SoD Effects on BG2EE

dr_muds

I was wondering if anyone knew what effects the SoD expansion will have on BG2EE?

I expect there will be a patch adding the new Shaman class and relevant spells to both the BG games, but of more interest to me is the potential for an enhanced XP cap. Lets say you can reach the 200-300k mark (or who knows more) in the expansion, will this be ported over when you export your protagonist into BG2EE?

I certainly hope that this is the case, as this could potentially make it easier to dual class at higher levels (for example swaying the fighter dual class debate from level 9 to level 13 etc).

SionIV

dr_muds said:

I was wondering if anyone knew what effects the SoD expansion will have on BG2EE?

I expect there will be a patch adding the new Shaman class and relevant spells to both the BG games, but of more interest to me is the potential for an enhanced XP cap. Lets say you can reach the 200-300k mark (or who knows more) in the expansion, will this be ported over when you export your protagonist into BG2EE?

I certainly hope that this is the case, as this could potentially make it easier to dual class at higher levels (for example swaying the fighter dual class debate from level 9 to level 13 etc).

They have been talking about increasing the difficulty at the start to make up for the additional levels. The question is what happens to the people that did not play through SoD, is the difficulty increase something you can turn on and off, or always there?

I haven't followed SoD for a couple of months, so this might have changed.

dr_muds

@SionIV Thanks for that. Any idea what the new XP cap might be?

I personally don't mind if its a little easy at the start anyway... I see it as a bonus for buying SoD! I have no qualms with there being extra levels, I actually welcome it. Its the first time I am going to dual class a character after having an original 1998 BG playthrough with a Paladin, trying a vanilla Monk and Sorcerer in the original BG2, and having run through most of BGEE slowly with a Kensai. My play has seriously slowing down and I made myself distracted with IWDEE when SoD was announced, so that I can install it while I am still playing my BGEE game.

I, of course, intend to dual class to mage or thief at some point, having dualled a Berzerker and a vanilla Fighter at level 9 in IWDEE. For me, the added bonus of extra XP means that I may well consider dualling at level 13 now, as the time to get to the point where you've levelled up sufficiently in your new class will be seriously reduced in SoA. This means that I can truly powerplay while still having a full 6-person party which I always do for role-play reasons and storyline enjoyment.

Gallowglass

dr_muds said:

@SionIV Thanks for that. Any idea what the new XP cap might be?

The devs have confirmed that Thieves (and therefore also Bards and Druids) will be able to reach level 12 in SoD, but that no class will be able to reach level 13.

This means that it's confirmed that the new XP cap must be at least 440,000 but less than 660,000.

The general assumption in discussions in the forum is that it'll be roughly 500,000. (My own guess is that it'll be just sufficient for Thieves to reach level 12 , so I reckon around 450,000.)

dr_muds

Thanks @Gallowglass that's very interesting info, as it majorly affects popular dual class combinations in BG2. You could quite feasibly complete a full level 9 fighter/kensai/berserker dual class to level 9/10 meaning that the protagonist could enter irenicus's dungeon with both class' abilities and powerful indeed - although this would mean siege of dragonspear would mainly be spent as a training adventure for a new Mage/thief/priest.

There would also be an effect on dualclassable NPC's in BGEE who may carry over into SoD such as Imoen, Shar Teel & Xzar, meaning quite powerful NPC abilities as you are not forced to dual class for the 161k XP limit.

Clearly entering the beginning of BG2 with 500k XP Is going to be a huge bonus, so I can understand why they want to introduce an increased difficulty. But I hoped that the XP value of enemies increases then as well as there would be a sudden drop in level advancement from SoD into BG2EE otherwise and one would spend a while getting to the next XP level.

SionIV

dr_muds said:

Thanks @Gallowglass that's very interesting info, as it majorly affects popular dual class combinations in BG2. You could quite feasibly complete a full level 9 fighter/kensai/berserker dual class to level 9/10 meaning that the protagonist could enter irenicus's dungeon with both class' abilities and powerful indeed - although this would mean siege of dragonspear would mainly be spent as a training adventure for a new Mage/thief/priest.

There would also be an effect on dualclassable NPC's in BGEE who may carry over into SoD such as Imoen, Shar Teel & Xzar, meaning quite powerful NPC abilities as you are not forced to dual class for the 161k XP limit.

Clearly entering the beginning of BG2 with 500k XP Is going to be a huge bonus, so I can understand why they want to introduce an increased difficulty. But I hoped that the XP value of enemies increases then as well as there would be a sudden drop in level advancement from SoD into BG2EE otherwise and one would spend a while getting to the next XP level.

I doubt they will increase the experience gained from enemies in BG2:EE, or they would have to revamp the difficulty of the entire game, not just the start.

dr_muds

The other thing to consider is if and how the XP level of the starting and later joining NPCs scale up to your more powerful protagonist. You've got the potential to be far and beyond the level of that other great NPC you encounter in TOB (not mentioning any names in case anyone who doesn't know or hasn't played it is reading) which may have a major effect on gameplay.

They may even decide to go down the Planescape Torment route where the protagonist gains much greater XP and levels than his team, and so keep current BG2 NPC levels the same.

Paareth

They could go the route of allowing it to raise, then lowering it for BG2. I know this isn't ideal as its artificial and I can already tell it'll receive mixed reactions, but it might be a nice option box for those who want it.

Otherwise I think progression is going to be gear based, and do the same thing anyway, which imho isn't bad its just a way of working around it.

Might even have an item that gives people extra levels, till its taken from them

Lifat

Honestly, a few levels will certainly make the start of bg2:ee a bit easier, but in the long run the difference in XP will be next to meaningless.
And honestly, the start of bg2:ee is already extremely easy.

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Gallowglass

Lifat said:

Honestly, a few levels will certainly make the start of bg2:ee a bit easier, but in the long run the difference in XP will be next to meaningless.

I disagree.

Firstly, that extra couple of levels will probably persist all the way through SoA (if you're in the habit of leaving most of WK until ToB, as I believe most of us are and which I reckon is the "natural" route because WK wasn't originally available at all in SoA). That'll make all of SoA a little easier, not just make the beginning very easy. The extra level or two won't be "drowned out in the noise" until you get to WK and ToB.

Secondly, starting higher affects which version(s) of the recruitable NPCs you'll meet. In some cases that probably won't make a deal of difference, but in other cases it'll cause fairly significant changes such as auto-allocating them additional weapon proficiencies which are not what you'd have chosen for them if you could have recruited a lower-level version, and that can restrict your choices about how (or even whether) to use those characters for the rest of the game.

Lifat said:

And honestly, the start of bg2:ee is already extremely easy.

If you're an experienced player who knows what to expect and how to handle it, yes. If you're new to it, no.

Elendar

Who still plays through the first dungeon anyways? Dungeon B Gone 4 teh win

Fardragon

Watchers Keep was always accessible befor starting ToB.

dr_muds

Fardragon said:

Watchers Keep was always accessible befor starting ToB.

True, if you have both installed (as in BG2EE). However what @Gallowglass is referring to is that originally there was only Shadows of Amn, so for those who completed the original BG2 Watcher's Keep only became available when Throne of Bhaal was released. Hence, the natural time to play Watcher's Keep is following the events of the original BG2 Shadows of Amn.

I personally hope that they keep the extra XP gained in SoD. If, as rumoured, the XP cap will be around 500k that is a HUGE advantage, particularly as having previously played vanilla BG2 starting with a new monk or sorcerer I have always started with 79k XP and not received the benefits of importing a character from BG1.

For a dual class this has a major impact. As someone who plays a 6 man party and wanting to try a Kensai dual class, this makes a difference between changing at level 9 or 13. Previously level 9 was the only viable alternative without receiving your full abilities near the end of the game. With a 400k XP boost it just makes it quicker to get to level 13 Kensai, to dual class earlier in the game and to receive your original abilities that little bit earlier.

Faydark

Elendar said:

Who still plays through the first dungeon anyways? Dungeon B Gone 4 teh win

/me holds up hand! I have never installed Dungeon B gone mods. It's part of the game, I play it =D.

Lifat

Gallowglass said:

Lifat said:

Honestly, a few levels will certainly make the start of bg2:ee a bit easier, but in the long run the difference in XP will be next to meaningless.

I disagree.

Firstly, that extra couple of levels will probably persist all the way through SoA (if you're in the habit of leaving most of WK until ToB, as I believe most of us are and which I reckon is the "natural" route because WK wasn't originally available at all in SoA). That'll make all of SoA a little easier, not just make the beginning very easy. The extra level or two won't be "drowned out in the noise" until you get to WK and ToB.

Secondly, starting higher affects which version(s) of the recruitable NPCs you'll meet. In some cases that probably won't make a deal of difference, but in other cases it'll cause fairly significant changes such as auto-allocating them additional weapon proficiencies which are not what you'd have chosen for them if you could have recruited a lower-level version, and that can restrict your choices about how (or even whether) to use those characters for the rest of the game.

Lifat said:

And honestly, the start of bg2:ee is already extremely easy.

If you're an experienced player who knows what to expect and how to handle it, yes. If you're new to it, no.

The truth is, that we still don't know what they mean when they say that the lvl cap is 12... The classes have wildly different xp tables, ranging from 300k to 1200k xp needed for lvl 12. If they are going to raise the cap to 1200k xp, then obviously the difference in SoA will be huge, and should probably be looked at.

But assuming 260k (or 120k if only the druids can reach 12th lvl) extra xp, which would put thieves/bards and druids at lvl 12 here is how it looks for the different classes:

Fighters/barbarians: From the moment they become lvl 9 and up, they need 250k per lvl, which means that the XP difference means +1 lvl after a short while.

Paladins/rangers: From the moment they become lvl 9 and up, they need 300k per lvl, which means that the XP difference is less than a lvl after a short while.

Thieves/bards: From the moment they become lvl 11 and up, they need 220k per lvl, which means that the XP difference is slightly more than +1 lvl after a short while. (Fun fact, the very last lvl 39 to 40 requires 1620k xp for some reason)

Mages/Sorcerers: From the moment they become lvl 11 and up, they need 375k per lvl, which means that the XP difference is roughly 2/3's of a lvl after a short while.

Clerics/Monks: From the moment they become lvl 9 and up, they need 225k per lvl, which means that the difference is roughly +1 lvl after a short while. (Fun fact, the very last lvl 39 to 40 requires 1025k xp for some reason)

Druids: Are all over the place, but the xp difference is unlikely to make much of a difference, because to go from lvl 14 to 15, you need 1500k xp extra, for a total of 3 million xp.
(Also... Going from lvl 12-15 is an absolute nightmare as a druid)

Now, I will grant you that the xp difference that I assumed is speculative and guess work, but I do think I've shown that the difference could potentially be quite small fairly quickly depending on where they set the XP cap.

Sidenote:
If they set the XP cap at 300k XP, then it is just enough for every class to gain a single extra lvl (except for druid that gets 2) when compared to the 181k XP cap, so I have to admit that I think it is likely that this will be the cap. If that is the case, the difference in XP will be at worst a single lvl in the start of SoA and eventually be such a little difference that it wont really matter.

Gallowglass

Lifat said:

The truth is, that we still don't know what they mean when they say that the lvl cap is 12... The classes have wildly different xp tables, ranging from 300k to 1200k xp needed for lvl 12.

The devs have been more specific than you seem to realise. They have specifically confirmed (in this forum, although I can't now remember where) that Thieves will be able to reach level 12 (and therefore also Bards and Druids) but that no class will be able to reach more than level 12.

This means that the XP cap for SoD is known to be at least 440K but less than 660K.

Lifat

Gallowglass said:

Lifat said:

The truth is, that we still don't know what they mean when they say that the lvl cap is 12... The classes have wildly different xp tables, ranging from 300k to 1200k xp needed for lvl 12.

The devs have been more specific than you seem to realise. They have specifically confirmed (in this forum, although I can't now remember where) that Thieves will be able to reach level 12 (and therefore also Bards and Druids) but that no class will be able to reach more than level 12.

This means that the XP cap for SoD is known to be at least 440K but less than 660K.

You are right. I was unaware of this.
But my comparison was made using 440k XP cap, so my point still stands. With those numbers, my guess is that it is probably going to be 500k XP cap. Doesn't really change that much about what I was saying.

helmo1977

SionIV said:

dr_muds said:

Thanks @Gallowglass that's very interesting info, as it majorly affects popular dual class combinations in BG2. You could quite feasibly complete a full level 9 fighter/kensai/berserker dual class to level 9/10 meaning that the protagonist could enter irenicus's dungeon with both class' abilities and powerful indeed - although this would mean siege of dragonspear would mainly be spent as a training adventure for a new Mage/thief/priest.

There would also be an effect on dualclassable NPC's in BGEE who may carry over into SoD such as Imoen, Shar Teel & Xzar, meaning quite powerful NPC abilities as you are not forced to dual class for the 161k XP limit.

Clearly entering the beginning of BG2 with 500k XP Is going to be a huge bonus, so I can understand why they want to introduce an increased difficulty. But I hoped that the XP value of enemies increases then as well as there would be a sudden drop in level advancement from SoD into BG2EE otherwise and one would spend a while getting to the next XP level.

I doubt they will increase the experience gained from enemies in BG2:EE, or they would have to revamp the difficulty of the entire game, not just the start.

It would be enough to simply reduce the XP you are given during the firsts chapters quests of BG 2. That way you would soon be at the level you are suppoused to be for BG 2, even if the beginning was easier, altough that might be solved giving you thougher or more enemies at BG 2 begining.

Faydark

They can't really alter BG2 too much, because there will be four ways of starting a character into BG2:EE once SoD is out:
1) Brand new character created in BG2:EE: 89k XP
2) Import from BG1 (vanilla): 89k XP
3) Import from BG1:EE or BG1 (vanilla) with TotSC: 161k XP
4) Import from BG1:EE with SoD: XXXk XP

If they do as you suggest helmo then people doing options 1 - 3 will probably struggle too much later in the game due to the missing XP etc.

I think the best bet is probably what they've already said they'll be doing: a pass over the game to make sure that it's still fun and balanced, relying on the existing encounter scaling with some tweaks.

Edit: Added BG2:EE starting XP, thanks @bengoshi

JuliusBorisov

@Faydark You start with 89k XP in BG2/BG2EE with a new (not imported) character.

kcwise

If you have a BG2EE plan which requires not gaining too much XP then you could skip some of the BGEE content, like Durlag's Tower or the Werewolf Island, so SoD won't raise your PC too far.

James_M

To keep the BG2 experience intact, I hope they only add a few xp's (like 150k) to SoD so that multi-class chars will gain +1 level only. I hope they err on the side of "slightly more difficult" rather than an easier start in the beginning of BG2 to give a bit more sense of accomplishment.

Please don't enable the importing of even more weapons into BG2! E.g. starting out with Ashideena, or even the Sling +3 (where even +3 damage = a major boost in total damage!), is quite sick as it stands already!

But I definitely applaud the efforts by Beamdog! Here, here to Siege of Dragonspear!

Gallowglass

James_M said:

To keep the BG2 experience intact, I hope they only add a few xp's (like 150k) to SoD ...

It's going to be 2-3 times that much, unfortunately.

The devs have confirmed that Thieves (and therefore also Bards and Druids) will be able to reach level 12 (but not 13) in SoD, so the XP cap is at least 440K but less than 660K, i.e. between 279K and 499K more than before. I'd guess near the lower end of that range, but we don't know exactly.

James_M said:

Please don't enable the importing of even more weapons into BG2!

I agree. Since the changes in the v1.3 patch, there are already plenty of importable weapons and they're amply powerful.

On the other hand, there may be room for expanding the choice of importable armours and miscellaneous items. I particularly hope that @Amber_Scott's Bard Hat will be importable to BG2ee.

[Deleted User]

Or if not importable, then findable in a shop or an early quest.

sarevok57

in my opinion I think SoD is going to alter how SoA is, way too much, the huge XP boost at the beginning will dramatically shift the difficulty down, my guess is that they are going to incorporate a "nightmare" mode setting, which is already in the works, which is just "heart of fury mode" for bg2, but to me this is just lazy, I find HoF mode in IWD even boring as balls, just because you give enemies a million HP doesn't always necessarily make it more difficult, and this is BG not IWD I feel that there is too much stuff being added to the bgee series and its making me feel like this is less a bg game, and more of a Frankenstein put together, I like to think of myself as a purist, I have played these games ever since they came out, and the only mods that I ever installed where fixed proficiency tables for fighters in bg2 and original harder demogorgon other than that, nothing I would have been more pleased if they made their own stand alone game then add a very peculiar expansion to bg1, if anything ToB needs the expansion, the time you finish ToB, you will probably only be around 6 million XP, so there is tons of room for add ons there, but instead they place it before SoA? I find that odd, but anyways, if people think SoD is going to be great and cant wait to get it, then by all means, be excited for it, for me, I very much doubt I will be getting it, im almost getting to the point where I just want to go back to my vanilla games in all their pixelated glory, but if beamdog comes up with new rpg games, then by all means I would love to give them a try, but until then, nah

Vitor

sarevok57 said:

in my opinion I think SoD is going to alter how SoA is, way too much, the huge XP boost at the beginning will dramatically shift the difficulty down, my guess is that they are going to incorporate a "nightmare" mode setting, which is already in the works, which is just "heart of fury mode" for bg2, but to me this is just lazy, I find HoF mode in IWD even boring as balls, just because you give enemies a million HP doesn't always necessarily make it more difficult, and this is BG not IWD I feel that there is too much stuff being added to the bgee series and its making me feel like this is less a bg game, and more of a Frankenstein put together, I like to think of myself as a purist, I have played these games ever since they came out, and the only mods that I ever installed where fixed proficiency tables for fighters in bg2 and original harder demogorgon other than that, nothing I would have been more pleased if they made their own stand alone game then add a very peculiar expansion to bg1, if anything ToB needs the expansion, the time you finish ToB, you will probably only be around 6 million XP, so there is tons of room for add ons there, but instead they place it before SoA? I find that odd, but anyways, if people think SoD is going to be great and cant wait to get it, then by all means, be excited for it, for me, I very much doubt I will be getting it, im almost getting to the point where I just want to go back to my vanilla games in all their pixelated glory, but if beamdog comes up with new rpg games, then by all means I would love to give them a try, but until then, nah

I don't think this is necessary.

AD&D 2nd Editions demands an absurd amount of XP to level up after 7th level. So, Baldur's Gate II gives a lot of "free" XP, so you can keep increasing levels at an unnatural rate. Completing quests in BG1 gives you 500 xp, 800xp, while quests in Shadows of Amn 50.000 XP or even more. If they keep the XP rewarding logic of BG1 for quests, I'm sure you can't capitalize nearly as close as much XP as you get in BG2.

Also, initiating Shadows of Amn on level 10, 11 or 12 doesn't change so much your power, since your deprived of your precious items.

[Deleted User]

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Lifat

Look, what it all comes down to is this:
You don't have to pre-order it if you have doubts about this expansion and it's effects on BG2. In fact, seeing how many times gamers have been burned by game companies delivering utter failures, your skepticism is perfectly understandable.

I, however trust in beamdog to deliver awesomeness, so I'm going to pre-order.

dunbar

One other thing to bear in mind: Maybe we've forgotten how difficult these games are to play "sight unseen". I can predict with a fair amount of certainty that I will get bogged down, lost and killed in several spectacular ways when I first try to play the game, so I'm certainly not assuming that I will even reach the XP cap - whatever it's set at.

zolop

AS A NEW GAME OPTION, this could all be fixed with in terms of the characters transitioning for a high level in BG SoD to BG2 EE is allow the level cap to be removed during the playthrough of the entire series. Add it in as a option, for people like me that want to experiment with different classes, in BG1 with what they level to.

If it breaks the progression of the levels, than they could always do what good ideas this thread has to keep the level cap on certain games within the BG series, but having an option gives the player the choice.

Again add it as a gameplay option when you start a new game for those that are worried about the transition between the series. As an example some classes in BG1 EE are nearly useless in the first game, mages, monks, sorcerers etc.

Note: I still had a lot of trouble defeating the Watchers keep end boss even at very high levels and that is when I was halfway through BG2 EE. In that respect if the player goes through most of the watchers keep prior to getting near (halfway in BG2EE) the end of BG2 EE the battles in BG2 EE won't be as challenging and could be considered easy by comparison. So the game being too easy at halfway point in BG2 EE is already happening if you work your way through most of the watchers keep area.

Wouldn't mind a nightmare mode though for those that want it with their high level characters. Do characters in the Arena for BG1 EE have no exp cap? I have not tried that part of the game yet.

Edit nightmare mode activated!
"Legacy of Bhaal difficulty setting for a challenging tactical experience"
http://fangirlnation.com/2015/07/09/beamdog-announces-baldurs-gate-siege-of-dragonspear/