But lemme ask a hard question: Do you yet trully believe that a doppelganger NPC wouldn't fit well in Baldur's Gate or you just can't change the vote so now you want to defend the point for what you voted? Just asking:).
Ps: To say the party will not accept his presence isn't even an valid argument, as we can travel with zentharims, drows, red wizards and a not so much psychopathic Shar-Teel.
To say the party will not accept his presence isn't even an valid argument, as we can travel with zentharims, drows, red wizards and a not so much psychopathic Shar-Teel.
BG2 probally (i really expect this) will introduce Solafein as a new NPC (everything in the vanilla game moved towards a Solafein joinable NPC, i always feel frustated when i saw he would not join the party). So no need for a very probable 3° drow.
Ps: Just hope the probable vanilla Solafein to be better than the mod, i really didn't liked the Solafein with Xan's soul.
I'm not particularly taken in by the idea. But hey, if you want something uniquely Forgotten Realms, why not go Malaugrym? Shapeshifting former humans from the Demi-plane of Shadow. All evil and carnivorous... and capable of completely blending in with humans...
Not as a PC, mind you. As for other points raised on this thread- undead NPCs- Low-powered undead tend to be mindless or incorporeal, or have problems that make them problematic travelling companions (Ghoul and Ghast stench, anybody? And you thought party members who "cut the cheese" were bad...) High-powered undead are too powerful (Vampire, Mummy, Lich, Baelnorn) and have other problems (Who is feeding your vampire? AD&D vampires feed on souls/levels, not really blood. Can't get that in inns.)
Half-Dragon is too powerful for a PC or an NPC in BG. BG2 Might be possible, but because you can't play it in BG, again, not as an PC.
If you want a "different" PC, AD&D 2e has a book called "The Complete Book of Humanoids" that gives these possibilities for alternate races:Aarakocra, Alaghi, Beastman. Bugbear, Bullywug (Advanced), Centaur, Fremlin, Giant-Kin (Firbolg), Giant-Kin (Voadkyn), Gnoll, Gnoll (Flind), Goblin, Hobgoblin, Kobold, Lizard-Man, Minotaur, Mongrelman, Half-Ogre, Ogre, Ogre Mage, Orc, Pixie, Satyr, Saurial (like Dragonbait from Curse of the Azure Bonds) of the Bladeback (Priest), Finhead (Warrior), Flyer (thief) and Hornhead (Mage) types, Swanmay (Ranger Class only) and Wemic (A sort of Lion-Centaur).
@LadyRhian, nice suggestion with the Malaugrym, but he's too overpowered and out of history to be used.
Doppelgangers are common on Faerûn, and most important extremly common in Baldur's Gate saga, for the reasons presented before. They're not overpowered and by lock their shapeshifter skills (using it only in plot based events or without the player control) they're pretty much balanced NPCs whit an huge amount of banter chances, with members of the party and with other NPCs.
The objective is not to collect rare species as NPCs but to get a different approach for a NPC, most of the people that want a Doppelganger has a desire of diferent amusing banters, behavior and personality for this new NPC than a power character.
This Malaugrym for another side are an alien specie, that would lock the options of this new NPC to evil alignment, not only that, after the time of troubles there are only 5 rogue Malaugrym on Faerûm. And above all else, they lack a reason to join the main char, where a doppelganger NPC could find an vast amount of reasons to join Main Char.
Well at least we agree about the Half-Dragon and the undead point ! Half-Dragons overpowered and about undeads the lower ranks arent't aware enough and the high ranks are too powerfull.
I don't want to be closed to books options, bhaalspawn saga is an very special plot (we have even a drow option as party member) and the objective here isn't a playable race but a non playable character, aka NPC, race.
@Kamuizin 5 *known* Malaugrym, and they need humans to reproduce with (since they were once humans themselves). Again, I only really see this working in BG2, and they could join CHARNAME to gain power, magic items and gold. The one that joins the PC could be a lesser Malaugrym or an offspring of one of the known rogues (I believe one of them had gone to ground in Amn). I'd personally love to see a Swanmay NPC.
Now you are somehow supporting my beholder (well... alike) NPC idea... i always joke with it but i truly would like to have a beholder party member (tear on my eyes now!). Be careful @LadyRhian, or i'm going to open a pool to ask for this idea when BG2 EE launch and you will be bound to help me get votes there XD!
But back on topic, the votes are being keep balanced for a long time, from the start to now they're pretty much stabilized in 50%/50%, gonna wait for 100+ votes and call a member of Team BG to evaluate the requests.
Half-doppelganger is probably the best option for an npc, it removes a lot of the overpowered options a full doppleganger would bring. It also allows for a reasonable story-arc as to why he/she might join you if the npc is placed in a zone with other dopplegangers and perhaps imprisoned by them.
Thief seems to me like the most suitable class, with perhaps a few restrictions and some Innate doppleganger abilities thrown in. For example you could give the npc the ability to mimic members of your party via a shapechange ability but only after being in the party for some time.
As with all npc's, the main thing that makes them interesting is dialogue, not necessarily abilities. Keeping things simple usually works out better over all.
What about a horse NPC? Or even a DRAGON NPC? Man, the possibilities!
Ooh! Yeah! Just think how cool it would be to have a Chaotic Good Aboleth NPC! It could have its very own tank of water, pulled by the horse and dragon NPCs, going from adventure to adventure, thwarting tyranny at every slosh . . . um, I mean turn.
@Mortianna, so please be coherent to your comment and never use viconia or edwin in your games, as a Drow is a monster race by the book rules and red wizard where not meant to be a usable class.
And oh yeah, don't forget to refuse Sarevok in ToB, as he's something so crazy that he's is and he is not a undead at the same time!
Did i mention Faldorn? The shadow druid? it's a class made to opposite a player by D&D lore, not to be used by the player.
Hey did you know that a godling isn't an avaliable option in D&D settings? So now that you know make yourself a favor and don't play the game.
@Rabain, The best point of it is that Beamdog pretend to carry the BG NPCs to BG2, and a doppelganger pure thief in BG would fill the hole that exist in BG2 of no pure thief NPC. And that's a HUGE NEED for BG2.
@Mortianna, so please be coherent to your comment and never use viconia or edwin in your games, as a Drow is a monster race by the book rules and red wizard where not meant to be a usable class.
And oh yeah, don't forget to refuse Sarevok in ToB, as he's something so crazy that he's is and he is not a undead at the same time!
Did i mention Faldorn? The shadow druid? it's a class made to opposite a player by D&D lore, not to be used by the player.
Hey did you know that a godling isn't an avaliable option in D&D settings? So now that you know make yourself a favor and don't play the game.
You've just convinced me and I've changed my mind. A Doppleganger NPC is a brilliant idea.
My comment was a facetious reference to unlikely characters. I couldn't care less about how other people play D&D. Adventure with elder black puddings for all I care. I'm not suggesting to you how you should play your games, so kindly don't tell me how to play mine.
Ooh! Yeah! Just think how cool it would be to have a Chaotic Good Aboleth NPC! It could have its very own tank of water, pulled by the horse and dragon NPCs, going from adventure to adventure, thwarting tyranny at every slosh . . . um, I mean turn.
No @Mortianna, you're just mocking the suggestions that i support, as you're mocking the other persons that support this idea too. The fact you didn't point the mockery to me or to any other specific person doesn't mean that i will not take offense.
If you want to type what you want, be ready to read what you don't want. No one is obliged to agree with me or the other persons that support a doppelganger NPC, but from the many ways to disagree you choose to mock a serious feature request that atm is supported for 50% of the voters .
Also, Doppelganger is one of the more plausible ideas for a new NPC, since doppelgangers actually play a pretty significant role in the main plot of BG1. That's not to say that I think it will happen, ever, but I absolutely love the concept.
Official Doppleganger NPC is like world peace idea. We can want it, but look like half country is ok with war. So it is probably never happen, but concept is right.
( And also " presidents " never read this topics )
@kamuizin So why have you spared thine scoldings from @Kukaracha or @Awong124? Clearly, their comments do not conform to the weighty issue that is at hand in this, I mean, your thread. Or was my flippant comment especially offensive in some way to you?
To clarify my statement, the mythical backround of the doppelgänger defines it as a phenomenon, not as a creature. An evil twin of sorts, a ghostly manisfestation of devilish energy.
Even though D&D later considered it as a race, it belongs to those very peculiar forms of life that would require a drastically different storyline to really make sense, like Ilithids, Githyankis, Devas, Dragons, Lichs, etc. A human, a gnome and an elf can have a very similar life, but a magical horse? A god? It becomes unlikely that such a character can find itself in the BG storyline.
A doppelganger is more plausible (not to be confused with probable) in the BG storyline specifically because of what happens at Candlekeep. The player has a very real, immediate, tangible reason to distrust such a character at first, which creates some great opportunities for the protagonist's growth as well as the NPC's. A half-doppelganger who is at odds with her heritage, maybe one whose family was involved with the Candlekeep incident, would be looking for opportunities to redeem herself in the protagonist's eyes, which creates a lot of good drama. The doppelganger culture more closely resembles human cultures than the other ones you mention, which means that it isn't terribly difficult to imagine how such a character might act.
To clarify my statement, the mythical backround of the doppelgänger defines it as a phenomenon, not as a creature. An evil twin of sorts, a ghostly manisfestation of devilish energy.
Even though D&D later considered it as a race, it belongs to those very peculiar forms of life that would require a drastically different storyline to really make sense, like Ilithids, Githyankis, Devas, Dragons, Lichs, etc. A human, a gnome and an elf can have a very similar life, but a magical horse? A god? It becomes unlikely that such a character can find itself in the BG storyline.
Not only that but it simply won't happen. : )
You do realize the Seven Suns in Baldur's Gate is a building full of them right?
Come to think of it, if there was a doppleganger NPC, there could be special sequences inside the Seven Suns.
If it isn't a breach of contract, just changing Frennedan to become a joinable npc would work just fine. He's not at all important, and you just end up killing him anyway.
@Mortianna i don't have to reply in anger every comment, the mistake of others don't justify your own mistakes, so excuse my impertinence but this is a lesson for life, not just for this forum.
I answered @Kukaracha in kind already when i had to and @Awong124 i didn't care much about his joke, if that's because he voted yes, because the joke is simple or just because i was in a good mood at the time, i don't know.
As you i made some sarcastic jokes in this forum, when i do it i'm prepared to get back fire. I just give you the same sarcastic comment you give to this thread. When you tried to call your sarcastic as a personal opinion, i just uncover that.
As you asked nice why i replied in kind your comment i had this trouble of explain the why in a nice way, but be free to use sarcastic comments, jokes and mocks, i do it all the time, just don't feel offense when someone answer you in kind, it's a consequence.
I'm not a nice person to argue as many here can say it, but when people fire me back in reason of spice comments, i don't cry a river because of it, some times i deserve the back fire and most of times i just reply back.
Comments
But lemme ask a hard question: Do you yet trully believe that a doppelganger NPC wouldn't fit well in Baldur's Gate or you just can't change the vote so now you want to defend the point for what you voted? Just asking:).
Ps:
To say the party will not accept his presence isn't even an valid argument, as we can travel with zentharims, drows, red wizards and a not so much psychopathic Shar-Teel.
Look at it this way: another Drow, or a awesomely cool doppleganger?
Ps: Just hope the probable vanilla Solafein to be better than the mod, i really didn't liked the Solafein with Xan's soul.
http://www.roleplaynexus.com/malaugrym.html
Not as a PC, mind you. As for other points raised on this thread- undead NPCs- Low-powered undead tend to be mindless or incorporeal, or have problems that make them problematic travelling companions (Ghoul and Ghast stench, anybody? And you thought party members who "cut the cheese" were bad...) High-powered undead are too powerful (Vampire, Mummy, Lich, Baelnorn) and have other problems (Who is feeding your vampire? AD&D vampires feed on souls/levels, not really blood. Can't get that in inns.)
Half-Dragon is too powerful for a PC or an NPC in BG. BG2 Might be possible, but because you can't play it in BG, again, not as an PC.
If you want a "different" PC, AD&D 2e has a book called "The Complete Book of Humanoids" that gives these possibilities for alternate races:Aarakocra, Alaghi, Beastman. Bugbear, Bullywug (Advanced), Centaur, Fremlin, Giant-Kin (Firbolg), Giant-Kin (Voadkyn), Gnoll, Gnoll (Flind), Goblin, Hobgoblin, Kobold, Lizard-Man, Minotaur, Mongrelman, Half-Ogre, Ogre, Ogre Mage, Orc, Pixie, Satyr, Saurial (like Dragonbait from Curse of the Azure Bonds) of the Bladeback (Priest), Finhead (Warrior), Flyer (thief) and Hornhead (Mage) types, Swanmay (Ranger Class only) and Wemic (A sort of Lion-Centaur).
Doppelgangers are common on Faerûn, and most important extremly common in Baldur's Gate saga, for the reasons presented before. They're not overpowered and by lock their shapeshifter skills (using it only in plot based events or without the player control) they're pretty much balanced NPCs whit an huge amount of banter chances, with members of the party and with other NPCs.
The objective is not to collect rare species as NPCs but to get a different approach for a NPC, most of the people that want a Doppelganger has a desire of diferent amusing banters, behavior and personality for this new NPC than a power character.
This Malaugrym for another side are an alien specie, that would lock the options of this new NPC to evil alignment, not only that, after the time of troubles there are only 5 rogue Malaugrym on Faerûm. And above all else, they lack a reason to join the main char, where a doppelganger NPC could find an vast amount of reasons to join Main Char.
http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Malaugrym
Well at least we agree about the Half-Dragon and the undead point
I don't want to be closed to books options, bhaalspawn saga is an very special plot (we have even a drow option as party member) and the objective here isn't a playable race but a non playable character, aka NPC, race.
But back on topic, the votes are being keep balanced for a long time, from the start to now they're pretty much stabilized in 50%/50%, gonna wait for 100+ votes and call a member of Team BG to evaluate the requests.
Thief seems to me like the most suitable class, with perhaps a few restrictions and some Innate doppleganger abilities thrown in. For example you could give the npc the ability to mimic members of your party via a shapechange ability but only after being in the party for some time.
As with all npc's, the main thing that makes them interesting is dialogue, not necessarily abilities. Keeping things simple usually works out better over all.
And oh yeah, don't forget to refuse Sarevok in ToB, as he's something so crazy that he's is and he is not a undead at the same time!
Did i mention Faldorn? The shadow druid? it's a class made to opposite a player by D&D lore, not to be used by the player.
Hey did you know that a godling isn't an avaliable option in D&D settings? So now that you know make yourself a favor and don't play the game.
@Rabain, The best point of it is that Beamdog pretend to carry the BG NPCs to BG2, and a doppelganger pure thief in BG would fill the hole that exist in BG2 of no pure thief NPC. And that's a HUGE NEED for BG2.
My comment was a facetious reference to unlikely characters. I couldn't care less about how other people play D&D. Adventure with elder black puddings for all I care. I'm not suggesting to you how you should play your games, so kindly don't tell me how to play mine.
No @Mortianna, you're just mocking the suggestions that i support, as you're mocking the other persons that support this idea too. The fact you didn't point the mockery to me or to any other specific person doesn't mean that i will not take offense.
If you want to type what you want, be ready to read what you don't want. No one is obliged to agree with me or the other persons that support a doppelganger NPC, but from the many ways to disagree you choose to mock a serious feature request that atm is supported for 50% of the voters .
Official Doppleganger NPC is like world peace idea.
We can want it, but look like half country is ok with war.
So it is probably never happen, but concept is right.
( And also " presidents " never read this topics
Even though D&D later considered it as a race, it belongs to those very peculiar forms of life that would require a drastically different storyline to really make sense, like Ilithids, Githyankis, Devas, Dragons, Lichs, etc. A human, a gnome and an elf can have a very similar life, but a magical horse? A god? It becomes unlikely that such a character can find itself in the BG storyline.
Not only that but it simply won't happen. : )
Come to think of it, if there was a doppleganger NPC, there could be special sequences inside the Seven Suns.
(Incidentally, this would also avoid issues with manipulating the original content and breaching contract...)
Hrm. Frennedan would be a good spot for a doppelganger NPC to make an appearance. Of course, at that point it would have to be a user-created mod...
I answered @Kukaracha in kind already when i had to and @Awong124 i didn't care much about his joke, if that's because he voted yes, because the joke is simple or just because i was in a good mood at the time, i don't know.
As you i made some sarcastic jokes in this forum, when i do it i'm prepared to get back fire. I just give you the same sarcastic comment you give to this thread. When you tried to call your sarcastic as a personal opinion, i just uncover that.
As you asked nice why i replied in kind your comment i had this trouble of explain the why in a nice way, but be free to use sarcastic comments, jokes and mocks, i do it all the time, just don't feel offense when someone answer you in kind, it's a consequence.
I'm not a nice person to argue as many here can say it, but when people fire me back in reason of spice comments, i don't cry a river because of it, some times i deserve the back fire and most of times i just reply back.