were through few dialogues, it would be pretty easy to hint that she is learning magic or has got a great interest towards it, even if the game itself doesn't go deeply into the process.
Seemingly the only reason why Imoen was made a Mage in BG2 in the first place is so that she can cast a spell in Promenade, get captured with Irenicus, and therefore become a plot point at Spellhold.
So the only "requirement" here is that she casts a spell at Promenade. This can be solved in ways that don't infringe upon player's choices about her as a character.
For example, Irenicus could stealthily cast Spell Turning on her(perhaps before the Cloaked Wizards even arrive?), and then a Magic Missile. This would cause the MM to bounce back to Irenicus, looking as if she cast the spell herself. Enough to get her captured and she doesn't need to be a Mage anymore.
Or she could use a magical item instead(i.e. a non-removeable Wand of Magic missiles she would start the BG2 with; as a nod to BG). Normally she casts a Magic Missle, but it still makes no sense if she does not have it memorized. Wand of Magic Missile this takes care of that and she doesn't need to be a Mage anymore; win-win.
Even more shenanigans could be explained with her mysterious, non-removeable belt. While it's simply a way for the game engine to make her invincible in the Irenicus Dungeon, maybe the Shattered One put some kind of contingency into it, just in case? A contingency that could be used to make it look like Imoen can cast spells? He's a pretty smart guy, after all.
This way, Imoen stops "having" to be a Mage, and can be simply imported from BG(or SoD) at whatever state the player left her, and the necessity to explain her dual-class simply stops existing.
Imoen was turned into a mage since a survey told Bioware that it was a pretty popular choice.
Also, she HAS to be a mage, not for spellhold but for her banters.
In the banters (and the epilogue) she is recognised as a mage, thus she has to be one or they wouldn't make
any sense - unless you want to completly rewrite her character ofc.
@Francois
Well, iirc you can say that you can't remember a thing and are confused, which most ppl blame on Irenicus'
hospitality..
As I have pointed out before, for better or worse, BG2 makes some things Canon that might not line up with how you played in BG1. Imoen at some point became a mage. Her banters and epilogue in SOA and TOB reflect this, and Beamdog couldn't even rewrite those if they wanted to.
But since she is so endearing and cute everyone forgives her quickly and thus she never saw harm in it..
but when she left candlekeep and realized that many people hate you after you steal from them and are
NOT pacified with just a smile she learned that *maybe* she should use her other talents to be helpful =P
OF COURSE, I don't mind an explanation of how this little sister of mine stopped setting general traps in order to get a skull trap!
The less they say/write, the better. IMHO. Let's people make imaginative assumptions.
It's a game, not a theory in science. Not all people dual-class Imoen at level 7 for continuity reasons just because it makes sense.
BUT, she casts magic in the second cutscene of the game (the first being Irenicus "research" scene)
and is arrested on the grounds of illegally using magic.
It is also extremly unlikely that she used a wand in that scene (because the cowled ones call it magic and
she has more than 1 magic missile) and then learned magic in spellhold.
I'm pretty sure you can't learn magic in between "research" and being locked up in cells that are most
probably warded against magic.
But she has to be a mage after that since her being a mage is acknowledged in banters.
Long story short: She *has* to be dualed somewhere and (story-wise) SoD makes most sense.
Why? Because she is an experienced thief that studied magic. That means she has to become a
decent thief first - which would take most of the BG story - and could either become a mage
around the BG-city segment, which is (again, only story-wise) one of the most hectic stages in BG.
Investegation of Doppelgangers & Iron Throne (rather quickly), Back to Candlekeep (short visit)
being framed & hunting Sarevok (not much time to sit down and learn spells).
After Sarevok is defeated they have some time to calm down (I assume there is a couple of weeks
between BG and SoD ^^) and start magic studies.
No need to tell me how BG2 starts. Clearly your description is correct. However I am referring to something older. Even in the BG2 print advertising she wasn't presented as a mage (yet).
Do you always dual class her when you play BG1 ?
If your answer is no then I think you'll understand my general point.
I dual her (at different levels) most of the time, but not always, mostly because I find getting
another thief annoying. ^^
But I *still* think SoD is a great chance for a storyline to explain how she became a mage.
And I want to have it compulsary, mostly because I prefer a good storyline over free development
of characters. In fact, I think giving freedom to develop the characters as you please can weaken them
story-wise.
It is the same thing which brought me away from wRPGs in general.. I don't care about modifing the
character as much as possible (stat wise) nor do I like to explore the landscape without a good reason.
My *singulary* interest is the story. The only choice I personally care about is choice within the story.
(Like different romance arcs, multiple endings, different alliances etc.)
So, in short, if I'm given the choice between freedom of (game mechanical) development or a good
story, I prefer the story.
Sorry for rambling, but this is the reason why BG2 is among my favorite games and I was sad watching
the development of the RPG-genre. Instead of following up on BG2 strength (the characters) most
games seem to concentrate on exploration & ..stats.
Perhaps you like stories with roguish and hanging mages throwing daggers instead of casting spells.
Too many details may kill the already weak consistency pertaining to Imoen. That's your own bias. There is no reason for opposing these two aspects. Unless you already see SoD as inferior to BG1 and BG2 which were successful from both perspectives. I fully agree with you and that will be my primary evaluation criteria for SoD.
Yep, my own personal opinion. ^^
..though i have no idea what you mean with the first paragraph...
Actually, I have high hopes of SoD, but unless I can see it for myself I will refrain from
judging it
Btw, I'm not really a big fan of BG1. BGEE vastly improved the game imho, but it still isn't one of
my *personal* favorites. BG2 is the great game for me. ^^
Aaanyways, I don't *care* about the freedom in BG2. It gave me a decent story, with good characters and
good banter. Thats what I want, I stopped playing it when I new (nearly) every line by heart. In two
languages.
If SoD can catch my attention that long, then I'll say it is a great game (for me).
My point was, that mechanical freedom should *never* stand in the way of story and that many
games have the trend that they sacrifice story potential for more freedom.
Thus I'm a tad sensitive when it comes to arguments that are built around such freedom
But never forget: This is just my opinion, the opinion of an absolut minority (according to ratings and
sale figures), but I like to discuss (or ramble ;-) )
That isn't her, wrong hair-color =P
But seriously, nice artwork, never saw that before, thanks. ^^
The Box-cover of the american version?
But.. i'm not defending the promotion (just don't want changes *now*) after all, in germany
we had a major video game magazine that claimed that Imoen would be a romance option
Imoen retains the abilities of a 7th level thief, as well as a mage, which is more than enough to hang from ropes, throw daggers, and use hair dye.
Wait, OK so I do have to count Neera, so two puremages, even though I usually look at her more along the lines of a Sorcerer.