Monk AC in bg2

nsr

I noticed that in BG1, a monk will benefit from bracers of AC since the monk AC bonus is applied on top. In BG 2, it looks like the bonus is not on top, but just modifies the base AC. Does anyone know which one is the intended behavior?

semiticgoddess

Both are the intended behavior. The lower AC value overwrites the higher AC value.

Bracers of AC, armor, monk base AC, and the spells Shield, Armor, Ghost Armor, Spirit Armor, and Barkskin--all these things use the same type of AC bonus. This AC bonus does not stack: the lowest value applies. If a fighter wears studded leather (AC 7) and wears Bracers of Defense AC 4, then the fighter's AC is set to 4. If a monk has a base AC of 5, and a friendly mage casts Spirit Armor on the monk, then the monk's AC will be 1, instead of 5.

Since BG1 monks have high AC, bracers of AC will generally lower the monk's AC. Since BG2 monks have low AC, bracers should have less or no effect.

sarevok57

well here is what is going on; in bg1, monk's AC aren't to hot, so when they gain levels, their AC bonus doesn't count as an armor bonus, it counts as a "generic bonus", this makes it so their AC bonus can stack with bracers of AC to help give them a fighting chance, and then when you import to bg2 when they gain bonus armor class it counts as an armor bonus instead of a generic bonus, but the problem I experienced was when I imported to SoA my monk still had the generic AC and started the game with -4 AC instead of 1 AC, so in essence yes, it is completely intended, although the monk shouldn't keep the generic bonus when importing to SoA because it's already been applied to his armor bonus ( I went into ee keeper and deleted the bg1 generic AC bonuses to have my proper monk AC)

lunar

sarevok57 said:

well here is what is going on; in bg1, monk's AC aren't to hot, so when they gain levels, their AC bonus doesn't count as an armor bonus, it counts as a "generic bonus", this makes it so their AC bonus can stack with bracers of AC to help give them a fighting chance, and then when you import to bg2 when they gain bonus armor class it counts as an armor bonus instead of a generic bonus, but the problem I experienced was when I imported to SoA my monk still had the generic AC and started the game with -4 AC instead of 1 AC, so in essence yes, it is completely intended, although the monk shouldn't keep the generic bonus when importing to SoA because it's already been applied to his armor bonus ( I went into ee keeper and deleted the bg1 generic AC bonuses to have my proper monk AC)

Sounds like a bug.

In the fighter with studded leather and bracers of ac 4 example, does the fighter benefit from studded leather's ac modifier vs slashing? Like, does it get added on top of the base ac 4 of the bracers? If yes then studded leather+bracers is better than just bracers.

sarevok57

lunar said:

In the fighter with studded leather and bracers of ac 4 example, does the fighter benefit from studded leather's ac modifier vs slashing? Like, does it get added on top of the base ac 4 of the bracers? If yes then studded leather+bracers is better than just bracers.

im going to with yes on that when it comes to bracers of AC and armor the game just takes the better of the 2 values for AC but any modifications from armor ( like vs slashing should stack) and as I said before about the monk AC bonus difference from bg1 to bg2 is that it is intended on how they implicated it, but the bug part is that when you import your bg1 monk to bg2 they don't get rid of the generic AC bonus

sarevok57

oh and on a side note, I tested the bracers + armor thing and yes, you still do get the AC modifiers for the armor even though you are getting the better AC with the bracers

Danacm

There are two different things. In Bgee the monk gain bonus ac at lvling up. It stack with any base armor modification item, like bracers of ac. But in bg2ee for unknown reason is different, the monk not gain bonus ac, instead her base ac lowering at lvl ups. The difference is that the base ac not stack with base ac items, and the maximum is -6 base ac at lvl 40. If it would be bgee bonus ac, with a bracers of ac 3, her ac will be -13. But in current version of bg2ee it has no effect. The method with bgee use is a big improvement of monk ac. I dont know which is the one what beamdog wanna use, but it occurs a bug. When import a bgee char to bg2ee, she has her bonus ac from lvling, ex: at lvl 8 in bgee she has base ac of 10 and -5 bonus ac, in bg2ee in lvl 8 she has 5 base ac and 0 bonus ac. But when u importm she will have 5 base ac and 5 bonus ac, so u gain net 5 ac from the difference method,and its obvious a bug.

Gallowglass

Hmmm. Even if it's deliberate that a Monk's AC works differently in BG2ee from how it works in BG1ee, it still can't be right that the "same" character has a different AC in BG2ee depending upon whether it was imported from BG1ee or created in BG2ee.

I suggest that you post a note in the Bug Reports section, @Danacm.

GreenWarlock

The BG2EE rule of lowering base AC, rather than applying a bonus, is the way the class words in 2nd Edition pen-and-paper version of the game. Getting this more subtle ruling correct (rather than adding a generic AC modifier) was probably more obvious when creating the original BG2 game, and developers were more familiar with the level of complexity of the base game after implementing all of the classes.

Why this would change back-porting the monk to BG1 I don't know, but I might take that as a hint that they run 2 slightly different implementations of the same engine. That would also explain why porting a high level character into the first game will lose their HLAs, high level spells, and other abilities not present in the code for a game that tops out at level 10.

Danacm

Yes, the bg2 method is how the adnd 1e monk ac looks like https://idiscepolidellamanticora.files.wordpress.com/2012/09/tsr2010-players-handbook.pdf) and the adnd 2 monk from faith and avatars. And that latter book says, monk ac do not stack with any of bracers of ac. But some abilities is came from 3e so it not obvious which version was implemented. The other thing i missed from monk is deflect arrows as ability, not just ac vs missle weapons.

Tresset

I am pretty sure that this inconsistency is known about by the devs and that they will correct it with the next patch.

Danacm

I hope they patch it.

Danacm

The adnd 2 monk from the scarlet brotherhood
http://brume.newgallo.dnsalias.net/pmwiki/uploads/PrincesDeLaMer/Greyhawk/TSR11374 - The Scarlet Brotherhood.pdf

Danacm

I found what the monk is the most similar to the bg version. Its from a supplementary book, the scarlet brotherhood adnd 2 monk. Its the complete port from 1e to 2e monk so there is the adnd2 monk pnp. The ac is bonus ac in this version, so the bgee use the method whats in it.