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Difference between Protection from the Elements and Protection from Energy?

OhmegaOhmega Member Posts: 35
edited January 2016 in Baldur's Gate II: Enhanced Edition
Wondering what the differences are if anyone knows?

So far as I can see Protection from Energy gives Acid Resistance (Protection from the Elements does not) and it gives something called "Magic Damage:" resistance as opposed to just "Magic:" resistance.

So my question is probably just: What is "Magic Damage:" resistance?

I've casted several Skull Traps at myself, didn't resist that. Casted Magic Missile and it didn't resist that... So... What does it resist?

If someone could tell me what "Magic Fire:" resistance and "Magic Cold:" resistance does differently to "Fire:"/"Cold:" resistance that'd be helpful too.

Were there any other differences that I missed for Protection from Energy?
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  • Lord_TansheronLord_Tansheron Member Posts: 4,212
    "Magic Damage" is as you rightly assumed any damage that is magical but non-elemental in nature. As such, both Magic Missile and Skull Trap should fall under that category, and should be reduced by Protection from Energy. How much resistance does it give? Unlike Magic Resistance, specific resistances usually reduce the damage by that %, rather than giving a % chance to avoid it entirely (as Magic Resistance does). Maybe that is why you saw things hit regardless?

    As for the Magic Fire/Cold, I heard somewhere it doesn't actually do anything and is largely a code remnant. Not sure though.
  • OhmegaOhmega Member Posts: 35
    75%

    Yeah, seems to be just 75% reduced damage not 75% chance to avoid damage. That makes sense. Wasn't too sure as I was messing with the Difficulty setting at the time which changed the damage I was taking as well - so it wasn't obvious to me.
  • Lord_TansheronLord_Tansheron Member Posts: 4,212
    It's far from obvious. This game has many complicated and sometimes unintuitive mechanics, it's never wrong to ask if you don't understand something. :)
  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 16,317
    edited January 2016
    Ohmega said:

    Wondering what the differences are if anyone knows?

    So far as I can see Protection from Energy gives Acid Resistance (Protection from the Elements does not) and it gives something called "Magic Damage:" resistance as opposed to just "Magic:" resistance.

    So my question is probably just: What is "Magic Damage:" resistance?

    I've casted several Skull Traps at myself, didn't resist that. Casted Magic Missile and it didn't resist that... So... What does it resist?

    If someone could tell me what "Magic Fire:" resistance and "Magic Cold:" resistance does differently to "Fire:"/"Cold:" resistance that'd be helpful too.

    Were there any other differences that I missed for Protection from Energy?

    What version of the game are you playing and are you running any mods? In the enhanced edition it gives 100% resistance to this. Your character will react to getting hit but it shouldn't cause any damage.
  • OhmegaOhmega Member Posts: 35
    edited January 2016
    @elminster BG2EE with EE Keeper only. No mods.

    The spell info says 75% "... confers 75% immunity against all energy attacks-such as fire, cold, acid, magic and electricity, whether from...".

    Not sure what you're thinking of? This is the level 8 spell Protection from Energy. Seems to be working as expected.
  • NuinNuin Member Posts: 451
    It's partly flavor text.
    Originally, I think, there was going to be a difference between magical fire (like from the Fireball spell) and "normal" fire (like from lava). It's one of those little D&D ruling quirks, like how the Haste spell was supposed to still work even if you use Freedom of Movement or Improved Haste, except the effects were suppressed (so if somehow the Freedom of Movement or Improved Haste effects were removed, then Haste would function as normal).
    They simplified everything in EE versions, I think. Normal fire=magical fire, with few exceptions and unless otherwise specified.
  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 16,317
    edited January 2016
    Ohmega said:

    @elminster BG2EE with EE Keeper only. No mods.

    The spell info says 75% "... confers 75% immunity against all energy attacks-such as fire, cold, acid, magic and electricity, whether from...".

    Not sure what you're thinking of? This is the level 8 spell Protection from Energy. Seems to be working as expected.

    Ahh you are talking about Protection from Energy. I was thinking Protection from Magical Energy (level 6). One of these days I'll learn to read. :)

    Anyways, yea that one gives 75% resistance. As you noted that just means is that the damage as a whole is reduced. The only type of resistance that (if successful) will totally block something is magic resistance (assuming a particular spell isn't programmed to bypass it).
  • Lord_TansheronLord_Tansheron Member Posts: 4,212
    There was the curious case of things like Fire Shield going through magic resistance, ostensibly because it is normal fire just held in place with magic. As opposed to Fireball which is... uh... something something MAGIC something.

    Not sure if that was actually founded in the Fire/Magic Fire mechanics, or simply written into the particular spell effect.
  • MrNoobyMrNooby Member Posts: 131
    edited January 2016
    Or it could just be an oversight. I don't recall, but does the the fireshield damage technically come from the caster, or yourself? Could play a part.

    The cloak of mirroring has no effect on it either.
  • lunarlunar Member Posts: 3,460
    Protection from magic energy is a 6th lvl spell, it confers %100 immunity to pure magic damage:magic missile, skull trap, cause wounds (both priest and gauth/beholder ray variants), horrid wilting. And vampiric wraiths in the watchers keep also deal a hefty magic damage with their melee attacks as well.

    In combat text magical damage is colored in yellow. I love this ee enchantment. Fire damage is red, lightning is pale blue, cold dark blue, acid and poison are different shades of green (I can not tell them apart by memory but poison is a more sickly green, I think) regular slashing/piercing/crushing damage is white, and pure magic is orangish yellow.

    Protection from elements (7th lvl) gives %75 damage resist vs cold, fire and lightning. Lasts shorter than single element protections.
    Protection from energy (8th lvl) gives %75 damage resist vs all magical damage:fire, lightning, cold, acid and pure magic. It also is short lasting.

    I wish 7th and 8th lvl spells gave %100 resistance. And lasted a bit longer. As such, casting protection from fire (3rd level mage version) and cold (3rd level mage version) gives %100 immunity to fire and cold damage and lasts 10 times longer than the supposedly superiour 7th lvl pro from elements. You can layer in 5th lvl pro from lightning and gain immunity to lightning as well.

    I think to balance it, lesser versions of pro from fire, cold, etc. should just give %75 damage, last 5 rounds/lvl
    And 7th and 8th lvl spells should be named 'İmmunity to elements' and 'immunity to energy' and give %100, and last 3 rounds/lvl. Thus, if you want immunity from fire you need to burn a 7th lvl slot. Not a cheap single 3rd lvl spell. Or, you can stack pro from fire+fire shield red. If they stack they give you %100 immunity to fire. This way 3 and 4 level spells together equal to the power of 7th lvl. BUT still 7th lvl is stronger as it also covers cold and lightning. In fact by this tweak those 7th and 8th lvl spells become very powerful top performance abjurations and worthy to cast. Currently I never ever memorise them when I can have a finger of death, mordy sword, ruby ray, project image, or horrid wilting, pw:blind, incendiary cloud, etc.

    As is, a lvl 5 invoker can cast lvl 3 pro from fire on a fighter, send him to tank monsters and blast them all with fireball spells/wands.
  • OhmegaOhmega Member Posts: 35
    edited January 2016
    @lunar

    It doesn't need a buff.

    Protection from the Elements + Dragon Helm is 100% resistance to 3 elements.
    Protection from Energy + Helm of the Rock is 100% resistance to 4 elements and 75% resistance to magic damage.

    That is huge.

    It solves all of your resistance problems (and then some) with 1 item leaving you free to itemise however you want with everything else. If you're playing a thief multiclass this is exceptionally useful.

    Spells like this have to be used and explored before you understand how strong or weak they are. You can't judge them properly if you just take Horrid Wilting every play through. Just because you can't easily quantify it through simple terms/direct benefits (like "damage") doesn't make it weak or useless at all. Used in the correct way and perceived in the right way, it's actually very strong.

    Balancing the way you suggested is awful too. It dumbs down the game and becomes a "use this spell every time for every character that can use it", there's no consequences, no synergy and no skill involved - kind of like using Project Image. The Protection spells don't need balancing but also... balancing like you suggest is a bad way to do it, if anything, stronger spells (of the type that have those auto-win conditions) should come down - I play without them for my own sake.
  • MathsorcererMathsorcerer Member Posts: 3,044
    Fire Shield targets the caster and applies a spell on the last target that hits the caster in melee combat; that spell bypasses resistances. The subsequent spell, itself, merely applies damage of the type specified by the type of shield in use (cold, fire, etc). The Cloak of Mirroring protects from spells of the subtype "offensive damage" but Fire Shield's subtype is "specific protections"; thus, the Cloak will not stop any damage dealt by Fire Shield.

    I am not aware of any differences between "cold resistance bonus" (opcode 28) and "magical cold resistance bonus" (opcode 85). Why isn't there a "magical electricity resistance bonus"?

    I am still curious as to why "protection from acid" isn't part of Protection from the Elements. Isn't acid an elemental type of damage? Other than the fifth-level spell Protection from Acid and the generic protection scroll "protection from acid" there aren't many spells or items that give resistance to that damage type.

    High-level fighter/mages get to take advantage of using Protection from the Elements/Protection from Energy and the Helm of the Rock--enjoy your 100% resistances.
  • GoturalGotural Member Posts: 1,229
    Note that Protection from the Elements, like Protection from Fire, Cold, Electricity and so forth, can be stacked with itself.

    Cast Protection from the Elements twice and your character will have 127% resistance against everything.
  • semiticgoddesssemiticgoddess Member Posts: 14,903
    @Mathsorcerer: Magical cold isn't implemented. I understand that magical cold damage crashes the game if it's ever used, so the resistance will never come into play.

    @Gotural: In EE, Protection from the Elements doesn't appear to stack. Apparently Protection from Energy still does; it's missing opcode 321.
  • GoturalGotural Member Posts: 1,229
    edited January 2016


    Removed useless screenshots.
    Post edited by Gotural on
  • OhmegaOhmega Member Posts: 35
    edited January 2016
    @Gotural

    See attached image (don't know how to post the image as you have done).

    This is straight BG2EE, I have EE Keeper and NO mods. This is ONE Protection from the Elements (level 7 spell). Yours LOOKS like Protection from Energy (the level 8 version - it's giving you Acid Resist and Magic Damage resist). Definitely something different if that's your version of Protection from the Elements... Either the mods changed something or you just casted Protection from Energy by mistake and posted those results. I'm assuming that the Poison Resist and Magic Resist are from items you've left on your character.

    Edit: Just tested Protection from the Elements - it does NOT stack in BG2EE, non-modded. Works as @semiticgod points out. Protection from Energy still stacks.
  • GoturalGotural Member Posts: 1,229
    @Ohmega @semiticgod Oh yes I'm stupid, I was mistaking ProtfElements with ProtfEnergy, nice catch!
  • lunarlunar Member Posts: 3,460
    @Ohmega

    Well, I can see your point. But I still think a lvl 7 or 8 spell should be powerful enough to warrant a cast in a given sitaution. As is, when I face a red dragon, or fire mephits/elementals, efreet etc. I cast protection from fire lvl 3 version for %100 immunity. It also lasts practically enough to the end of any battle. Pro from elementals cast is inferior as it gives only %75 resist and lasts very short. I can see pro from elementals covers three damage types, but really, is it necessary? You really don't need to cover all three damage types most of the time. Well yes, an enemy mage can cast fireball/lightning and then cold cone, but still..

    Actually the thing that annoys me is the short duration of lvl 7/8 pro buffs. IIRC single elemental variants last 5 times longer.

    But I see your point and agree that there just isn't any elegant solution. Maybe 3rd lvl pro from fire/col should be nerfed and maybe 'fixed' their descriptions tell %50 resist but the spells give you %100 immunity. Weird.
  • Lord_TansheronLord_Tansheron Member Posts: 4,212
    lunar said:

    I can see pro from elementals covers three damage types, but really, is it necessary? You really don't need to cover all three damage types most of the time.

    This is a recurring problem in many areas. Due to the amount of meta-knowledge we have about the game, flexibility loses a ton of value. Why be prepared for everything when you KNOW what you are going to face? This doesn't really translate well from PnP, where there is real value in being protected against the unexpected - because there IS the unexpected.
  • OhmegaOhmega Member Posts: 35
    edited January 2016
    lunar said:

    I cast protection from fire lvl 3 version for %100 immunity.

    It gives 80% resistance to fire (not 100%) and only lasts 3 rounds longer than Protection from Energy - initially it might seem quite long compared to other spells but only because you're so low level that 3 rounds is 1/3rd or 1/4th of your levels and many of the divine spell buffs are strictly 1 round/level or 1 turn. Of course the resistance is easily made to be 100% with things like Gift of Peace helmet and rings of fire resistance - the same as with ProtfElem/Energy. And of course I use the level 3 protection from fire too, who wouldn't.

    But for fights that are actually difficult Protection from Energy is pretty useful.Acid resistance can be pretty useful in some fights but mainly it's about stopping all of the small instances of damage that add up on a squishy character. Also it's about making you completely unstoppable ;)

    I guess the duration could certainly be longer, it wouldn't make it too strong either, I agree, it'd make it more viable earlier on. When you're level 18 though it has a pretty solid duration and should get you through the fight.
  • lunarlunar Member Posts: 3,460
    I meant the arcane wizard version of 3rd lvl protection from fire. The spell description says %50 fire resistance. When Imoen casts it on herself the record page says she has 100 fire resistance and 50 magical fire resistance. Since the game only uses the former damage type and never the latter, it practically gives immunity to fire. It also lasts for huge 1 turn/lvl.

    Priest version of lvl 3 protection from fire supposedly gives %80. In practice it gives %100 fire resistance and %80 magical fire resistance. And it lasts very short, 3 rounds+1 round/lvl. Note that this priest version also has a very long casting time, while arcane version has 3, but this is typical for priest spells.

    Something is amiss indeed.
  • OhmegaOhmega Member Posts: 35
    @lunar

    Oh that's interesting. Fair enough. Nice to learn something :)
  • cloudkillbeatsallcloudkillbeatsall Member Posts: 98
    Why isn't there a protection from poison damage type spell? It's the only type mages can't render themselves immune to and 2 cloudkills basically disrupts everyone, especially liches. It seems a bit unbalanced that there is nothing they can do to stop it and also feels a bit incomplete as every other damage type has a spell to protect against it. It's one of the things I would add to the game if I could.
  • Lord_TansheronLord_Tansheron Member Posts: 4,212
    To be fair, you can block poison with an easily available necklace that you can just pass around ad hoc when needed.

  • cloudkillbeatsallcloudkillbeatsall Member Posts: 98
    Well, enemy mages don't have that.
  • GoturalGotural Member Posts: 1,229
    Irenicus being immune to poison, I always thought he had a magical trinket that protects him against that.
  • semiticgoddesssemiticgoddess Member Posts: 14,903
    SCS enemies won't linger in cloud effects, but vanilla enemies will.
  • lunarlunar Member Posts: 3,460
    edited January 2016
    cloudkillbeatsall said:

    Why isn't there a protection from poison damage type spell? It's the only type mages can't render themselves immune to and 2 cloudkills basically disrupts everyone, especially liches. It seems a bit unbalanced that there is nothing they can do to stop it and also feels a bit incomplete as every other damage type has a spell to protect against it. It's one of the things I would add to the game if I could.

    Umm, aren't liches immune to lvl 1-5 spells, including cloudkill? Also, they should be immune to poison, as well, being skeletal undead monstroties.
    In some tactics mods, or maybe even in vanilla, they cast cloudkill on themselves to disrupt enemy mages around them. (and kill lowly summons too)
    Rakshasas also employ the same tactic sometimes.

    I created a lvl 5 spell protection from poison, that copies the effects of scroll of the same name and lasts 1 round/level :)
  • biffyclangerbiffyclanger Member Posts: 216
    I tried to cloudkill cowled enforcers outside of their visual range on to have them come after me. Well done EE.
  • cloudkillbeatsallcloudkillbeatsall Member Posts: 98
    @lunar
    Yeah, I was joking about Cloudkill affecting liches. Funnily enough, I don't think they are immune to poison. I remember using Dolorous Decay against them in my last playthrough, which was pretty effective. I don't think they're supposed to be immune to it either, as per http://www.lomion.de/cmm/lich.php.

    I'd like to have a copy of that spell but then it's not like the enemy AI would use it.
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