A paladin without Carsomyr?
Kneller
Member Posts: 438
I'm considering a cavalier, but potentially not building around Carsomyr. I know it's a great sort, matches the class, and is fitting with the stronghold quest, but i would like to be versatile. Here's the thing. I would have Jah as an off tank, Minsc would get edited into an Archer (I don't need 3 on the front line), Yoshi>Imoen, and then Aerie for divine/arcane support. If I go the 2h route, then I have nobody to use the FOA, purifier, MoD, and all the great long swords in the game. Still, I'll only have so many proficiency points to go around, so I have to choose what I use. Side note, I'm not going to cheese and pick axes so I can use throwing axes. Anyway, here are some thoughts.
One handers in general. Shields are useful for a while. If I do develop twf, there will be some uses for sword and board until then.
Flails. FoA and DoE are the only real selling points here. Don't get me wrong, FoA is a great weapon, but there's not a lot of diversity.
Bastard swords. The only real reason for this is the purifier, and you get that pretty late (unless you cheese a bit and dip into WK before you're really ready for it.
Longsword. A lot of good ones in SoA, though some just have good spell like effects. One could always just equip for the effects and then switch to fighting weapons.
Two handed swords. Minsc will probably already have this to back up his archery. My favorite 2h is the talking one. He's a good companion for Minsc.
Maces. Only the MoD jumps to mind here. It's situational.
I figure you have 6 pips at the start of the game. Then another 4 by level 18. I don't think you can cover all your bases with this. With this party, how would you build the Cav for some versatility? Thanks.
One handers in general. Shields are useful for a while. If I do develop twf, there will be some uses for sword and board until then.
Flails. FoA and DoE are the only real selling points here. Don't get me wrong, FoA is a great weapon, but there's not a lot of diversity.
Bastard swords. The only real reason for this is the purifier, and you get that pretty late (unless you cheese a bit and dip into WK before you're really ready for it.
Longsword. A lot of good ones in SoA, though some just have good spell like effects. One could always just equip for the effects and then switch to fighting weapons.
Two handed swords. Minsc will probably already have this to back up his archery. My favorite 2h is the talking one. He's a good companion for Minsc.
Maces. Only the MoD jumps to mind here. It's situational.
I figure you have 6 pips at the start of the game. Then another 4 by level 18. I don't think you can cover all your bases with this. With this party, how would you build the Cav for some versatility? Thanks.
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Comments
Most of the others are simply varying degrees of hard-hitting. How hard, that can be calculated fairly easily (with few exceptions that require a bit more work to run the numbers for). Carsomyr is way up there with the best of them, having a FANTASTIC per-hit damage rivaled by very few weapons. The dispel on hit is actually just a bonus, the best part of the weapon is its +5/6 damage to evil enemies, which covers about 90% of the game, if not more. With a high-level Paladin using Greater Whirlwind, the amount of damage you can dish out with Carsomyr is obscene - but not unmatched.
Compare:
Carsomyr+6: 1d12+6+6(evil) = 12.5 average per hit (18.5 vs evil)
Flail of Ages+5: 1d6+6+2(fire)+2(acid)+2(cold)+2(poison)+2(electric) = 19.5 average per hit
As you can see, even against evil enemies, FoA+5 does more damage - in theory. Do keep in mind that it only takes immunity or >50% resistance to a single of FoA's elements for it to do less damage per hit than Carsomyr, though you do still get the on-hit Slow which is very powerful (then again so is Carsomyr's dispel).
One of the big draws of FoA is that it's one-handed, which means you can up its base APR by using a +APR offhand; depending on how you deal with the Free Action effect, you may also be able to benefit from Improved Haste as well, giving you 10 APR for a fairly long time - something Carsomyr can't provide, as it relies on GWW to get to max APR.
The other weapons aren't really able to compete. Some certainly come close, but the only ones that MIGHT get there are Angurvadal and Crom Faeyr, due to the STR bonus that can provide very large overall damage gains, but depends on the characters original STR value (the higher, the less of a benefit from the weapon).
So, unless you're stuck with 10 STR or something, chances are you'll just want to stick with Carsomyr and not look back. Be happy to wield an item of shattering power, and proceed to smite everything there is or ever will be so far into the ground it comes back out the other side.
In IWD, an extra +5 damage is basically all you need to know about a weapon, since it is a game of damage and HP. But for BG2, damage is only one of many factors.
Carsomyr is the obvious choice for any (Good-aligned) Paladin, but of course it's not obligatory. The only reason why the Purifier has any purpose in the game is to be a mini-Carsomyr for a Paladin who isn't going the usual two-handed route.
You under-rate Bastard Swords, incidentally - in addition to the Purifier, the upgraded Foebane is also very good ... but that's also a late acquisition.
You're frankly making an outright mistake not wanting Axes, especially since you're concerned about versatility. There are situations in which a ranged weapon is useful for every character, and (as a Cavalier) your only ranged options are Axes and Daggers. The Azuredge +3 throwing axe is restricted to Good-only, so it's perfect as the ranged option for Cavaliers, indeed it was probably designed specifically with Cavaliers in mind.
If you're not going to use Carsomyr, then don't bother with two-handing at all (you can leave that to Minsc), but do develop dual-wielding. Nevertheless, you're right to want to carry a shield as well, not only for use when an enemy is hitting you too much, but also because some shields have useful bonus effects.
In which one-handed weapons to develop your Cavalier's proficiency, depends somewhat upon the rest of the party and what they'll be using. Since you'll have Jaheira, she'll want the good Scimitars, so give your Cavalier Short Swords to be able to wield Kundane off-hand for +1 APR. Also give your Cavalier proficiencies in Warhammer, so as to wield Crom Faeyr +5 in the off-hand (or sometimes in the main hand) when you want STR 25, and Flail proficiencies to wield the Defender of Easthaven in the off-hand when damage resistance is the priority. Bastard Swords are a solid main-hand option so that you can eventually use Purifier or Foebane, Axes are a good call for a ranged option (as I've already argued) and also the Axe of the Unyielding +5 is a great melee weapon, and that leaves you one more pair of pips (assuming *** in dual-wielding). I'd leave it to Minsc to handle Maces (MoD in the early game, adding Stormstar +5 later), so I'd probably complete the Cavalier's proficiency with Long Swords (for various bonus effects), but others might advocate Katanas (for Celestial Fury).
I think some of the bastard swords are great, but also come kind of late, which mitigates their usefulness. And, I certainly don't need to start a character with two pips in it. It's the same for Carsomyr. Even if you're going for it, you don't even need to start a character with ** in 2H sword, because you'll probably get enough pips along the way to seeking it out.
I figured flail was kind of a no-brainer. You get FoA early enough, it's broadly applicable enough, and with my proposed party, the paly is the guy to swing it.
I think what I would like to do (ideally) is start with sword and board and some variety within (but not waste pips on sword and shield style), then work my way towards Carsomyr. I figure, I can use the six pips I start with for three different 1h weapons, then use my next 3 (up to L15), on 2H sword, then 1 pip on 2H style (I'm not sure the second pip is worth it). But that leaves me with three 1h weapons to choose.
I'm kinda thinking Flails (FoA), Long swords (Daystar and Dragonslayer), and something else. Maybe maces for MoD or axes if I want to be cheeey, or maybe bastard swords, so I can eventually (at L24) max out TWF and DW Foebane and Purifier. I figured I'd ask. I'm sure the community has something to offer that hasn't crossed my mind.
As for the rest of the party, I'll have Minsc on Bows, obviously. Jah will probably be doing two-handers (spears and/or staves followed by slings and/or darts and a one-hander in case I want to send her into the mix with a shield) and I might SK her pips to be more consistent with that. Aerie and Imoen's weapon choices are pretty irrelevant.
I agree with your general plan, though. 2h isn't spectacular at early game, and things like FoA are a big argument to starting off with 1h. Shields are fine to use while you're starting out, but I find they quickly lose their appeal. Plus, at least one of the +APR weapons is extremely easy to get. All valid points by themselves, but largely irrelevant to the discussion here. Of course it's beneficial to swap in protection/immunity items as needed, but that hardly means you have to spec for it. Pop a Hold-immune sword in the offhand when you expect Hold spells - and who cares about the weapon type. Same for most other such weapons, with VERY few exceptions.
Also, no-reload runs are a bit of a special case, since they put a much greater emphasis on protective items. In regular runs you can safely ignore most effects and just take the risk, you'll end up clearing things more quickly even with a reload or two in the mix.
Unmodded, it's actually fairly easy to ignore a whole lot of things. You can brute-force most battles easily if you just nuke first, ask no questions later.
Modded, things change around; how and by how much, that depends on the specific setup in question. Legacy of Bhaal mode is also a bit different.
With 15 proficiency pips by the XP cap, and if committed to *** going into dual-wielding, then you might as well (eventually) put a second * in Two-Handed Style because you'll have the odd pip to use up. That means 5 weapons with **, in which case I'd probably go for Axes, Short Swords, Warhammers, 2H Swords, Halberds (i.e. dropping both Flails and Bastard Swords).
However, if the eventual plan is to go two-handing for Carsomyr (and Ravager), then I probably wouldn't bother with developing dual-wielding as well. I'd choose one or the other, and stick to it once I'd got the appropriate proficiencies and equipment, instead spending the extra pips on versatility. (In either case, you start as sword-and-shield until you're properly set up for two-handing or dual-wielding.) Thus in your scenario I'd probably end up with Axe **, Flail **, Lswd **, Bswd **, Gswd **, Hlbd **, 2HS **, SSS *.
The ranged weapon restriction is part of the lore behind the Cavalier. These paladins are dedicated to fighting evil beings toe to toe, which is why they receive special training and (as a result) their BG2 special abilities.
Access to thrown weapons is likely an oversight or engine limitation.
Option 1- go straight to spell hold
if this is your goal ( presumably trying to get imoen on your team as fast as possible) then the proficiencies I would go with would be:
Katana: 2 points
Mace: 2 points
Bastard Sword: 2 points
If going to spell hold right away is your thing you will notice in Bodhi's Dungeon there is the MoD and a katana +2 the MoD is great for 3 reasons; A- it hits as a +3 weapon, so for all the spell hold/underdark nonsense that requires +3 weapons or better to hit, this mace has got you covered, B- it just wrecks undead, and bg2 has lots of undead, especially if you upgrade it, it will give you immunity to level drain and hit as a +5 weapon, good stuff, and C- this mace can hit clay golems, if you go to spell hold right away there will be the odd clay golem around, ( even in Bodhi's dungeon there is a clay golem for pete's sake) so this weapon is very useful for that. But other than that, you can use the katana +2 which deals as much damage as a two handed sword +2 BUT you can use a shield at the same time ( right on ) and then once you get to the underdark, very interesting bastard swords start to pop up, with the iron globe alone there is 2 of them there ( one dude has jhor the bleeder, and the one drow mage who isn't all there mentally, if you cast heal on him, he will give you the one that gives you immunity to poison and non detection I believe) and then once you hit the underdark city you can get blade of searing +3 which deals an extra point of fire damage which is great for all the pesky trolls you will find in bg2, and then once you hit level 9 if you want to go dual wield route, there will be 2 katanas +2 ( Bodhi dungeon and spell hold) and 3 bastard swords in the underdark, so that will keep you covered, or just go for the AC route and keep using a shield
Option 2 - do some questing before spell hold
If you plan to stick around for a while then I would probably do one of these:
Long Sword: 2 points
Crushing Weapon: 2 points ( 75% chance flail, 25% chance mace)
Misc: 2 points
So here, the main goal is a longsword call daystar, which in theory you can get before you go to spell hold, but it requires you to kill a lich for, and that could be a little out of your league if you are at low levels, but once you get some levels this sword is awesome, even though its a +2 weapon, it strikes as a +4 weapon, has an additional +2 to hit/ to damage against evil ( which A LOT of enemies you are going to fight against will be) and it does a whole bunch of extra whacky damage to undead, and before you get this, you can always go with the blades of roses +3 which can be found very early in the game and gives +2 to charisma ( sweet deal)
Now with the crushing weapon, this is just strictly for clay golems, but the DoE is a great choice, that damage resistance is very nice, especially when you cast armor of faith with it, granted armor of faith doesn't give you huge bonuses but when stock piled with DoE it does make a difference
And for the last 2, its more of depending on what you want to do, maybe go 2 weapon style and wield daystar with DoE, you will get great damage vs evil/undead and have great weapon resistances, if you want versatility, then there it is right there, or..... you can put 2 in katana and go get celestial fury, which is a very VERY great one handed weapon, because A- it deals 1d10+3 damage and B- EVERY hit forces the victim to save or be stunned, which is VERY powerful indeed
So, with that all being said for SoA, I would just go bastard sword for ToB, because both +5 bastard swords are great, Foebane is actually quite amazing, because not only does it give +1 to all saves, and extra damage bonus against a lot of the enemies you are going to fight, but that minor drain effect, is actually amazing, not only does it heal you, but you can go above your max HP, making that a great weapon for low HP front line fighters, and then you have the Purifier +5, which also kicks but, with its 30% magic resistance and +5 to damage on chaotic evil baddies ( along with a dispel magic ability usable X amount of times per day, its pretty much the equivalent of carsomyr in one hand) heck if you like 'em both, put some pips in dual wielding and just for kicks wield them both ( if you do go that route, I would suggest putting foebane in the main hand just for the minor drain effect)
So yeah, it's a bit of a novel, but that's how I would handle it in your situation ( personally I would go with option one and just use sword and board the whole game, get to the pretty bastard swords, and keep using them all the way until the purifier)
Daystar was already mentioned; yes it is guarded by a Lich, but (in the unmodded game) you can just run in, quickly pick the lock on the chest, loot Daystar, and run away before the Lich turns you into a smear on the floor.
Celestial Fury is another extremely good SoA weapon. It loses a lot of value later in the game where it is overshadowed by half a dozen other choices, but if gotten early it is ridiculously powerful. It is quite guarded [pun!], but not impossible to get early; you don't need to kill every enemy, just the one that has CF. Then you can run away. Doable at very early levels, if you're quick and smart about it.
Flail of Ages remains the most prominent SoA weapon choice. It can be gotten fairly early, and it deals a lot more damage than most other choices - plus it has a no-save Slow on hit which is just ridiculously good.
Foebane+3 can actually be gotten in early SoA, too, if you have no qualms about going to WK early (I know some people don't like that). This can be a very tough fight, but not impossible to do early on; it gets easier if you quest a little first, and if you finish most side areas before Spellhold, it's not very difficult anymore. It is however not an exceedingly good weapon un-upgraded, except against shapeshifters, undead, and extra-planars [Note: iirc this bonus was bugged at some point, not sure if fixed without mods]
All those weapons are better than pretty much all 2h choices at that point in the game. However, do keep in mind that Carsomyr, too, can be gotten fairly early. You don't need to cheese Firkraag at all, just do a few side quests and you can actually legitimately beat him before you depart for Spellhold. I usually finish Eyeless, de'Arnise Keep, Trademeet, and most of the Athkatla stuff before I go face Big Red, and it's rarely a problem to kill him (outside of Legacy of Bhaal).
Personally, I tend to go with 2h from the start anyway on my Paladin. Why? Because all the other good 1h weapons are on the rest of my party :P But that is just a personal preference.
FOR REFERENCE here's a damage rundown of the early SoA weapons, sorted by average damage per hit:
11.5 (16.5) Carsomyr+5: 1d12+5 (+5 ch.evil) | +Dispel Magic on hit (no save), +50% MR
9.5 Flail of Ages+3: 1d6+3+1+1+1 | +Slow on hit (no save)
9.5 Celestial Fury: 1d10+3+(5%*20) | +stun on hit (save)
8.0 (14) Foebane+3: 2d4+3 (+6 various) | +bonus vs. undead, shifter, extraplanar
6.5 (8.5) Daystar: 1d8+2 (+4 evil) | +double vs. undead
Keep in mind that there are various factors that influence total damage output, the most important of which is APR - that gives an advantage to 1h weapons, as they can be used with a +APR offhand, effectively increasing their damage by about 40% (going from 2.5 APR to 3.5 APR mainhand for a 13+ Paladin with **).
Yep, you'll have fewer APR and do less DPS, but so what?!
Still, it's always best to talk about the under-the-hood stuff, learning is its own reward. And once the options and intricacies of the many choices available are presented, everyone can make their own decision - based on that, or based on whatever else works for them.
The latter + Hardiness (+armor of faith) makes you nearly unkillable, while your mainhand weapon deals good damage and provide extra tankiness
If you go for weapon+shield, well I cannot deny the fact it's not so good in terms of powergaming but if you are fine with that, you can consider FoA, Purifier, Foebane, ....
Cavaliers are resistant to a large amount of things, including fear. That alone makes it versatile. You could use the Purifier in one hand (if you upgrade two-handed style) and, in ToB at least, Runehammer, which would make him/her fantastic against undead. In SoA, you could substitute the hammer for MoD or something.
Not sure if I helped, but I tried. xD
I do this run very early on with my paladin (no-reload), so it can be done without dying at low levels.
There's way too many good one-handed weapons in this game. I'm think of turning Minsc back into a DWer from an archer role just so I can use them all...
Edit: Forgot to mention I almost always let Anomen wield the Flail of Ages. I know many folks dislike him but I find Anomen almost invaluable and he rocks that flail!
*for purposes of this comment, let's say FoA, CF, other CF, Carsomyr, IMoD, SoM, speed weapons in the off hand, DoE (if stacking resisitances), am I missing any?
I know I'll be using FoA for my main most of the time, and probably even DoE (though I'm not seeing Joluv at the CC, so who knows?). But, I'll probably switch out from time to time to keep things interesting,
Shadows of Amn- where Blackrazor, Impaler, and the Silver Sword are strictly second-tier items!
(Admittedly you usually get those rather late- there are plenty of interesting weapons short of those though no one ever discusses. Has anybody ever even purchased Joril's Dagger for example?)
Yeah okay it's not great, but I sometimes treat myself to it before picking up Carsomyr. It's probably the best 2h pre Spellhold, aside from Carsomyr.
Anyway, I do agree that there is a fairly large power gap between items in the base game. Which is why I cannot recommend enough the Item Revisions mod, which addresses that. Lots more options, lots smaller spread between options. Never play without it anymore.