Can we get NPCs' proficiencies imported, taking into account SoD and a patch for BG2EE?

JuliusBorisov

I think this can be a good idea in terms of making even better transition between BG1EE, SoD and BG2EE.

Maybe it's worth to make so that if you import your save from SoD to BG2EE, the game will remeber which proficiencies your NPCs had. Of course, only those of them who can be party members both in SoD and BG2EE.

Maybe you put 2 pips into scimitars for Jaheira during BG1EE and SoD? Or put 2 points into dual-wielding for Dorn? Or gave Minsc proficiency in hammers for dual-wielding maces and hammers?

If you finish SoD with them, then when you meet them in BG2EE they will have those proficiencies. To me, it would be cool.

Vallmyr

I think this and adding any stat changed would be cool. Would be awesome to give Viconia all the wisdom tomes in BG1 and have the stat carry over to BG2. I could just EEkeeper this but anything added to the base game would be great.

JuliusBorisov

With the stats it's another story because BG2 NPCs have different stats if compared to BG1 (so, an argument of giving tomes to an NPC can be countered by the fact BG2 NPCs have higher stats). But I think that keeping the NPCs' proficiencies doesn't violate anything.

Dee

I could be mistaken, but I believe the technical aspects of this would make it an all-or-nothing proposition; either you import the characters as-is, with ability scores and proficiencies carried over, or you don't import them at all.

It's an interesting idea, though.

JuliusBorisov

Dee said:

I could be mistaken, but I believe the technical aspects of this would make it an all-or-nothing proposition; either you import the characters as-is, with ability scores and proficiencies carried over, or you don't import them at all.

It's an interesting idea, though.

@Dee Then I vote for making it fully "as-is". It would add greatly to the continuity between BG1 and BG2. Adding a weapon transfer, creating SoD. I think, the proposition in this tread is in the same line.

helmo1977

I havent seen any request in this sense, but there is a good number of people in the SoD subforum that would like it (me included, of course). I would like to see the NPCs of my SoD party start BG 2 with the same levels and proficiencies I made them in SoD, just as nowadays the PC starts with the levels and proficiencies we gave him/her during BG 1 (and just as NPCs will start SoD with the same levels and proficiencies you gave them in BG 1)

If the NPCs could start with you at Irenicus dungeon it would be even better, but I guess this last part is too much.

Dee

That last part would require story changes, so it's a little beyond scope.

The first part might be technically possible, but the trade-off is that you end up missing out on the ability score boosts that most of the NPCs receive in the transition to BG2. Would you be okay with Jaheira not getting those three extra points in Dexterity that improve her AC and ranged THAC0? Would you be okay with Viconia not getting three extra points in Wisdom and the bonus spells they grant?

Or would you rather see it go the other way, and migrate the ability boosts back to BG1? That has balance and design implications as well. (For a little perspective: The Enhanced Edition adds kits to BG1, but those are things that the player can use or not use at their option. If we universally increase the stats of an NPC in BG1, that automatically makes the game easier for anyone who recruits that character into their party.)

JuliusBorisov

Dee said:

The first part might be technically possible, but the trade-off is that you end up missing out on the ability score boosts that most of the NPCs receive in the transition to BG2. Would you be okay with Jaheira not getting those three extra points in Dexterity that improve her AC and ranged THAC0? Would you be okay with Viconia not getting three extra points in Wisdom and the bonus spells they grant?

I would be absolutely ok with that, even more so, as I've explained here: https://forums.beamdog.com/discussion/comment/712026/#Comment_712026

When BG2 was released it was awesome that we could import the main character and thus get some continuity between playing two separate games. With the EEs, this continuity improved, so that we could now import a weapon and the imported save now remembered your BGEE's romances.

I look at SoD - a completely new storyline in the base Baldur's Gate adventure, as at an option to further unite two games into one big story. The fact that SoD will answer why Imoen got her second class tells me about it. We'll see what happens during the year between BG1 and BG2, there will be nothing unknown left.

After SoD, the import between BGEE-SoD-BG2EE should become as smooth as possible. And of course, it means that not only main character should be importable into BG2, but also those BG1/SoD NPCs who can be met in BG2EE. Just like we can import NPCs "as they are" from BGEE to SoD, or from BG2 to ToB.

The fact that there will be no unknown time between BG1 and BG2 left should make, to me, the import process between BGEE+SoD and BG2EE similar to what we experience between SoA and ToB.

Although vanilla BG2 improve several stats of BG1 NPCs (Minsc gets +1 to both DEX and CON, Jaheira gets +3 to DEX, Viconia gets +3 to WIS, Edwin gets +1 to STR and WIS), with the release of SoD, to me, the import system should work so that if you continue to play BG2EE with NPCs you had at the end of SoD, these NPCs should have exactly those stats they had in SoD, and exatly those proficiencies and skills/spells you chose for them in BGEE+SoD.

So if your Minsc with whom you went through BGEE+SoD had 15 DEX and 15 CON but in the same time was specialized in hammers, Minsc you meet at the start of BG2EE should have the same 15 DEX and 15 CON and 2 pips in hammers.

If you gave Dorn a DEX tome and 2 pips in longbows in BGEE+SoD, you should meet him with 17, not 16, DEX and 2 pips in longbows in BG2EE, even if it would mean that Jaheira, whom you too had in your BGEE+SoD party, will have only 14, and not 17, DEX in BG2EE.

Dee

The counterpoint to that, though, is that you inadvertently penalize players who import from BG:EE/SoD because those NPCs are statistically worse than they'd be if you hadn't imported. You want the import to be preferable, not a compromise.

JuliusBorisov

Not all BG1EE NPCs get boosts in BG2EE - all EE NPCs don't. And Rasaad, Dorn and Neera can be much stronger with tomes from BG1EE.

As for those who, as you say, are statistically worse, I don't think they're worse this way. Stats can be improved with items and spells in BG2, but you can't change proficiencies in-game. You could invest pips into two-weapon fighting style for Jaheira in BG1 at levels 3 and 6, and voila - you get dual-wielding warrior with Ironskins in BG2. And if you have vanilla BG2 Jaheira, you can't dualwield without penalties until much longer in the game.

Moreover, you actually can improve stats of importing NPCs this way: for example, give Dorn a DEX and/or a CON tome, give Edwin an INT tome, give Minsc a STR tome. Nobody blocks you from giving Viconia 3 WIS tomes, or DEX and CON tomes to Minsc.

Also, the developers (if possible) can make it so that if NPCs weren't in the player's party at the end of SoD, the versions of BG1 NPCs available in BG2EE are vanilla ones.

Dee

bengoshi said:

Also, the developers (if possible) can make it so that if NPCs weren't in the player's party at the end of SoD, the versions of BG1 NPCs available in BG2EE are vanilla ones.

This is the piece I'm referring to. If non-imported characters get a bonus that the imported characters don't get, that gives an advantage to the non-imported player.

Don't get me wrong, I agree that it would be a boon to be able to bring over the proficiencies from BG1 into BG2. But the discrepancy in stats between BG1 NPCs and their BG2 counterparts isn't insignificant. At least one character in BG2 has stats that you couldn't achieve with tomes in BG1.

JuliusBorisov

The fact that you think it gives an advantage to the non-imported player, and I think it gives a disadvantage (illustration is in my previous post, i'll try to say in other words: 3 points of DEX to Jaheira, to me, are worse than her not getting pips because there's an item to set DEX to 18 in BG2, but as a multiclass she progresses very slowly in BG2, thus getting proficiencies for her cannot be done quickly and it may seriously limit the player, for example, if he developed TWF style for her) - this fact is, to me, a confirmation that it's neither an advantage nor a disadvantage - it's just a different situation, with its cons and pros. And all my idea was that this different situation can be a part of the improved continuity in the EEs.

Should I understand that your 2 last posts here is a "No" to this request, at least for now (in the wake of a SoD-related BG2EE patch)?

helmo1977

Dee said:

The counterpoint to that, though, is that you inadvertently penalize players who import from BG:EE/SoD because those NPCs are statistically worse than they'd be if you hadn't imported. You want the import to be preferable, not a compromise.

On the other hand, they MIGHT have their key stats enhanced thanks to the stats raise Tomes in BG 1 (example, Viconia can start with +3 WIS in BG 2 with Tomes. Edwin with +1 INT, and so on). And, as most people plan well in advance the "development path" for their NPCs (regarding proficiencies and multi/dual class) you end with some NPCs (not others, example: Dorn, Neera...) which lose one or two points here and there, but with mor points in key stats and with a progression in proficiencies (most people make their NPCs specialize in a given weapon or two and/or dual wield) and muti/dual class that more than makes for losing a few points in dex or con.

Concluding, I dont think you penalize them. You simply change some "goodies" for others.

Dee

bengoshi said:

The fact that you think it gives an advantage to the non-imported player, and I think it gives a disadvantage (illustration is in my previous post, i'll try to say in other words: 3 points of DEX to Jaheira, to me, are worse than her not getting pips because there's an item to set DEX to 18 in BG2, but as a multiclass she progresses very slowly in BG2, thus getting proficiencies for her cannot be done quickly and it may seriously limit the player, for example, if he developed TWF style for her) - this fact is, to me, a confirmation that it's neither an advantage nor a disadvantage - it's just a different situation, with its cons and pros. And all my idea was that this different situation can be a part of the improved continuity in the EEs.

Should I understand that your 2 last posts here is a "No" to this request, at least for now (in the wake of a SoD-related BG2EE patch)?

Don't take it as a no, I'm just trying to illuminate the full picture. Getting all the proficiencies to transfer is a good thing; getting the effects of the tomes to transfer is also a good thing. Losing the baseline stat increases is a bad thing.

Folks should know what they're asking for, is all. You might see three points of Dexterity as an acceptable loss, but someone else might be relying on those points for their success in BG2.

Dee

helmo1977 said:

Dee said:

The counterpoint to that, though, is that you inadvertently penalize players who import from BG:EE/SoD because those NPCs are statistically worse than they'd be if you hadn't imported. You want the import to be preferable, not a compromise.

On the other hand, they MIGHT have their key stats enhanced thanks to the stats raise Tomes in BG 1 (example, Viconia can start with +3 WIS in BG 2 with Tomes. Edwin with +1 INT, and so on). And, as most people plan well in advance the "development path" for their NPCs (regarding proficiencies and multi/dual class) you end with some NPCs (not others, example: Dorn, Neera...) which lose one or two points here and there, but with mor points in key stats and with a progression in proficiencies (most people make their NPCs specialize in a given weapon or two and/or dual wield) and muti/dual class that more than makes for losing a few points in dex or con.

Concluding, I dont think you penalize them. You simply change some "goodies" for others.

Jaheira's the best example of a character for whom that isn't the case. There's only one Dexterity tome in BG1; ergo, if you imported her as-is, there's no scenario where she'd end up with the same stats that she's been given in BG2.

helmo1977

There could be an option to import or not to import your NPCs? That way everybody would be happy. Players could choose between the stat boost or all the other things.

PS. Besides, I can think of just one NPC which would really lose some important stat boosts (Jaheira. Viconia and Minse can both make for it with the Tomes in BG 1)

Dee

It's also worth noting that this makes the assumption that the player will use all of the tomes on the BG2 NPCs, rather than their protagonist. A number of players use all of the tomes on their main character specifically because they know the stats in BG2 won't be carried over; if that behavior changes, those players either need to adjust their strategy or not import their party.

And yes, making it optional would potentially solve that problem. But the decision to use that option means sacrificing bonuses that you'd otherwise be guaranteed.

If the BG2 stats were backported to BG1, on the other hand, this would be a more obvious solution. But that potentially adds similar problems to the BG1 experience. (Suddenly you could import Viconia to BG2 with a Wisdom of 21, when she started out in vanilla BG1 with a wisdom of 15! Yikes!)

helmo1977

On the other hand, people rarely complain (even less in a crpg) when you boost their stats

JuliusBorisov

@Dee Actually, I don't think that backporting BG2 NPC stats to BG1 will be a problem from the community point of view, because there're already a lot of things that make BG1EE "easier", if compared to vanilla BG1, for example, kits - take a blackguard, or an assassin, with their poison, or a sorcerer. Another example - additional items and XP from new companions' quests. There were some players who didn't like these additions, but the general reception was positive, I guess.

And, by the way, having 21 WIS on Viconia is not OP, because right now you can have 21 WIS on the main character thanks to tomes.

If implementing my request means such a backporting, I'm voting for it. The key thing here is continuity, so that 2 games together, and with SoD between them, felt more like one whole adventure.

AstroBryGuy

Eh... I guess I don't see much point in fretting about the continuity of proficiency pips when you can run Imoen through with a sword on the Lion's Way and she'll still rescue you and be your McGuffin loyal little sister in BG2.

IchigoRXC

Dee said:

Jaheira's the best example of a character for whom that isn't the case. There's only one Dexterity tome in BG1; ergo, if you imported her as-is, there's no scenario where she'd end up with the same stats that she's been given in BG2.

Unless if there was some way to increase her stats in SoD which would then solve that issue. Maybe an event if she is in the party (harper agents) or perhaps she got the bonus when she went back to report on you (if she is not in your party during SoD).

chilvence

I always found it a terrible shame that BG2 basically threw away the party you had at the end of BG1 and forced Imoen, Minsc and Jaheira on you, with changed stats, portraits, even seemingly different voice actors.

It's not because they are bad characters, I actually like them, but because it destroyed the illusion of choice. I can't even remember the first party I completed BG1 with, but damnit I got invested in those characters, and BG2 stomped on them. I got over it of course, but what if I actually wanted to have Tiax with me in BG2?

I realise it would not be a trivial thing to change, but if this were ever to be considered at all, my vote would be to go all out for the 'don't mess with the BG1 party in any way whatsoever' option, because I hate breaks in continuity.

I don't expect it to happen officially, but maybe a mod could tackle it.

AstroBryGuy

chilvence wrote: »

I always found it a terrible shame that BG2 basically threw away the party you had at the end of BG1 and forced Imoen, Minsc and Jaheira on you, with changed stats, portraits, even seemingly different voice actors.

Huh? BG2 used the same voice actors for Minsc, Imoen, and Jaheira as BG1 (Jim Cummings, Melissa Disney, and Heidi Shannon, respectively).