Can a thief ever really be "lawful"?

SharGuidesMyHand

It's always confused me as to why a thief is prohibited from being lawful good, but can still choose the other lawful alignments.

Why is only LG prohibited? If the argument is that thievery, by its very definition, is unlawful, then shouldn't the other lawful alignments be prohibited as well?

Also, how exactly does one play as a LN or LE thief?

Francois

The thing is thievery, assassination, etc are not necessarily unlawful. For example a government agent can use those skills lawfully when used against an enemy. These action can often break the law and they can often harm people. Therefore a LN can justify the harm by saying he's doing in a lawful service to his lord, while a CG guy could say he breaks the law, but only steals from those who won't miss it or who deserve it. A Truly LG would have more problems justifying his action, since he is trying to uphold both good and order at the same time.

A spy who is completely devoted to his master is an exemple of LN thief. The same could be LE if he enjoys the harm he his doing.

abacus

This is one of the reasons I prefer the "Rogue" designation of later editions... Thievery in the game is a skill set... One's alignment dictates how you apply those skills.

Francois

However, I think ''rogue'' has an even more unlawful connotation. I can't think of a good general name that would cover every possibility of the class.

spacejaws

Well if you consider the kits a bounty hunter could
Be considered lawful right?

Otherwise you could consider a thief more of a tinkerer who is skilled at traps and stealth which are helpful adventuring skills that don't always result in theft or law breaking. Right?

scriver

Another thing is that organised crime is often considered "lawful" in DnD, particularly if it holds itself to a set of internal rules, codes, or laws for how to treat others in the business. The Shadow Thieves of Amn is such an example of a Lawful Evil organisation.

But the real, non-game-justification reason thieves can't be LG is really Gary Gygax and his biases. He had a very boxy view of alignments and how they were supposed to be implemented. LG was supposed to be the Most Goodiest and Honourablest of alignments, and thus a character who was defined by such lowly actions as picking locks or pick-pocketing could never be both lawful and good at the same time. It doesn't make much sense, really, and that was the reason it was eventually changed (and probably house-ruled away by most players long before 3rd Ed).

Dungeonnoob

Play it as Robin Hood,with a big smile,few nifty comment´s and a big loot bag.(LN)Lawful neutral,right?

[Deleted User]

*Sees a conversation involving the Lawful/Chaotic axis of the alignment scale*

*Gets a bowl of popcorn*

More seriously, to expand on what Francois is saying, if we the case of a government agent working to uphold a Good or Lawful government and who has explicit sanction from their lord to break laws in the line of duty, you can still make the argument that being Lawful Good is very difficult for someone in that position. Your actions run counter to the principles of a just and benevolent society, and arguably undermine the social trust that such a society relies on. C.f. the Operative from Serenity.

That said, I think the lawful/chaotic alignment axis has mostly been bollocks'ed into irrelevance by inconsistent implementation, so I generally just houserule it.

DragonKing

Just steal from the bandits and give to the town guards

BillyYank

DragonKing said:

Just steal from the bandits and give to the town guards

...and hope you can tell the difference.

Skatan

I prefer "rogue" more than "thief", but I also like the class name "scoundrel" from KotOR (though it feels more chaotic than lawful).

Generally, I agree with @francois interpretation, but I think in theory you could be both lawful and good at the same time. I know it can be difficult to compare with non-DnD characters but James Bond is an agent, lawful towards his organization and the good in the eyes of society (he doesn't really hurt anyone other than bad people and tend to want to save others) yet still he is kinda like a rogueish character.

PK2748

Most interpretations I've seen put Bond more in the Lawful Neutral camp. He doesn't care about the morality of his actions. He does the job. I think a proper military scout or a bounty hunter could very easily be Lawful Good and there are plenty of races that can't be Rangers and still need military scouts or bounty hunters. Or dwarven trap smiths. You can give any character any motivation you want. Hell in Second Edition you could be a Lawful Good Necromancer so why not thief?

Mathsorcerer

There are security companies who specialize in being contracted to break in to places; any organization like this would have "lawful" thieves on its payroll or its personnel could be considered to be lawful-aligned thieves. As noted, spies could have lawful alignments even though their skill sets include things like "picking locks", "setting traps", or "poisoning weapons/food/drinks". It all depends upon how the skills are being used.

As a completely different character concept, consider a former fighter who has dual-classes over to thief and now operates as a private detective. His fighter skills allow him to handle himself in rough company and his thief skills give him the ability to snoop around as he has been lawfully contracted to do. It may be a dirty job but it is still a lawful job.

moody_mage

Agree with @Mathsorcerer.

AD&D thieves are pigeonholed into acting in an unlawful manner and using their skills to break laws. However a thief adventurer can use his skills - especially locks/traps etc in a lawful manner. There is nothing unlawful about picking a lock in an abandoned ruin or locating and disarming traps. Pickpockets can be used for sleight of hand and moving silently and hiding are not inherently unlawful activities.

It's the intent on how these skills are used which should determine alignment, not simply possessing these skills.

[Deleted User]

The user and all related content has been deleted.

Calmar

I liked to have a dwarf 'engineer' who focused on the mechanical aspects of the thief class (finding and disabling traps, opening doors...).