Kit comparisons
FrdNwsm
Member Posts: 1,069
I have created eight new characters in SoA Ch1 for another run through. They'll be a level less than they would be if they ported over after going through BG1, but I didn't have the patience to suffer through the wimpiness of low level characters again. (Oh no! Three wild dogs! Run away!) Not to mention fighting endless streams of kobold kommandos.
I figured I'd take each one up to Ch 3 of SoA to see which one would be the best candidate for a complete game. I even created up some similar characters in the start of ToB, to get a feel for what they might be like later on, although this isn't really as informative as actually playing them. So, I am curious what the general consensus of more experienced folks might be. Some kits look pretty straightforward, but I have some doubts about a couple of them.
Half-orc cleric of Lathander, true neutral alignment. Should be decent replacement for Anomen.
Elevn ranger/stalker. Pretty straightforward: backstab city.
Elven ranger/archer. Been reading the archer discussion, and it sounds doable with some care.
ELven druid/avenger. Not as good a tank as Jaheira, but rises and gets high level spells faster.
Dwarven fighter/defender. Big time tank; nuff said.
Human monk/soul sun. Mean with the fists, and gets some immunities; should be a reasonable sub for a fighter kit.
These all sound pretty decent. I do have some questions about:
1) Human swashbuckler, 18 Int. Took him to level 11 and was going to switch him over to mage; this plan is why he got an IQ of 18 to start with. A better thief/mage than Imoen, with traps at 100% in addition to the other thief skills. But if I wanted a thief mage, I already have Imoen and Nalia. Might be a bit redundant. So far, I have opted for keeping him a swashbuckler; if he gets to a level where he can choose HLAs, the "use any item" skill is a no brainer, and gives some strong buffs to the abilities any of the thief kits. But how useful will he be until then? The loss of backstab is a bit of a nerf to this kit, and I am not sure the extra pip in weapons makes up for this.
2) Human blade. This kit looks like an attempt to create a substitute for the ever popular fighter/mage. It's performance is pretty impressive at lower levels, and the combination of the various spins and spells is effective. However, it falls short of the fighter/mage combination's end stage power, since spell levels stop at 6, and you can't achieve better than 1 pip in any given weapon. The obvious compensation is that as a single class rather than a multi, advancement is a lot faster. Is this kit still viable by, say, Ch 9 of ToB? A lot might depend on bardic HLAs, if any. Do bards get such things, and if so, what are they like?
I figured I'd take each one up to Ch 3 of SoA to see which one would be the best candidate for a complete game. I even created up some similar characters in the start of ToB, to get a feel for what they might be like later on, although this isn't really as informative as actually playing them. So, I am curious what the general consensus of more experienced folks might be. Some kits look pretty straightforward, but I have some doubts about a couple of them.
Half-orc cleric of Lathander, true neutral alignment. Should be decent replacement for Anomen.
Elevn ranger/stalker. Pretty straightforward: backstab city.
Elven ranger/archer. Been reading the archer discussion, and it sounds doable with some care.
ELven druid/avenger. Not as good a tank as Jaheira, but rises and gets high level spells faster.
Dwarven fighter/defender. Big time tank; nuff said.
Human monk/soul sun. Mean with the fists, and gets some immunities; should be a reasonable sub for a fighter kit.
These all sound pretty decent. I do have some questions about:
1) Human swashbuckler, 18 Int. Took him to level 11 and was going to switch him over to mage; this plan is why he got an IQ of 18 to start with. A better thief/mage than Imoen, with traps at 100% in addition to the other thief skills. But if I wanted a thief mage, I already have Imoen and Nalia. Might be a bit redundant. So far, I have opted for keeping him a swashbuckler; if he gets to a level where he can choose HLAs, the "use any item" skill is a no brainer, and gives some strong buffs to the abilities any of the thief kits. But how useful will he be until then? The loss of backstab is a bit of a nerf to this kit, and I am not sure the extra pip in weapons makes up for this.
2) Human blade. This kit looks like an attempt to create a substitute for the ever popular fighter/mage. It's performance is pretty impressive at lower levels, and the combination of the various spins and spells is effective. However, it falls short of the fighter/mage combination's end stage power, since spell levels stop at 6, and you can't achieve better than 1 pip in any given weapon. The obvious compensation is that as a single class rather than a multi, advancement is a lot faster. Is this kit still viable by, say, Ch 9 of ToB? A lot might depend on bardic HLAs, if any. Do bards get such things, and if so, what are they like?
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Comments
Straight Swashbucklers are decent but keep in mind that they don't get Fighter thac0 or APR so they're never going to put up crazy numbers offensively. If you're planning on keeping him as a straight Swashy you might as well make yourself a Fighter->Thief dual or even a multiclass version as they'll get almost all of the upsides of the Swashy (minus the AC bonuses) and none of the downsides (except level progression I guess).
Swash->Mage however is always solid. It's almost a F/M/T without needing to split experience between three classes, and it plays differently enough from Imoen that it wouldn't be redundant to bring her along at all. BG2 Tweaks can also make this possible which is why I'm currently playing as an Elf Shapeshifter. I've never understood why they couldn't be Druids anyways, and the advantages over a Human or HE are almost nonexistent so I don't feel guilty. I was considering Dwarf instead but that seemed a bit beyond my ability to justify with my imagination.
I went with full elf on the rangers, rather than half-elf, in order to get the better resistance to charm. Is the -1 hit to Con going to be more detrimental than the anti charm benefit?
I still have the swashbuckler to mage option; I'll keep that in reserve while I check out the other prototypes.
Pikel wasn't a druid, he was a doo-dad. Totally different kit.
I remember crunching some numbers and finding that a Swashbuckler had about the same damage output as a backstabbing thief, at least in SoA. I wouldn't dual if you already have another Imoen or Nalia. The party will have some variety that way. The Swashbuckler will be very strong even without backstabs. A Swashbuckler is basically like a non-backstabbing Fighter/Thief, both in terms of skill points, AC, and damage output.
Bards get Use Any Item and Spike Traps, like thieves. Also, all bards can get the Enhanced Bard Song, replacing their normal song: +4 to hit, damage, and AC, immunity to stun and fear, +5% magic resistance, and an extra +6 to AC for the bard him or herself. They might not be as strong as a Fighter/Mage, but they have lots of options, even in ToB.
So Lathander (NG) can be LG, NG, CG or TN... Talos (CE) can now be CE, NE or CN and Helm (LN) can be any LG, LN, LE or N.
Hopefully this means that Sir Anomen should get the Holy Symbol of Helm now rather than Lathander... although I haven't actually tested this part.
He had the Helm symbol when I did ToB. You can see it in his inventory (Right hand).
I never liked Swashbucklers. Instead, I really love shadowdancer, with hide in plain sight and shadow step it plays very differently from other thieves. They have specific HLA like Shadow Twin (which is a simulacrum) and Shadow Form (like improved invisibility + 50% damage reduction). All the other thieves kit just make you more efficient at something without adding anything really novel.
Had a half-orc Kensai, but this was basically a counterpart to my berserker, except all offense and less defense. Too repetitious.
Human Kensai that I was going to dual over to mage; then I realized it was the same thing I did with Sarevok in ToB. See above comment.
Level 11 swashbuckler converted to mage. Super Imoen? Again, hardly innovative.
Half-orc Ftr/Cleric. Umm, a blue-skinned ugly Anomen? Ick!
For similar reasons I will probably retire the half orc cleric also, although she's a lot better looking than the male multi.
Tried out a dwarven defender; basically a good defensive tank but not as good as my berserker was. Being totally immune to something is better than getting great saves/reduced damage.
Elven stalker is clearly made for backstabbing, but I have never really gotten the hang of using that technique. This guy is put on hold until I figure it out better.
So, I'm still working with Half-elf Blade, Elven Archer, and half-elf Avenger.
I'm having trouble imagining the Blade as effective against high AC opponents in ToB; the THACO progression is that of a thief, and even with +4 weapons and offensive spin and 3 pips in dual wielding, it won't be all that impressive. Might be decent as a defensive tank, using defensive spin. Spells are working fine now, but the lack of anything over level 6 might be a weakness in ToB end game.
The Avenger looks fairly promising; he'll be staying in the back summoning various nasties. A bit redundant with Jaheira in the group, but if I retire her early I'll miss the whole Jaheira vs the Harpers storyline. Can't have that. I do wish the first level arcane spell had been magic missile; chromatic orb? WeaK!
Archer will need some care; with that crappy armor and using a bow, she'll need to avoid melee combat if at all possible. I foresee a lot of ducking and running if the front line tanks go down.
Don't think of Blades as front liners, even with those spins and 3* in DW. Their thac0 and HP just progress too slowly for them to be truly effective unless you cast Tenser's Transformation, in which case you can't cast spells. And that's exactly the point about this class - it's flexible. I would have him on the mid-back lines at most times, casting spells and using a crossbow maybe (assuming you're giving shortbows to the Archer). Then when you need DPS more than magic you can strap on some melee weapons, cast Tensers and jump into the fray.
The Archer's AC won't be fantastic but it's not the worst thing ever, and that character will literally eat opponents alive as long as they aren't immune to arrows. Honestly it's a fire-and-forget class, you won't have to worry about her much.
It sounds like you want to play some unconventional classes to freshen up the game, which I admire. I've also found the SCS rebalanced Shapeshifter to be a lot of fun, as well as the Blackguard paladin kit and the Cleric/Thief. My most fun run ever though was probably the Berserker(13)/Thief, 90% of the game was a complete joke to him - immune to basically everything and can chunk any backstabbable opponent in one hit. Loved it.
Chromatic Orb will be very good in your party. Archers can force any enemy to fail a save vs. spell, for a short period of time, using Called Shot. An Archer with the Tuigan Bow and Improved Haste may inflict a -20 penalty to a targey's save vs spell using a single Called Shot. Guaranteed kill with Chromatic Orb.
" My most fun run ever though was probably the Berserker(13)/Thief, 90% of the game was a complete joke to him - immune to basically everything and can chunk any backstabbable opponent in one hit. Loved it."
Straight Berserker is pretty much the same. Halfway through ToB I had a Thac0 of -15, 5 pips in halberds, 2 in THW skill, could use 6 GWWs a day and wielded Ravager +6. Pretty much nothing survived one round of greater whirlwind, and I was immune to just about anything they could throw at me. No need to hide and sneak up on something, just overpower foes with brute force.
And yeah, starting to realize that Blades are back line support troops. I can probably deal with that. The archer will get Firetooth, and that sling that makes +5 bullets for critters that are immune to fire.
As I mentioned, Avenger and Jaheira in one party will be a bit redundant, but I can retire her after the whole Harper's deal is over.
"Chromatic Orb will be very good in your party. Archers can force any enemy to fail a save vs. spell, for a short period of time, using Called Shot. An Archer with the Tuigan Bow and Improved Haste may inflict a -20 penalty to a targey's save vs spell using a single Called Shot. Guaranteed kill with Chromatic Orb."
I was complaining about chromatic orb being the Avenger druid kit's first level arcane spell, as opposed to magic missile. There won't BE an Archer in the party to force a lowered save, since I don't think there are any archer NPCs. Yeah, my Archer could do that, and have a wizard NPC follow up with chromatic orb, but that would be a totally separate group.
Bracers AC3 bring her AC to -2, which skyrockets with defensive spin. This can allow her to block an arch/doorway if needed, while everyone else fires missiles/spells over her head ... or runs away if things start going south. Switching to offensive spin then provides basically a haste spell for escape purposes once everyone else is clear. You don't HAVE to use the spin to attack just because the name has the word "offensive" in it.
All I really need now is the +2 elvin chain mail, which lets you cast while wearing armor, but that won't be available for quite a while, unfortunately.
When you combine a decent armor class with stoneskin and mirror image your bard will be even better protected than armored fighters and can be quite effective in frontline.