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SoD Effects on BG2EE

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  • LifatLifat Member Posts: 353
    zolop said:

    As an example some classes in BG1 EE are nearly useless in the first game, mages, monks, sorcerers etc.

    Mages aren't useless in bg1ee... Sleep, stinking cloud and web are all awesome spells that are encounter stompers. Honestly, sleep is probably the most OP thing in bg1ee.

    dr_mudsMortiannarorikon
  • TwentyTwenty Member Posts: 52
    Exactly, how can a mage be useless? :disappointed:

  • GallowglassGallowglass Member Posts: 3,356
    edited January 2016
    Lifat said:

    Honestly, sleep is probably the most OP thing in bg1ee.

    Well, that's true in the first half of BG1, it's a win-button spell against trivial mobs. But it's useless against all enemies over level 4, so it's not nearly so impressive in the later stages of BG1 (and useless in BG2).

    Nevertheless, I agree that describing Mages as "nearly useless" in BG1ee was a ridiculous comment.

    Grammarsalad
  • dunbardunbar Member Posts: 1,603
    Identify and Haste aren't exactly useless either.

  • brunardobrunardo Member Posts: 514
    Great thread @dr_muds , hoping this nightmare mode is more tactical and not just more HP for enemies like HOW as @sarevok57 pointed out.
    Ive been holding off my IWD playthrough as hoping SOD comes out soon and can start!

  • sarevok57sarevok57 Member Posts: 5,811
    edited January 2016
    @brunardo I approve of your display picture B)

    brusbrunardoJuliusBorisovGrammarsalad
  • cmk24cmk24 Member Posts: 605

    On that note: one thing I haven't seen discussed us that, while it's pretty well established that the CAP will be between 440,000 and 660,000 XP, that doesn't mean there will be enough XP in the expansion to get you to the cap. Maybe if you solo you would reach it, but in 6-person parties you would only have ~250,000 XP. Starting SoA with 250,000 XP would not be a very big change.

    My advice: wait and see what happens before worrying yourself into oblivion. It'll probably be okay, and fun. (Maybe.)

    The devs already said you can only hit the XP cap "...provided that you do everything that's possible in the game." That makes me think a full party can only just reach the XP cap in SoD.

    Source:
    http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/index.php?threads/beamdogs-baldurs-gate-siege-of-dragonspear-interquel.96369/page-21#post-4025834

    JuliusBorisov
  • sarevok57sarevok57 Member Posts: 5,811
    I wonder if they will just use the black pits XP cap, 500 000 places rogues at level 12 and fighters at level 10

    kcwiseFardragon
  • LifatLifat Member Posts: 353
    edited January 2016
    sarevok57 said:

    I wonder if they will just use the black pits XP cap, 500 000 places rogues at level 12 and fighters at level 10

    Beyond the fact that we know the XP cap will be between 440k and 660k, we simply have no idea what the XP cap will be. When it comes to guesses, I think you have the most well reasoned guess so far and I'd call it likely that this is what the XP cap will be.

    If that guess is correct then the first part of bg2ee will be easier, but eventually it'll only mean 1.5 extra lvls which shouldn't make such a huge difference.

  • brunardobrunardo Member Posts: 514
    lol thanks @sarevok57 I use it also as my screensaver sometimes

    sarevok57
  • zolopzolop Member Posts: 14
    edited January 2016

    Lifat said:

    Honestly, sleep is probably the most OP thing in bg1ee.

    Well, that's true in the first half of BG1, it's a win-button spell against trivial mobs. But it's useless against all enemies over level 4, so it's not nearly so impressive in the later stages of BG1 (and useless in BG2).

    Nevertheless, I agree that describing Mages as "nearly useless" in BG1ee was a ridiculous comment.
    Resistances to stinking cloud and sleep during the second half of bg1ee makes the spells not as useful, but haste did totally slip my mind. Good points. Monks though still have little use as a class to play in BG1ee as their AC bonus is still pretty bad in melee combat, which is their main role. Hide in shadows as a monk will never approach the effectiveness/usefulness as a thief.

    I guess for people that are worried about the XP transition between BG1ee - BG2 TOB (EE), having the option to start a game without a XP cap (and continue through the series as such) would solve that is the idea I am trying to get across. If one person feels that the XP is too little/too much between transition. They are also including a "legacy of bhaul (spl)" mode (higher difficulty) with the game too.

    Edit: There is a story gameplay mode in SoD, whoops!

  • Mikey205Mikey205 Member Posts: 302
    I play with 3 magic users in BG1:EE. My main a Sorcerer, Imoen dualled to a mage and Dynaheir. They feel weak until about level 4/level 5 and 3rd level spells then they're pretty powerful and definitely not a waste of space. Plus its nice knowing it's an exponential curve.

    For me constant progression is more important than balance so whatever the cap is I'll disable it. I find I'm like 1 level above the cap max after doing everything in BG1 + TOTSC, which isn't so unbalancing (I don't grind). Plus Baldur's Gate has always been a game where you can get caught out by traps, luck and nasty spells so the challenge isn't really gone (playing smart gets you farther than 1-2 levels in general).

  • rjmacreadyrjmacready Member Posts: 91
    This is probably a little too much to hope for but Ive actually been wishing for some small content additions to BGII in light of SoD. Nothing too significant here mind, if not just an odd mention here or there of the events that took place mainly I was thinking if one outcome has you killing the Shining Lady or is it Kailar (sp?) it might be cool to see her in the ToB trial where you have to fight wave after wave of your past slain foes: especially Sarevok, Irenicus and Bodhi.

    Realistically I should imagine its only going to be gameplay additions and tweaks that will be made i.e. the new classes and a shuffle around to account for the extra bulk of exp you can start the game with. Then again Im hoping SoD is followed up by a new BGII expansion as well. Clearly SoD has turned me into something of a hopeless optimist in regards to future BG content.

    JuliusBorisovtypo_tilly
  • Mikey205Mikey205 Member Posts: 302
    Id love if they did that would be great. Ive yet to play through BG2:EE but have heard one of the new companions referenced Dragonspear Castle which prompted lots of wuuahuts from everyone as it hadnt been announced back then. Maybe theres more that they remembered to hold back which references it and hopefully your choices. I also hope for a plane trotting BG2 Throne of Bhaal interquel going to some more of those places described in Planescape.

  • gattberserkgattberserk Member Posts: 190
    I am still thinking Ranger / Paladin will lose out badly if the xp cap is anywhere below 600K. They will end up the only class that is 9 only.

  • LifatLifat Member Posts: 353
    edited February 2016

    I am still thinking Ranger / Paladin will lose out badly if the xp cap is anywhere below 600K. They will end up the only class that is 9 only.

    Levels don't matter that much beyond the first 9 lvls. Beyond that, it is mostly about items. And they have to draw the line somewhere. The higher they draw that line, the more of a faceroll the beginning of BG2EE will be. Not saying that I'm against a 600k XP cap in SoD, because to me, difficulty matters little in these games, I'm simply trying to explain why they MIGHT set the XP cap lower than 600k. If it bothers you terribly, you always have the option of adjusting it via mods or changing the .ini file.

    JuliusBorisov
  • GrammarsaladGrammarsalad Member Posts: 2,577
    Reading this thread, the thought occurred to me:

    Why isn't there a mod to improve the first dungeon? I played it recently, and I just sort of sleepwalked through it. It needs ogres instead if goblins, or something

    Musigny
  • JuliusBorisovJuliusBorisov Member, Administrator, Moderator, Developer Posts: 22,015
    @Grammarsalad There's actually. The SCS has a component that greatly enhances the starting dungeon, starting with changing goblins for duergars. Also, you can sleep only once till you reach the surface.

    Also, there's the Tactics component for the duergar party, of which @Musigny can tell more.

    GrammarsaladMusigny
  • GreenWarlockGreenWarlock Member Posts: 1,354
    Without knowing what is planned to accommodate parties with more xp than expected, one relatively simple feature is already encoded into the game! If you rush the main questline, and then complete the Chapter 2/3 quests after your rescue-trip for Imoen, you might be surprised to find many encounters significantly more challenging than they were before. I remember being surprised by several liches that were not there before. So the game does have some scaling based on party level. Whether that alone is enough, I don't know, and it does not change the fact you will be hitting the end-game of SoA with an extra level or two. For a party of six, this is clearly over the threshold for gaining HLAs, and (single-class) arcane casters getting 9th level spells. That is very disruptive for the final fight, so maybe that can be given an overhaul (assuming WotC and others' blessing).

    I'm nervous about what a higher-level import might mean to difficulty level, but trusting in the game developers. If you are really curious on whether the xp alone would make a difference, it is fairly easy to import a character after completing The Black Pits, with a flat level-cap of 10 (11 for druids), and see how that goes. Pick a class that gets an appreciable xp bonus for hitting level 10 though, thieves actually lose 1k xp!

    MusignyJuliusBorisov
  • MusignyMusigny Member Posts: 1,027
    edited February 2016
    @Grammarsalad @bengoshi

    To enhance the difficulty of the starting dungeon there are a few options:
    1) Stratagems - generic AI / better call for help / smarter mages and priests. It upgrades most of the creatures with new kits / spells / scripts. The cambion too if you deploy the corresponding component.
    2) The specific component "Make the starting dungeon slightly harder" in Stratagems. It does two things. It replaces the gobelins with duergars (both static gobelins and so called spawned groups) and it makes sure you get one or two(?) possible rests without trouble and then all others attempts are guaranted to be interrupted by foes = you can no longer rest.
    3) Tactics Improved Ilyich is an oddity as old as ToB, quite difficult (the Ilyich group is ~ level 12 with a cleric artificially cranked up to level 22). The dialog is funny but unrelated to the story. The Otyiugh is changed a bit, the "spawned" goblins are replaced by duergars conjurers and berserkers (level 7), the mephit portal room is slightly harder and every 6 or 8 hours a new couple of duerguars is spawned, the vampire does not flee. Originally some duergars were in fact human thieves, a kind of toned-down version of the rune assassins. IIRC stratagems tried to use the thieves too but I think it is no longer available.
    4) Let's not forget aTweaks, the simple fact of installing the PnP mephits may give the difficulty a serious boost. There are so many of them on the three areas.

    2 and 3 are mutually exclusive. At the moment option 3 "neutralizes" the aTweaks mephits without altering other parts of the game (an option will re-enable both in the near future).

    @GreenWarlock
    "Scaling based on party level" is a rather limited feature. All it does is to select a group of creatures where the game coded such a spawned group (beholders, vampires, undeads etc...). There are four difficulty levels based on your XP and even though there is a difficulty increase, the only hot point is in the fourth undead group where a lich appears. I cannot quote all the spawn points off the top of my head but those undeads are present in the ghoul village and in two of the small rooms in the Umar hill temple. The XP ranges are 0-400K 400K-1M 1M-2M 2M+.
    Honestly not a sufficient way to balance the game difficulty. You can get an idea of what it does if you use Stratagems "Increase difficulty of level-dependent monster groupings" which can shift those ranges or my own Tactics adaptation of Ishan's always toughest random spawned groups which lets you set your own custom thresholds and ranges.

    I do not think that the XP boot created by SoD is a real problem for the first dungeon. In my opinion the problem is that it may seriously impact the first phases of the game in chapter two where acquiring the first few 100K XP (let's say up to 1M to give an idea) is often the most enjoyable part of my games.

    I am glad to see a new game that covers the 150K - 600K XP of the spectrum because I really enjoy the options offered by those mid levels (more options, more tactics and not yet the big cheesy things). However I hope this is not done at the cost of a BG2 downgrade.
    My preference would go to an unpopular option: At the end of SoD, an event makes you lose your xp and it does down to 161K. The player is given the opportunity to recreate the character using a level one PC granted the 161K XP, up to you to chose different proficiencies, skills and spells if you want to.
    Edit: or even more radical, restore the character you import or create at the start of SoD (if they don't want to code the re-creation of a dual-class pc).

    Post edited by Musigny on
    GreenWarlockJuliusBorisovGrammarsalad
  • Mikey205Mikey205 Member Posts: 302
    My preference would be to toughen up the starting dungeon and then to reduce quest xp gains for it.

    gattberserk
  • gattberserkgattberserk Member Posts: 190
    edited February 2016
    Reduce XP gain would be nice.. as we all know BG2 dish out XP like it was free-flowing water.


    I personally dont like the idea of reducing XP as if we played SOD for no reason at all, so no, would not wish for that.

  • JuliusBorisovJuliusBorisov Member, Administrator, Moderator, Developer Posts: 22,015
    I think there's a chance that the solution about balancing the characters from SoD with higher XP will be nothing more than the Legacy of Bhaal mode.

    It looks like it could be the most convenient solution for the developers: a player activates the mode in the game options and then the game suddenly becomes much more challenging.

    I would like to ask the developers, though, to let us toggle additional XP from the Legacy of Bhaal off and on - because in IWDEE we can only toggle additional XP from Insane difficulty, not from the Heart of Fury mode, and getting additional XP (XP * 4 + 2,000) can be too much for some players.

  • GreenWarlockGreenWarlock Member Posts: 1,354
    An alternative thought - how many xp does the typical party get from learning spells, opening locks, and disarming traps in SoA? Perhaps detect at import if you are 'super-leveled' and divide such awards by 10? Then make the same check at the start of ToB (where many parties might be 'super leveled' if the threshold is 3Mxp, per the original game where max XP was just below that). That would be a more gradual slide back towards status-quo, without having to hit the main quest rewards, which would be the other obvious balancing token.

  • Mikey205Mikey205 Member Posts: 302
    The worst would be to delevel people. Id rather nothing than that I hope they do some balancing to account for higher levels.

    ValamirCleaverGrammarsalad
  • MusignyMusigny Member Posts: 1,027
    bengoshi said:

    I think there's a chance that the solution about balancing the characters from SoD with higher XP will be nothing more than the Legacy of Bhaal mode.

    It looks like it could be the most convenient solution for the developers: a player activates the mode in the game options and then the game suddenly becomes much more challenging.

    I would like to ask the developers, though, to let us toggle additional XP from the Legacy of Bhaal off and on - because in IWDEE we can only toggle additional XP from Insane difficulty, not from the Heart of Fury mode, and getting additional XP (XP * 4 + 2,000) can be too much for some players.

    Do you mean that Beamdog would set (forced or default option) a parameter to play BG2 in a more difficult mode just because you played SoD?
    I dislike the idea very much but I have to admit that it would incidentally rebalance the game a bit by reducing the difference betwen fighter types and spellcaster types, the latter category heavily relying on its scripts rather than its stats. And I understand that those scripts would not be modified by a simple core engine parameter.
    Or they can write a little script shifting both the class level of every creature and the script template where appropriate (e.g. mage8x.bcs is replaced by mage10x.bcs etc...)

  • JuliusBorisovJuliusBorisov Member, Administrator, Moderator, Developer Posts: 22,015
    I mean we'll get that as an option, just like in IWDEE, not by default. What I mean is that that mode may be the only solution.

  • gattberserkgattberserk Member Posts: 190
    Increase XP and increasing HP need to be executed cautiously. IWDEE HOF was way too overboard in term of both how much the mob HP + XP.

    I prefer base XP stayed at 10% more at best, and increase more enemies encounters, with better script and attack strategy.


    Another way is to reduce the Find Trap/Learn Spell/Open Lock XP bonus. Spell scribing exploit is the biggest mistake that shouldnt have been implemented in BG2.

  • DeeDee Member Posts: 10,447
    I always thought it was weird that the Open Lock/Learn Spell XP rewards should have been specific to the character that performed the action. It never made sense to me that the party's fighter might gain a level because the mage in the group spent five minutes writing things down.

    elminsterGrammarsaladGreenWarlockcmk24
  • LifatLifat Member Posts: 353
    Dee said:

    I always thought it was weird that the Open Lock/Learn Spell XP rewards should have been specific to the character that performed the action. It never made sense to me that the party's fighter might gain a level because the mage in the group spent five minutes writing things down.

    On the other hand, what about the fight where the mage is sitting on his/her ass doing nothing and getting kill XP anyway? Taking 3/3.5/path/5th into consideration, why does the entire party get experience from a trap that the rogue took care of? Because it simplifies things and because the challenge of traps are mostly in the taxing of resources, and while it doesn't cost anything to disarm a trap succesfully, springing it would mean that the rogue needs healing...
    See how trying to individualize XP rewards quickly becomes complicated?
    I'm not saying that you don't have a point, because you obviously do. I'm just trying to say that it is more difficult than you'd think to try and individualize it, so I like the way it is kept simple.

    Personally, I've completely walked away from the idea of people having different amounts of experience, but when I first started out, the people I play/ed with used to hand out individual XP when a scene was roleplayed particularly well, while any experience reward earned from overcoming a hurdle was shared.

    Grammarsalad
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