The planar prison will have to wait a bit. I have to help Anomen get over his sister's murder, give some acorns to the dryads in Windspear then rescue some kid from Firkraag, and before going to the Prison I'll want to dump the Minsc/Aerie duo in favor of Keldorn and someone else ... possibly Yoshimo for both finding and setting traps, or Jan for thief + magic. Also, I'd like to get a few more levels under my belt before trying that scenario; it was a bit of a bother even for my berserker. I'll definitely want the rod of resurrection as well, but I don't have the cash for that just yet.
Also, I have 4 people now who have done the D'Arnis Keep quest (Blade, Monk, Swashbuckler->Wizard and Archer); I'm getting sick of doing the damned thing. I think I'll just forget about the others kits who are still waiting their turn, take these 4 folks through Windspear and then use that as a basis to decide which one I'll use for the complete run-through.
I decided to use the same quests, in the same order, when trying to evaluate how effective a given kit is compared to another, in order to get a reliable baseline. So, it's Irenicus prison -> Circus Tent -> D'Arnis Keep -> Windspear quests, since they are relatively easy to access and pretty straightforward.
Honestly I consider it fair to console spawn a set of Elven Chain Mail into the game since there isn't one available for a long time unless you zerg rush the Planar Prison. It's not fair that Bards are the only class (that can wear armor) that has to go totally unarmored until they finish a semi-difficult quest.
Pretty sure you can pick a set up in Trademeet if you choose to side with one of the families (rather than side with both). Lord Skarmaen Alibakkar is wearing some.
Pretty sure you can pick a set up in Trademeet if you choose to side with one of the families (rather than side with both).
You can, but that's the "evil" path so to speak and I can never bring myself to do it, I always give it to lord Logan. I think lady luraxxol is the one who has the chain though so you're definitely right about there being one.
My Blade can get a decent AC using Bracers AC 3, so she can wait for the elven chain. I do have a question about gear, though. As a Bard kit, she can only use bucklers if she wants to single wield a weapon instead of dual wielding. The same thing goes for my Swashbuckler.There are all sorts of shields about, but I can't ever recall seeing an enchanted buckler; are there any available? I mean, come on guys, Bards and Thieves need love also!
Ya, I would assume a Blade would do the Planar Prison ASAP. On top of the Bard specific elven chain in it, if I remember, Belm and boots of speed are also located in the same area.
There was a good one in Durlag's tower that give +1 dexterity, but I can't remember any in BG2. If you want to cheat maybe you can ''find'' that one.
Bucklers don't give any piercing or missile bonus. I usually use a pip in single-weapon style because it increases your critical hit in addition to a full +1 AC bonus (but it's a waste if you are going for dual-wielding).
Ya, I would assume a Blade would do the Planar Prison ASAP. On top of the Bard specific elven chain in it, if I remember, Belm and boots of speed are also located in the same area.
Belm is a scimitar, found in the Trademeet druid grove quest. I gave it to Jaheira the first time around. There are boots of speed all over the place, although most of them become available much later on. And there is little point in attempting the planar prison quest if you aren't tough enough to survive it. Like I said, I want to jettison the Minsc/Aerie duo before I do that.
Oh, and as a side note, any bard kit I create has to be female. That way I can name her after the greatest female vocalist of all time. No, not Grace Slick, not Bette Midler, not even Kate Smith.
The only enchanted buckler I can remember is behind the last locked and trapped practice door in Mae'Var's guildhall, it's a buckler +1. You're honestly better off just putting pips in single weapon style.
1) Archers, as a ranger kit, can also train in stealth. Right now, mine has both hiding and move silently at 100%, as well as Sandthief's ring and the cloak of non-detection. If I'm invisible AND hiding at the same time, does that make me doubly hard to detect? I suspect the answer is no, but logically it should be yes.
2) What's the story on the cloak of non-detection? I recall reading elsewhere that it does not in fact work as advertised, but I don't recall the details.
3)The Stalker ranger kit basically works off backstabbing as an attack skill. There is probably no such thing as backstabbing with missile weapons, but just the act of attacking from hiding is supposed to give a +4 on Thac0 when using melee weapons. Does this apply to missile weapons also?
1) Being invisible doesn't make you harder to detect, but it does give you a safety net in case you fail a stealth check. Since staying hidden has almost nothing to do the NPCs around you, most of the modifiers are environment-based.
2) Unless I'm mistaken, the *Cloak* of non-detection works just fine, it's the non-detection spell that doesn't work properly, because it gets dispelled by True Sight.
3) I don't know.
And yeah, if you want magical bucklers beyond the +1 in Mae'var's guild, you need a mod. I know Rogue Rebalancing adds a few interesting ones.
@FrdNwsm: Attacking while hidden only gives a +4 bonus to THAC0 with melee weapons.
The Cloak of Non-Detection will prevent True Sight from revealing characters using stealth or the Staff of the Magi, but not other forms of invisibility.
I used him once, the first time I played the game. He tried to get in between me and Aerie (before I realized how annoying she was) and I vowed to never use that douchebag again.
Well, getting down to the wire. Still 4 contenders but narrowing them down.
1) I have my swashbuckler at level 12, ready to dual over to mage. Basically would be a super physical Imoen, sacrificing a couple of mage levels for 100% setting traps and better weapon skills. I know this build would be effective since I had Imoen with the good party all the way through the end. Probably won't use this one though; too repetitious, although it would let me replace Imoen with someone else if I felt the need. 4th on the list.
2) Monk, also level 12. I know I said it was just another fighter kit, but punching things upside the head is sort of fun. A long shot, but still in the running.
3) Archer, level 10. A bit tricky, since some things are puncture proof, as I found out. But that's why the gods invented slings. I must say, I'd like to have the capability of grandmastery in slings also. I know, the kit is called "archer" and not "peltast", but still ... missile weapons in general. Also why do all rangers get dual wielding as a specialty skill? OK, it comes free with the kit, but I'd like two more pips (or even one!) in something else as an option. Slings are one handed weapons ... can I dual wield them? Have to try it, although I am sure the answer is no, or should be. (The off hand should be busy loading stones into the sling). But even with Minsc, I never had him dual wield anything; two pips in dual wielding doesn't nearly offset the Thac0 loss.
Unfortunately there aren't nearly as many interesting bows out there as there are 2 handed melee weapons or one-handed weapon/shield combos. Sort of a bland assortment. Tuigan bow, Gesen bow, Heartseeker, and Mana bow are the main ones. Also, while Firetooth is +4 to hit, apparently the bolts themselves are considered only +2? Again the ammo problem surfaces. The Erinn sling seems mandatory.
4) Blade seems to be top contender right now. Gave her the girdle of hill giant strength and two of those temporary +3 longswords and her Thac0 isn't that terrible; certainly the spells help a lot. And three slots in dual wielding is better than the two that Rangers get. A good candidate for Tenser's, although my Sarevok Fighter/Mage was the best, hands down. 312 HP!
I was 14 and I wanted the first girl that batted her eyelashes at me, the last decade has made me wiser believe me.
Few points though:
- Swash dialled at 12 is fine but 10 would have been better since he gets his bonuses every 5 levels. It just means one or two less levels as a mage if you hit the cap.
- Rangers actually can get 3 pips in two weapon fighting, they just start with 2 automatically. You can put a third one in it whenever you like. Even with only 1 pip in weapons the archer can make melee combat work due to the Rangers natural thac0 progression but I would honestly go with 2 handed or single weapon to save you some hassle with weapon swapping. I'd also carry a shield around for when you need to use slings, might as well have it equipped at the same time.
- The lack of good ammunition is why the Archer kind of stalls out in ToB. The upgraded fire tooth, erinne's sling or gesens bow should be able to hit most enemies in the game but equipped ammo will only be useful against trash mobs like the githyanki in watchers keep.
"- Swash dialled at 12 is fine but 10 would have been better since he gets his bonuses every 5 levels. It just means one or two less levels as a mage if you hit the cap."
Yes, I considered that, but at 12 he gets another skill pip, and also has 100% in all relevant thief skills. One level less in mage skills isn't that critical, since I plan to always have another mage in the party. I got Imoen to level 24 and she was fine. Also, I was considering not dualing at all, and keeping him as a pure thief subkit. Hexxat did just fine in my evil party run through; her traps slaughtered hundreds of fire giants, and once thieves get the "use any item" HLA, you can give them wands and scrolls and such so that they can function as minimages in an emergency.
" Rangers actually can get 3 pips in two weapon fighting, they just start with 2 automatically. "
Yes, I know. My point was that even if I don't WANT my ranger to have training in dual-wielding, I am stuck with it. I'd like the option to trade that in for something different.
The description for Firetooth says missiles count as +2, but they actually count as +4 (or +5 once the crossbow's been upgraded). Unsure if this is a bug or a problem with the description (should be the latter, because archers rely on Firetooth).
I'd also add Strong Arm to the list of semi-useful bows just because of its high damage, but I can say from experience (used Strong Arm for an archer through ToB myself) longbows aren't that great compared to shortbows and crossbows - higher damage, but can't hit those enemies immune to +3 arrows.
Off-topic: Maybe this would be a better tradeoff if Taralash was buffed somehow - missiles fired from it all hit as +4/+5, for instance, or even additional +4/+5 damage. Right now that bow is billed as an endgame ToB weapon, but seems totally pointless in reality.
Pure Thieves are one of my favourite classes in the game but they just don't hold up late in the game unless you trap cheese your opponents. I want a character who can turn enemies into chunks, not one who struggles to hit compared to his fighter-type party members. I guess the Swashbucklet would be the closest thing to that though.
The option would be nice but you've gotta remember that those two points don't mean that the Ranger gets less proficiencies to spend, they're literally just free pips. You should still get the same number (6?) at character creation as a Paladin I believe, except you've already got 2** in Two-Weapon fighting in case you ever feel like dual-wielding.
" but they just don't hold up late in the game unless you trap cheese your opponents. "
I don't consider this "cheesy" at all. Luring opponents into a trap is a time honored practice in the art of warfare. You lay out a minefield, send someone with boots of speed out ahead and get some giants or whatever to chase them back into it. Perfectly legitimate ruse. Look at Armenius at the battle of Teutoburgerwald, or Hannibal's feigned retreat at Cannae.
"Leading the Romans into the woods and ambushing them? Shame on you, Armenius! That's really cheesy!"
(And no, I don't want to get into the debate over whether the retreat of Hannibal's central force was feigned, or forced due to the superiority of the centralized Roman heavy infantry. A double flank envelopment was the crux of his plan, and it worked.)
The reference to the second punic war is awesome, I took a few courses on ancient and roman history in university. Hannibal was a total badass, and the one who could take him down was the equally badass Scipio Africanus. Two of history's greatest generals going toe-to-toe was much more interesting to read about than the Romans systematically curb-stomping everyone (often including themselves) for the next 600 years.
But on topic, by cheese I don't mean just dropping traps, I mean dropping traps then resting then dropping more traps. Not that it's really needed with how OP Spike Traps are, but still.
I used that technique to take down Firkraag once and I felt so dirty afterwards that I actually deleted that character.
I'm a military history buff for many years. Some of the Roman campaigns are interesting; read up on the battle of Alesia. Julius vs Vercingetorix; it's the only instance of a double circumvallation that I can think of. It's been referred to as the "tactical doughnut" battle.
Publius Cornelius Scipio was one of Rome's better generals of the time. "Africanus" was a title (agnomen) awarded to him after his final defeat of Hannibal at Zama.
As for Firkraag, he's an arrogant SOB, but rightfully so; a tough nut to crack with a relatively low level party. If he's dumb enough to chase you into a minefield, that's on him. I have no problem with it. He deserves it for playing mind games with you. Minefields really only work if the enemy doesn't know they are there, which is why you can't lay traps within viewing distance of an opponent.
Well, unless you are the Russians in WW2, when you don't care about mines and clear a minefield by ordering your infantry to march through it.
Yes, I know. My point was that even if I don't WANT my ranger to have training in dual-wielding, I am stuck with it. I'd like the option to trade that in for something different.
That's like saying you want your cleric to start out with a few mage spells. It's a class feature. And as already mentioned, those points are free.
Yes, I know. My point was that even if I don't WANT my ranger to have training in dual-wielding, I am stuck with it. I'd like the option to trade that in for something different.
That's like saying you want your cleric to start out with a few mage spells. It's a class feature. And as already mentioned, those points are free.
Tanstaafl. Beware of geeks bearing gifts. And hey, my avenger druid had some mage spells, why not my cleric?
"If my enemy was stupid enough to follow, then shame on them."
"The base AI is really dumb."
But at the end of the day, you're not fighting for glory or honor. You're fighting to win. I play a paladin in most games, but, and maybe this is just the Marine in me, I fight to win.
I remember another saying I was taught growing up, and it's the philosophy of my good characters, especially my paladins.
"Always avoid the fight if you can. Because if you have to fight, be committed to having to kill them if need be. And remember, fighting fair is fighting dead."
PS: sorry this was On Cheese, and regarding Hannibal etc. I'm a historian as well, or that's what the silly paper on my desk says. Granted, I only took a view classes in Ancient. My specialty was US history.
Also, if you both haven't read them. You'd likely enjoy The Art of War by Sun Tzu and On War by Von Clauswitz
Comments
Also, I have 4 people now who have done the D'Arnis Keep quest (Blade, Monk, Swashbuckler->Wizard and Archer); I'm getting sick of doing the damned thing. I think I'll just forget about the others kits who are still waiting their turn, take these 4 folks through Windspear and then use that as a basis to decide which one I'll use for the complete run-through.
I decided to use the same quests, in the same order, when trying to evaluate how effective a given kit is compared to another, in order to get a reliable baseline. So, it's Irenicus prison -> Circus Tent -> D'Arnis Keep -> Windspear quests, since they are relatively easy to access and pretty straightforward.
@FrdNwsm
Ya, I had already know about their item use. As it is, I'll be heading into BG2EE with 19 str anyway
Bucklers don't give any piercing or missile bonus. I usually use a pip in single-weapon style because it increases your critical hit in addition to a full +1 AC bonus (but it's a waste if you are going for dual-wielding).
Belm is a scimitar, found in the Trademeet druid grove quest. I gave it to Jaheira the first time around. There are boots of speed all over the place, although most of them become available much later on. And there is little point in attempting the planar prison quest if you aren't tough enough to survive it. Like I said, I want to jettison the Minsc/Aerie duo before I do that.
Yeah ... THAT Janis
1) Archers, as a ranger kit, can also train in stealth. Right now, mine has both hiding and move silently at 100%, as well as Sandthief's ring and the cloak of non-detection. If I'm invisible AND hiding at the same time, does that make me doubly hard to detect? I suspect the answer is no, but logically it should be yes.
2) What's the story on the cloak of non-detection? I recall reading elsewhere that it does not in fact work as advertised, but I don't recall the details.
3)The Stalker ranger kit basically works off backstabbing as an attack skill. There is probably no such thing as backstabbing with missile weapons, but just the act of attacking from hiding is supposed to give a +4 on Thac0 when using melee weapons. Does this apply to missile weapons also?
2) Unless I'm mistaken, the *Cloak* of non-detection works just fine, it's the non-detection spell that doesn't work properly, because it gets dispelled by True Sight.
3) I don't know.
And yeah, if you want magical bucklers beyond the +1 in Mae'var's guild, you need a mod. I know Rogue Rebalancing adds a few interesting ones.
The Cloak of Non-Detection will prevent True Sight from revealing characters using stealth or the Staff of the Magi, but not other forms of invisibility.
Confession time: I've never really used him
You were actually thinking of romancing that bird brain? Sheesh, how desperate were you?
1) I have my swashbuckler at level 12, ready to dual over to mage. Basically would be a super physical Imoen, sacrificing a couple of mage levels for 100% setting traps and better weapon skills. I know this build would be effective since I had Imoen with the good party all the way through the end. Probably won't use this one though; too repetitious, although it would let me replace Imoen with someone else if I felt the need. 4th on the list.
2) Monk, also level 12. I know I said it was just another fighter kit, but punching things upside the head is sort of fun. A long shot, but still in the running.
3) Archer, level 10. A bit tricky, since some things are puncture proof, as I found out. But that's why the gods invented slings. I must say, I'd like to have the capability of grandmastery in slings also. I know, the kit is called "archer" and not "peltast", but still ... missile weapons in general. Also why do all rangers get dual wielding as a specialty skill? OK, it comes free with the kit, but I'd like two more pips (or even one!) in something else as an option. Slings are one handed weapons ... can I dual wield them? Have to try it, although I am sure the answer is no, or should be. (The off hand should be busy loading stones into the sling). But even with Minsc, I never had him dual wield anything; two pips in dual wielding doesn't nearly offset the Thac0 loss.
Unfortunately there aren't nearly as many interesting bows out there as there are 2 handed melee weapons or one-handed weapon/shield combos. Sort of a bland assortment. Tuigan bow, Gesen bow, Heartseeker, and Mana bow are the main ones. Also, while Firetooth is +4 to hit, apparently the bolts themselves are considered only +2? Again the ammo problem surfaces. The Erinn sling seems mandatory.
4) Blade seems to be top contender right now. Gave her the girdle of hill giant strength and two of those temporary +3 longswords and her Thac0 isn't that terrible; certainly the spells help a lot. And three slots in dual wielding is better than the two that Rangers get. A good candidate for Tenser's, although my Sarevok Fighter/Mage was the best, hands down. 312 HP!
Few points though:
- Swash dialled at 12 is fine but 10 would have been better since he gets his bonuses every 5 levels. It just means one or two less levels as a mage if you hit the cap.
- Rangers actually can get 3 pips in two weapon fighting, they just start with 2 automatically. You can put a third one in it whenever you like. Even with only 1 pip in weapons the archer can make melee combat work due to the Rangers natural thac0 progression but I would honestly go with 2 handed or single weapon to save you some hassle with weapon swapping. I'd also carry a shield around for when you need to use slings, might as well have it equipped at the same time.
- The lack of good ammunition is why the Archer kind of stalls out in ToB. The upgraded fire tooth, erinne's sling or gesens bow should be able to hit most enemies in the game but equipped ammo will only be useful against trash mobs like the githyanki in watchers keep.
"- Swash dialled at 12 is fine but 10 would have been better since he gets his bonuses every 5 levels. It just means one or two less levels as a mage if you hit the cap."
Yes, I considered that, but at 12 he gets another skill pip, and also has 100% in all relevant thief skills. One level less in mage skills isn't that critical, since I plan to always have another mage in the party. I got Imoen to level 24 and she was fine. Also, I was considering not dualing at all, and keeping him as a pure thief subkit. Hexxat did just fine in my evil party run through; her traps slaughtered hundreds of fire giants, and once thieves get the "use any item" HLA, you can give them wands and scrolls and such so that they can function as minimages in an emergency.
" Rangers actually can get 3 pips in two weapon fighting, they just start with 2 automatically. "
Yes, I know. My point was that even if I don't WANT my ranger to have training in dual-wielding, I am stuck with it. I'd like the option to trade that in for something different.
I'd also add Strong Arm to the list of semi-useful bows just because of its high damage, but I can say from experience (used Strong Arm for an archer through ToB myself) longbows aren't that great compared to shortbows and crossbows - higher damage, but can't hit those enemies immune to +3 arrows.
Off-topic: Maybe this would be a better tradeoff if Taralash was buffed somehow - missiles fired from it all hit as +4/+5, for instance, or even additional +4/+5 damage. Right now that bow is billed as an endgame ToB weapon, but seems totally pointless in reality.
The option would be nice but you've gotta remember that those two points don't mean that the Ranger gets less proficiencies to spend, they're literally just free pips. You should still get the same number (6?) at character creation as a Paladin I believe, except you've already got 2** in Two-Weapon fighting in case you ever feel like dual-wielding.
I don't consider this "cheesy" at all. Luring opponents into a trap is a time honored practice in the art of warfare. You lay out a minefield, send someone with boots of speed out ahead and get some giants or whatever to chase them back into it. Perfectly legitimate ruse. Look at Armenius at the battle of Teutoburgerwald, or Hannibal's feigned retreat at Cannae.
"Leading the Romans into the woods and ambushing them? Shame on you, Armenius! That's really cheesy!"
(And no, I don't want to get into the debate over whether the retreat of Hannibal's central force was feigned, or forced due to the superiority of the centralized Roman heavy infantry. A double flank envelopment was the crux of his plan, and it worked.)
But on topic, by cheese I don't mean just dropping traps, I mean dropping traps then resting then dropping more traps. Not that it's really needed with how OP Spike Traps are, but still.
I used that technique to take down Firkraag once and I felt so dirty afterwards that I actually deleted that character.
Publius Cornelius Scipio was one of Rome's better generals of the time. "Africanus" was a title (agnomen) awarded to him after his final defeat of Hannibal at Zama.
As for Firkraag, he's an arrogant SOB, but rightfully so; a tough nut to crack with a relatively low level party. If he's dumb enough to chase you into a minefield, that's on him. I have no problem with it. He deserves it for playing mind games with you. Minefields really only work if the enemy doesn't know they are there, which is why you can't lay traps within viewing distance of an opponent.
Well, unless you are the Russians in WW2, when you don't care about mines and clear a minefield by ordering your infantry to march through it.
Beware of geeks bearing gifts.
And hey, my avenger druid had some mage spells, why not my cleric?
"If my enemy was stupid enough to follow, then shame on them."
"The base AI is really dumb."
But at the end of the day, you're not fighting for glory or honor. You're fighting to win. I play a paladin in most games, but, and maybe this is just the Marine in me, I fight to win.
I remember another saying I was taught growing up, and it's the philosophy of my good characters, especially my paladins.
"Always avoid the fight if you can. Because if you have to fight, be committed to having to kill them if need be. And remember, fighting fair is fighting dead."
PS: sorry this was On Cheese, and regarding Hannibal etc. I'm a historian as well, or that's what the silly paper on my desk says. Granted, I only took a view classes in Ancient. My specialty was US history.
Also, if you both haven't read them. You'd likely enjoy The Art of War by Sun Tzu and On War by Von Clauswitz