Help me build a Spellsword!
GammaPhase
Member Posts: 27
Hello again!
So I've been browsing threads here and there. There are so many options here, it's hard for a newbie to (even after extensive reading) to come to a solid consensus. I've read up on dual-classing, multi-classing, and the various classes and kits.
I need experienced hands to temper what I have in mind into a solid build. It's my first play through, and I really don't want to begin an endless series of trying out a bunch of different characters.
What I want:
PC who is highly dangerous with a blade and magic. I want to be able to engage my enemies toe to toe, without flinching, or lay down the win with some high-powered magic. I'd love to be able to soften up a room of monsters with spells, then walk in and own with some serious slicing. Bonus if I can use magic to increase my combat effectiveness.
Bottom line is when I run out of magic, or don't have the magic options I need for the situation, or just want to save my spells for later, I want to be able to walk in and own.
How I'll be playing:
I will be using a party, possibly a full one. I've read so much praise for the story and the NPC's personalities, there's no way I'm going to run through this solo. The option to romance was a big selling point for me, and it looks like certain races won't be able to do that.
What I've considered:
I don't believe in showing up and expecting everyone to do the work for me, so this is on the drawing board.
Bard (Blade Kit)
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Appeal: Looks interesting, the spinning abilities seem impressive. He's got a lot of style and flair to him. Very much seems a jack-of-all.
Concerns: Not as effective in melee without spinning, and magic. Spell selection seems narrow, as well as armor.
Druid (Perhaps Avenger?)
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Appeal: Large selection of spells here. Some real showstoppers, it seems. Changing form into creatures is nifty.
Concerns: Again not so great at melee without magic? Armor and weapon selection is too narrow?
Cleric (Don't know which kit)
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Appeal: Fully armored, spells galore, and looks like a decent combatant. Healing is good. This is a strong contender.
Concerns: I'm not sure how it will perform toe to toe without magic. Can't use blades, but you know, bashing something is just as fun.
Ranger (No kit?)
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Appeal: Fully armored if I want, some spell use. Ranged as well as melee. Sneaky too.
Concerns: Doesn't completely fit my concept, as the spells are limited.
Fighter/Mage
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Appeal: This seems to be a spellsword, straight out of the box! He's got it all, lots of spells, and combat ready.
Concerns: I'm going to be in a party, maybe full. Might fall behind in levels and be second banana?
Fighter -> Mage
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Appeal: Same deal. Spellsword.
Concerns: Dualling. You stop getting better as a fighter, so you become more of a wizard who can fight than a true spellsword.
Mage -> Fighter
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Appeal: You continue getting martial prowess through your career.
Concerns: This is lopsided the other way. A warrior who can use some magic, but only some.
So folks, if you have a minutes, weigh in with your opinions please. Do you like an option I've presented, and why, or why not? Is there something even better I haven't considered, to get closer to my concept?
Thanks!
So I've been browsing threads here and there. There are so many options here, it's hard for a newbie to (even after extensive reading) to come to a solid consensus. I've read up on dual-classing, multi-classing, and the various classes and kits.
I need experienced hands to temper what I have in mind into a solid build. It's my first play through, and I really don't want to begin an endless series of trying out a bunch of different characters.
What I want:
PC who is highly dangerous with a blade and magic. I want to be able to engage my enemies toe to toe, without flinching, or lay down the win with some high-powered magic. I'd love to be able to soften up a room of monsters with spells, then walk in and own with some serious slicing. Bonus if I can use magic to increase my combat effectiveness.
Bottom line is when I run out of magic, or don't have the magic options I need for the situation, or just want to save my spells for later, I want to be able to walk in and own.
How I'll be playing:
I will be using a party, possibly a full one. I've read so much praise for the story and the NPC's personalities, there's no way I'm going to run through this solo. The option to romance was a big selling point for me, and it looks like certain races won't be able to do that.
What I've considered:
I don't believe in showing up and expecting everyone to do the work for me, so this is on the drawing board.
Bard (Blade Kit)
-------------
Appeal: Looks interesting, the spinning abilities seem impressive. He's got a lot of style and flair to him. Very much seems a jack-of-all.
Concerns: Not as effective in melee without spinning, and magic. Spell selection seems narrow, as well as armor.
Druid (Perhaps Avenger?)
---------------------
Appeal: Large selection of spells here. Some real showstoppers, it seems. Changing form into creatures is nifty.
Concerns: Again not so great at melee without magic? Armor and weapon selection is too narrow?
Cleric (Don't know which kit)
-----------------------
Appeal: Fully armored, spells galore, and looks like a decent combatant. Healing is good. This is a strong contender.
Concerns: I'm not sure how it will perform toe to toe without magic. Can't use blades, but you know, bashing something is just as fun.
Ranger (No kit?)
-------------
Appeal: Fully armored if I want, some spell use. Ranged as well as melee. Sneaky too.
Concerns: Doesn't completely fit my concept, as the spells are limited.
Fighter/Mage
-----------
Appeal: This seems to be a spellsword, straight out of the box! He's got it all, lots of spells, and combat ready.
Concerns: I'm going to be in a party, maybe full. Might fall behind in levels and be second banana?
Fighter -> Mage
--------------
Appeal: Same deal. Spellsword.
Concerns: Dualling. You stop getting better as a fighter, so you become more of a wizard who can fight than a true spellsword.
Mage -> Fighter
--------------
Appeal: You continue getting martial prowess through your career.
Concerns: This is lopsided the other way. A warrior who can use some magic, but only some.
So folks, if you have a minutes, weigh in with your opinions please. Do you like an option I've presented, and why, or why not? Is there something even better I haven't considered, to get closer to my concept?
Thanks!
3
Comments
He uses Thief Exp table which is the one that levels up the fastest. Thus his spells will be more powerful than a same exp mage since most of them are based on the caster level. Mostly useful for remove/dispel magic for example.
As a high level ability he may get Use any item which enable him to use Scarlet Ninja to, the only +1 APR with a +3 enchantment and Gauntlet of extreme specialiazation which give even more APR.
You can get very early in the game a bard only chainmail which gives you AC 2 and does not prevent you from casting spells
Blade is overall a pleasure to play and a very strong pick that matches your criteria perfectly
Avenger is basically a caster, not a melee at all. It is just like a mage, with divine spells. You will find that though Shapechange is fun, it becomes useless fairly early in the game.
As a Cleric, surely if you want to play melee go for Priest of Lathander, the extra APR from Lathander's boon is all that you need to be a melee beast with all your strength buffs. You can be an insane tank as well
Ranger is decent as a melee, but so many classes are better than him that I would not pick him. His spellcasting is not very good. Stalker can be decent though, with his backstab to quickly kill an enemy and then deal with the rest of them.
Mage -> Fighter: you may forget that one, no interest at all.
Fighter -> Mage is quite insane since you can get Grandmastery, not to mention that warrior level past the 13th bring very little compared to mage level. Plus you can get a kit. Berzerker is my favourite, but Kensai is good as well and fits well your roleplay concerns. I can assure you that a Fighter-> mage is a melee beast, not just a mage that can fight.
Fighter/Mage seems less interesting than Fighter -> mage in my opinion since fighter high level abilities are not so interesting for a F/M, but it is a good pick as well.
You might as well want to consider a fighter -> Cleric which is very strong as well, or even a Fighter/cleric, which is a little less offensive than the former, but a lot stronger defensively thanks to hardiness. Both are very good picks and will fit your criteria.
Kensai > Mage
Berserker > Mage
Fighter / Mage
Bard
Fighter > Cleric, Fighter / Cleric
I'm not sure how to narrow it down further. It looks like there are quite a few threads, here and elsewhere, discussing the merits of these (including VS threads, matching them up). I'll see what I can dig up!
@GammaPhase: Fighter/Mage is commonly considered the single most powerful class combination in the game... if you have spells ready. Since you don't seem keen on abusing the rest system(cheers), your next best pick is probably Fighter/Cleric multiclass. Either Half-Orc or Dwarf will make a beastly F/C.
Forget about dualing, it's hard to do, makes half of your game a chore, and isn't even the best option anymore after ToB introduced HLAs.
A Fighter/Mage would be the most powerful option, though the other classes are quite fun as well.
Definitely with IH you can get more than 5.
By the way, I consider Cavalier and Blackguard to be just as strong as a F/M because of how tanky and unkillable they may become while still having a very good offensive potential. But that's my personal opinion
@Gammaphase both your first choices are better than multiclass Fighter/mage, in my humble opinion, but dual-classing may prove to be a problem for a first-timer. Among these two, Berzerker/mage is definitely more beginner friendly.
Fighter/Cleric is nice because it is powerful from the beginning of the game and very beginner-friendly, you won't have that downtime. You will get as many Cleric spells as you possibly can in the end as well.
Fighter -> Cleric is nice because you can get a kit (Berzerker being the most appropriated there) but I would leave that to a second playthrough since downtime is pretty annoying (and the result is definitely less powerful than a Fighter/Mage).
I would pick Blade or Fighter/mage if I were you, since they match your spellsword thing better than fighter cleric (which can't wield any sword, actually, but can still fight and cast spells), and both these are more beginner friendly than dual-classing.
My choice would be blade because you are gonna play a full party (Mislead+Bard song is quite interesting even before high level abilities), which is even more beginner-friendly since you will get more spells than a fighter/mage at least early on because exp won't be divided.
Dual classing is often tedious and the pay offs aren't as much as I would like compared to a multiclass which can get the warrior epic level abilities as well as the Mage ones and still get level 9 spells.
Edit: romances for gnomes is limited but Aerie and the 4 new NPCs will romance a gnome (and what gnome wouldn't want a lesbian vampire girlfriend?).
There are four reasons for which you might want to get more fighter level past level 9:
Thac0: the best Thac0 you need to hit someone on every hit except one in SoA and ToB is -11 I believe. You won't meet anyone with an AC lower than -12 in SoA/ToB (though we can't say the same for BP2, the Winged has up to -26 against melee weapon). With a base 12 Thac0, gauntlet (-2) +5 weapon (-5) GM (-3) STR (With 21 STR, -4), Helmet of the Balduran (-1) permanent invisibility bonus (mislead, -4), that's a -7 Thac0, which is decent enough in my experience, and you can slightly boost is with a full team and buffs that come along. Plus at later levels your base thac0 will be even lower thanks to BBoD and its Thac0 based on warrior of half the wizard level Thac0.
Proficiency point: Fair point, though F->M will be using BBoD early enough, and it has grandmastery no matter your class. You might say that Grandmastery argument thus fall off, but F/M will get it very late. As a F/M though you won't need anything except your main weapon and possibly a second, situationnal weapon (Mace of Disruption comes to mind)
HLA: A full build, dual-wielding, improve-hasted F->M will have permanent 9 APR. Hardiness is pointless due to mage protections. Critical strike is not so useful since most enemies are immune to it, and with a F/M you will have a good enough Thac0 to always hit your enemies. Other abilities are irrelevant.
Hit points: Fairly irrelevant since you shouldn't be hit whatsoever with all your protections.
I'm starting to second-guess my decision, after looking at the spells themselves. There's a strong learning curve here, regarding which spells to even learn, let alone use. And how to use them to good effect, alone or in conjunction.
Now I'm wondering if I should forego magic altogether and just let the people in my team handle that, is that even viable? Some games have pretty good handling of computer controlled characters.
I mean, if so, I might just try to build a melee powerhouse I can while they handle the spells, as it might be over my head to learn the best way to apply spells.
I don't mind deliberating over decisions, but I wasn't expecting this much depth and complexity to the system honestly.
And if you have any question about which spells are good to use, just come here. The system is at the same time fairly complex and quite easy. What I mean is that, if you really wanna understand how everything works, it is quite a piece of work, but you can still play and complete the game with low knowledge of the rules. I completed the first BG when I was 7, I just knew how to read, and you can easily understand I really did not pay attention to all the Thac0 thing etc... at that time. I did not even know what saving throws etc... were.
As such, I will add my voice to those who think that dual classing is a bad idea for a first timer. You'll end up spending a significant portion of the game as either only a fighter or only a mage (and not the spellsword that you actually want to play). Much better for your first run to have a character that is fully realized from the first minute of the game so you can focus on the story and NPC interactions (and not have to worry about having a gimped character for the first hours of gameplay.)
Either a F/M multiclass or a Blade will give you the character concept you want right out of the gate, be fairly easy to play, and powerful enough that you won't be second banana to anyone.
If you start with BG, it will be a LONG time before you get all the spells, both arcane and divine, so you'll have plenty of time to get to know all of them.
Remember how easy it is to die during the first few levels of the game, where anybody with "mage" in their job description has it even harder than the other classes. The great thing about the F/M multiclass is that you can start out as a nice, tough fighter until you get mastery of the spells you need to protect yourself without armor.
In the mean time, you can still use wands for spells, and you can fill your first two or three first-level spell slots with identify spells, for identifying magic items.
@GammaPhase , every player has to learn the spell system to succeed at the game, regardless of which class the main character is.
For BG1:EE, there are only a few spells that work reliably or are needed, though. They are:
1st level spells: Sleep (that's really the only mage spell you need at early levels), magic missile (especially after level 3 when you get at least two of them), and some people like blindness, spook, and chromatic orb. You can pretty much ignore the rest. Identify can be useful, and Armor if you want to lose your plate mail early and start being a true spellsword, but that's risky, as the Armor spell is much flimsier than plate. Identify is always handy, as there are many magic items that need to be identified, and some of them are dangerously cursed.
2nd level spells: Web for offense, Mirror Image and Invisibility for defense. Some people like Melf's Acid Arrows, but they don't do much damage at BG1 levels. Very brave spellswords might take off their armor and try to rely on Mirror Image, but you'll only have one or two castings of it at first.
3rd level spells: Things get more interesting here. Fireball is the most popular, but you have to learn how to not hurt your own party with it. Flame Arrow is safe but less useful. Melf's Minute Meteors are good, but they replace your sword until you use them all. A lot of people like Skull Trap. Spirit Armor for defense. You can lose the fighter armor and function as a spellsword if you're careful.
4th level spells: Here's where you can finally be a true spellsword without missing your armor, because of one big, huge, game-changing defensive spell: Stoneskin. Minor Sequencer is good if you can find it, but you may have to wait until BG2. By the time you have access to this spell level, BG1 will be almost over.
5th level spells: You will be unlikely to reach this spell level during BG1 as a multiclass. There are very few copies of 5th level spells in BG1. About the only useful one you can find easily is Cloudkill, a great offensive spell, but again, you have to learn how to not kill your own party with it.
The various spell protections and spell-protection-penetration spells such as Minor Globe of Invulnerability, Protection from Normal Missiles, Secret Word, and such don't really become that important until BG2. There will be a magical arms race in BG2 that will necessitate learning at least a little bit about what protections enemy mages are using and how to dispel them, but you can play BG1 without worrying about it too much.
If you get specific questions as you play, lots of people here will be glad to answer them.
I don't want to keep this thread going forever, and go off topic into questions about magic.
@BelgarathMTH @Arunsun @blackchimes @Vakarian @Yannir and everyone, thanks.
I have decided on FIGHTER / MAGE multiclass! As an Elf, because I think elves are cool.
If you're bored and want to know why, I explain at the end of the post.
But now, some more questions on topic please gentlemen:
Fighter / Mage Creation
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1. What should be my priorities for rolling the abilities like strength, dexterity, and etc?
2. What weapons would you recommend I work on for the proficiencies? I would like to be the best I can in one kind of sword, which kind is recommended, and what other weapons should I consider?
3. Can you share any general adventuring tips, without spoiling too much? I will be starting in Baldur's Gate.
Thanks!
Why I chose F/M
The dual-classing, as you guys pointed out, is for an advanced player who knows the game and how to deal with that downtime. Also, it doesn't feel right to me. Starting in one profession, and then switching into an opposite one. I know this is more RP thinking, but I'm kind of a "soft" player and don't care about powergaming.
The F/M is closest to what I want, using magic when I can. And once I'm out of it, throwing on armor and clean up any stragglers.
I WILL be starting in BG1, so I will have plenty of time to learn the spells. @BelgarathMTH gave me a great introduction to some of the useful ones, and thanks for that! If I must learn them, as it seems I must, then I might as well get my feet wet from the beginning.
And the F/M will forgive my bad decisions when it comes to magic (hopefully) so when I misuse or otherwise pull a rookie mistake using it I have strong combat ability to save my ass.
1.) I'd prioritize Dex, Con, and Int. You can add strength if you get a good roll, but there are plenty of ways to augment your strength through items, potions, or spells.
2.) As an elf, you'll get a bonus to attack with long swords and short swords, so you may as well start with one of those. You'll also have access to some pretty good ones early on in BG1. It's also advisable to be proficient in a ranged weapon (elves also have bonuses to longbows and shortbows) early on so that you can hit enemies before they hit you. You'll eventually transition to using primarily melee weapons, but a bow can really help at low levels.
3.) As @BelgarathMTH mentioned, play like you're a fighter early on. Put on the best armor you can get. It will prevent you from casting spells, but it will help keep you alive. (Note that you cannot switch in/out of armor during combat.) For the first couple of levels, you may want to memorize spells that you can use outside of combat (like identify or friends) and just use wands/scrolls for in-combat casting. Once you get a decent armor class without armor (from robes or bracers + other items) and can cast mirror image, you can switch your memorized spells to ones that are more useful in combat. BelgarathMTH's list is a good start - I'd also recommend trying grease (1st lvl), glitterdust (2nd), strength (2nd, if you didn't max it when rolling your character), and haste/slow (3rd).
Also, you may want to consider taking find familiar with one of your initial spell choices. You only have to cast it once (ever), but it gives you some bonus HP which can really help early on. However, they are pretty fragile (and some bad stuff happens if they die), so you'll probably just want to stow it in your pack and leave it there most of the time.
One thing that I want to point out is that the same spells that work wonders in BG1, don't necessarily work at all in BG2. But we'll cross that bridge when we come to it.
@GammaPhase Thank you for the acknowledgement.
1. You should aim to maximize Str, Dex, Con and Int. Wis and Cha are "dump stats" for this build.
2. Start with longbows and longswords for BG1.
3. Early game do not try to melee. Use ranged weapons and disabling spells to overcome enemies. It is not shameful to skip difficult encounters and come back later.
1) Elves are annoying when you roll a multiclass because of their min charisma.
For a F/M playthrough I usually pick half elf and try to roll as follows:
18 Str/con/dex/int 13+Wis and 3 charisma. If you go for elf, you might want to go for
18Str/int 16 con/dex 12 wis 8 charisma. That's a 88 roll which you can get fairly easily (5min of reroll or so...). If you get a better roll, take a couple more points in con or dex. I know there are many ways to increase your strength in the game, but 18 base STR is just a lot more reliabld and convenient
2) Longswords, Bastard sword maybe, hammer a quite nice as well. I believe you will have 4 proficiency points at level 1, I'd grab longsword ** and longbow **
3) General tip: do NOT rush the story. When you get into a new zone, explore it, don't go straight for your objective.
> 1. What should be my priorities for rolling the abilities like strength, dexterity, and etc?
Strength, dexterity, intelligence and constitution are the most important ones for F/M from mechanics point of view. Maxing dexterity gives you good armor. High strength is nice, though you can overcome the lack of it with items (keep in mind though that strength-boosting items are limited and some of your team mates may want them desperately). Warrior-types can benefit from high CON, it gives them more HP with each level-up, and more health you have the better. Difficulties with INT, WIS, CHA can be solved with potions/items to some degree, but you'll find it more convenient to have high INT and (depending on your playstyle, might matter a bit later in the game) WIS. For Fighter/Mage I would personally max DEX and INT first, then CON and STR, but you may have other priorities.
> 2. What weapons would you recommend I work on for the proficiencies? I would like to be the best I can in one kind of sword, which kind is recommended, and what other weapons should I consider?
Almost all options are good. Flails and long swords are pretty safe choices. A few pips in katanas might be also useful later.
> 3. Can you share any general adventuring tips, without spoiling too much? I will be starting in Baldur's Gate.
Well, have fun!
As a fighter/mage, there's only a single incident (in BG2) where wisdom is relevant, and you should simply grab a Potion of Insight (gives you a wisdom of 18 for 6 hours) for that incident.
As a fighter/mage, you'll get exceptional strength, if you set your strength to 18 (indicated by a percentage number; 00 is best as it means 100). A good total roll (83 or 93) is much more important than that exceptional strength; I would strongly advise you to just ignore that exceptional strength score, as
While you may not cast spells while wearing armour, you absolutely can cast spells while using a shield, so you might consider in investing two points in the sword and shield style as well. 1. For the main story, go to the Friendly Arm Inn first and then travel south to Nashkel. It should be pretty obvious from that point onward where to go and what to do to follow the main story.
2. Explore every map. Note as well that the game won't send you to all maps, so you'll miss most of the game if you don't explore of your own. Make sure to leave every map in every cardinal direction, as different areas become available depending on where you leave the map (so if you leave a map to the south, the area south of where you are will become accessible, but not the areas to the north, west, and east).
3. If fighting larger groups of different enemies, eliminate them in this order: Mages, clerics, ranged fighters, melee fighters.
4. If you're thorough, you'll come across a bastard sword +1 / +3 vs shapeshifters. Keep it. It's advisable to have someone in your group who is proficient with bastard swords. See the next point as well.
5. The expansion to BG1 (Tales of the Sword Coast) is integrated somewhat clumsily in BG1 (that's not the fault of Beamdog; it was done so by BioWare). So don't travel to Durlag's Tower before you've been to Ulgoth's Beard, even if the area becomes available really soon. The best point to travel to Ulgoth's Beard would be (I won't reveal much about the plot in the spoiler, but if you want to know really nothing about the plot: just travel to Ulgoth's Beard quite late in the game, at level 8+):
a) A quest given to you by a mage,
b) A quest where you have to go by boat to reach the quest location,
c) Everything else.
IMPORTANT: Before actually boarding the boat from quest b), make sure you have that bastard sword from 4. with you. The game won't give any hint at all that you need that bastard sword, but you may well get stuck forever if you don't take it with you. It's advisable to have a group member with you who knows how to wield daggers, as well.
If I missed anyone sorry.
Thanks, I'll be starting my game today. We'll see how things go, but I'm ahead of the game now with your wonderful advice.
I wish I could take you on the adventure with me, it would be classic: the veterans coming out of retirement for one last adventure. Waiting for the rookie mistakes.
"Oh no, he's about to get his ass handed to him."
"Well I saw that coming. I've done that before. Nice knowing you kid."
Haha. See you next thread guys.