Elf Assassin trilogy run - weapon proficiencies
Aerakar
Member Posts: 1,024
See the title. Am thinking short bow and long sword for the Elf THACO racial bonus at level 1. For the 3rd proficiency at level 4, does anyone use darts with Elven Assassins? Darts are strong in BG1, but fall off in BG2 as I hear, so would using darts AND short bows make sense for an Elf, or better to use the pip on another weapon, e.g. quarterstaff? Quarterstaff could also wait until level 12.
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Will you go for stealth asap? If yes, then I would indeed consider choosing qstaffs for strong backstabs. If you want to be the party's only thief, then I guess you won't BS as much which may affect which prof's to choose and in what order. Also, as you of course already know, strikíng from stealth gives a THAC0 bonus, so even if the +2 THAC0 from assassin+elf sword is exciting, it's not as necessary if you plan to not engage in melee as much.
And in BG2, you get an amazing Crossbow in Firetooth.
So, if you didn't go with darts at the 1st level, instead choosing Short Bows, I would take crossbows.
Something like this:
1 Long Sword (Varscona), Short Bow
4 SWS
8 Quarterstaff ( for late game Staff of Striking)
12, 16, 20 TWF x 3 (I use Rogue Rebalancing which allows 3 pips in TWF for thieves)
24 Scimitars (or short swords) for an off-hand speed-weapon after UAI
28 THS (for Staff of Ram)
I am planning a ranged focus for my assassin in games 1-2 with liberal blade/staff backstabbing and then adding TWF in late game for additional melee tactical options. I could place THS earlier at level 12 to compliment the staff of striking, but will also use long swords.
@bengoshi, interesting strategy on using all of the fancy ammo with an Assassin, i.e. short bows AND crossbows! I do love the bolts of lightning/biting. My recent Dwarven bounty hunter used crossbows to very damaging effect in BG 1 (LCoS).
Shortsword+2 is easy to acquire, and shortsword is better for an assasin. Faster than Varscona, so you can backstab sooner-before your stealth expires or the target moves away. Also, shortsword deals piercing damage, which gives +2 to hit vs all leather clad bandits and hobgoblins plaguing the bg1. A huge boost for a low level assasin with lousy thac0. If you attack a hobgoblin elite from the shadows with whistling sword, you get +2 from weapon, +2 from his leather armor vs your sword, +4 for backstab, +4 for the hobgob holding a bow, and your kit bonus +1 to hit. That is +13 to hit!
Darts are the best way to share the poison damage. Darts of stunning/wounding and elemental darts sold by Thalantyr are also op in bg1. (ee added those darts, right? Not some mod of mine)
In BG2, shortsword is still an excellent choice for Suna Seni's weapon, and Kundane that gives extra attack. You should also get shortbows for tactical ammo:dispel and biting arrows are the best tools in a mage slayer's arsenal. I find crossbows too unwieldy and slow for an assasin. You can get longsword prof. for easy +3 weapons like blade of roses.
Later, staves and two handed weapon style is a must for wicked backstabs with Staff of the Ram+6 and that sweet, sweet x7 modifier of a high lvl assasin.
1 Darts, Short Swords (could sub Short Bows here in place of Darts for higher starting damage)
4 SWS
8 Short Bow (or Darts)
12 Quarterstaff
16 THS
20, 24, 28 TWF (3x with Rogue Rebalancing)
This build seems to have good ranged options and also melee/backstabbing options all the way through.
Also you can get speed weapons long before UAI. In fact Belm is pretty much available as soon as you escape from Irenicus' dungeon. You could even use it without scimitar proficiency and with only two pips in TWF, because that's enough for a second (poisoned) melee attack. I understand you won't be meleeing a lot early on, but sometimes it's difficult to hide after a backstab or simply faster to finish a character (read: mage) you've just poison-stabbed with a few follow-up melee strikes.
I think Staves and a second ranged option are useful btw.
This assumes short bow, short sword and darts at levels 1 and 4.
Nevertheless, I can't see a great deal of point to it in a party run. Dual-wielding is for toe-to-toe melee combat, which isn't where an Assassin is ever going to shine. Stand back, use poison at range with high APR weapons, watch your enemies die. Don't melee at all with your Assassin (except when occasionally forced into it, obviously), because you've got warriors with you who will always be much better at taking care of the melee. Your melee weapons are for the occasional backstab, but otherwise an Assassin should be spending nearly all of his time using ranged weapons (with poison when it counts).
You could also forego darts, and leave those to an NPC. In a full party I don't often have characters switch between different ranged weapons, but rather diversify my party members' proficiencies. Jaheira, Alora, Safana would be examples of good darts throwers in BG1; in BG2 (where darts become less useful for an Assassin compared to shortbows thanks to Tuigan with its 3 apr) Jaheira returns, and Mazzy for example could be very effective even with a single pip in darts. If you skipped both SWS and darts, you could proceed as follows:
1) Shortbows + Staves (go straight for the Martial Staff in Ulgoth's Beard; it has a speed factor of 1, its +3 enchantment compensates for the Elven racial +1 Thac0 bonus while wielding the Whistling Sword +2, and it also deals more damage than the Whistling Sword)
4) THWS (optional, if you want a speed factor of 0 and double your crit chance; skip/postpone if for some reason no one in your party is going to use Belm in early SoA and you want to be able to dual-wield with it)
8) Short Swords (if you want to use the Short Sword of Backstabbing in the endgame)
12) TWF
16) TWF
20) TWF
This looks pretty ideal to me for an Assassin in a party.
I've done a Dart-and-Shortbow-wielding Assassin full saga run, and found that the key factors for getting value out of an Assassin are Poison Weapon and APR.
Even with a mod which enables full proficiency in dual-wielding (which I wasn't using), I don't think I'd actually bother with dual-wielding at all, at any stage. It's just wasting proficiency points on something which is a distraction from effectiveness.
Darts are an excellent weapon for an Assassin through much of the saga. In the first few levels of BG1 (when you've only got one use-per-day of Poison Weapon), and at the end of BG1 (when you've got a decent stock of magical arrows available), there's a good case for a Shortbow (for better hit-chance, especially with magical arrows), but I found through most of BG1 that the way to rack up kills was to spray multiple enemies with Darts using Poison Weapon - never mind the poor missile damage, it's the poison damage that does the work. Fire until target is poisoned, immediately switch to next enemy and fire until poisoned, rinse and repeat - my Assassin got more kills than my warriors this way.
Then in BG2, yes the Tuigan bow is an excellent weapon because its APR is as good as Darts, but get the Crimson Dart +3 early and you can hit with better THAC0 than the Tuigan Bow (assuming mundane arrows) at the same APR. The Tuigan Bow is what you want when you've got some appropriate magical arrows to use, but the rest of the time you're better off with the Crimson Dart, and also the Dart when facing an enemy which needs a +3 weapon to hit (because +3 arrows are very scarce in SoA). Yes, arrows do more missile damage, but again that's secondary because it's still the poison that does most of the work, the key is scoring a hit to get the poison into the enemy. Through BG2:SoA, I found myself using Dart and the Tuigan Bow about equally much. It wasn't until BG2:ToB that I relied on the Shortbow proficiency more of the time than the Dart proficiency, with better arrows now more common (and switching for some enemies to the Gesen Bow instead of the Tuigan), but the Crimson Dart remained useful and the +5 Darts from the Cloak of the Stars were great for particularly tough targets.
Then also in BG2, (throwing) Dagger proficiency is very useful (especially if your Assassin has good STR) because of getting Firetooth +3 in mid-SoA, for when you want to combine a +3 weapon with added elemental damage to your poison ... a great Mage-killer because it punches through both Stoneskin (because elemental) and Mantle (because +3) to disrupt their casting.
Furthermore in BG2, it's likely to be worth having Crossbow proficiency, because there's a ton of stun-bolts available from the Kuo-Toa, and combining those with poison is a dead enemy if he fails his save. (In my own run, I forewent this in favour of Sling, because my Assassin was a high-STR Halfling and the idea was that it gave him an option for high pure missile-damage against poison-immune enemies ... but there aren't very many immune enemies so I didn't use this very often.)
For melee weapons, since this isn't a melee character, what matters are utility for an occasional backstab and bonus effects, not damage in regular melee. Quarterstaff proficiency (and 2HS) is often best for backstabbing, so get it. Also there are more Long Swords with useful bonus effects than any other type of weapon, most especially Daystar (in BG2) against undead, so get Long Sword proficiency early, but also Clubs because Gnasher +2 is a particularly good backstab weapon (for continuing damage after the strike to disrupt casters, even when you've run out of poison). Then Short Swords and Scimitars and Katanas, because there are a few of those with situationally-useful bonus effects as well.
Single Weapon Style is better than a mundane Buckler, because Bucklers don't protect against piercing or (especially relevant) missile damage, whereas 1WS does. Yes, there are magical Bucklers in BG2 ... but only one in all of SoA (unless you mod in some more), which someone else in the party might well want. And of course, 1WS also doubles your critical hit chance for one-handed backstabbing. So yes, for sure you want 1WS, and you want it early (i.e. in BG1) to maximise benefit throughout the saga.
So now that's 12 proficiencies allocated for things which actually play to the strengths of an Assassin, i.e. lots of ranged poisoning and occasional backstabbing. You only get 12 in the whole saga, so that's the lot. No points spare for dual-wielding, and no way would I give up three of these relevant proficiencies just to be able to dual-wield, when melee is not this character's speciality. When you do get forced into melee, you might plausibly try a quick swing with (say) Celestial Fury (for the chance of a stun) or Staff of the Ram (for the chance of a knock-back), but then you should disengage and retreat to range where you belong (or else go invisible and manoeuver for a backstab).
Thus, building for dual-wielding melee is a waste of valuable proficiencies on an Assassin.
- Rogue Rebalancing, which @Aerakar is playing with, adds some excellent Bucklers to the game such as Rogue's Ward and Safeguard, whose usefulness outweighs the benefits of SWS imo.
- Longsword proficiency will never be a waste of a pip but they're either mainly good for the secondary effects, which do not require proficiency, rather than for actual backstabbing or fighting for an Assassin (Dragon Slayer, Namarra, Ras), or best used by a character with multiple APR (Answerer). I don't think longsword proficiency will offer an Assassin anything extra compared to other melee proficiencies already planned, such as Staves, Short Swords, and maybe Clubs and Scimitars. The same can be said of Katanas. There's one good (not great) Katana in SoA, which is best used by a character with multiple APR (Valygar), another nice one for Fighter/Mages, and a nifty one in ToB (late SoA) which is best used for its protections, e.g. quickly equip it when a Finger of Death is cast at you, rather than for fighting/backstabbing
So forgoing only SWS, Longswords and Katanas, or even just two out of those three would already allow @Aerakar to dual-wield with two (or three) pips in TWF instead, and a speed weapon in the off-hand.
Having said that, if your Assassin remained relevant in combat throughout the saga relying on ranged weapons and backstabs alone, and never really missed two weapon melee proficiency then I'm the last to argue against your argument against dual-wielding. Besides, stylistically an Assassin wielding a single short blade is appealing.
But bear in mind that, for a character whose ambition with a melee weapon is to score a backstab, doubling the chance of a critical hit is a significant benefit. To be better than that, those RR bucklers must grant an extra backstab multiplier or themselves increase the critical range. Otherwise, the answer is to use the bucklers when throwing Darts, but take off the buckler (and use 1WS instead) when going for a one-handed backstab. So he still wants 1WS. I disagree. Yes, there are some bonus effects on Long Swords (and other weapons) which don't require proficiency, but there are numerous other bonus effects which apply only when the sword is actually used (in the case of an Assassin, probably for a backstab).
Burning Earth has enhanced THAC0 and damage against various enemy types, plus elemental damage as well, and can now be imported with your party from BG1ee.
If you don't like Burning Earth's elemental fire bonus, you can instead import Varscona for an elemental cold bonus.
Daystar has enhanced THAC0 and damage against all Evil and even more bonus against undead, quite apart from its Sunray spell (which admittedly doesn't demand proficiency).
Blackrazor (if playing Evil) does a level drain on the enemy, and health and haste bonus on the wielder.
Angurvadal offers both bonus STR and elemental fire.
The Equalizer has THAC0 and damage bonuses against various alignments, plus bonus charm and confusion immunities which are often relevant in mid-combat. Likewise Adjatha has bonus charm and domination immunities, and Blackrazor has bonus charm and fear immunities, which again are often useful mid-combat. In the case of the Assassin, such immunities can be a life-saver when enemies are still standing after a backstab attempt!
All of the above are Long Sword bonuses which apply when you're actually using the weapon, and therefore benefit greatly from proficiency. Other weapon types don't have so many weapons offering such a range of bonuses to the wielder. Additionally, we're talking about an Elf character, so there's a racial bonus too. Certainly there are some handy bonus effects in those other classes, but added together they offer only about the same number of relevant bonuses as Long Swords do alone.
So yes, Long Swords offer an Assassin extra, and he should therefore take it early. Indeed there are a few good Katanas, but yes they're often better used by other classes.
However, it's perfectly possible to swap a weapon to an Assassin for a backstab and then give it back to the warrior using it in the follow-up melee. In particular, Celestial Fury's stun is particularly useful if a backstab fails to kill the enemy immediately. A proficiency for doing this isn't an Assassin's top priority, but it's worth being capable of doing it. Doing that would nerf his Assassin because he'd preclude himself from all sorts of powerful bonus effects, for which all three of those proficiencies are important to an Assassin. In addition, however, you're advocating that sacrifice in order to obtain something which is pretty irrelevant. An Assassin is not a melee character, that's what the party's warriors are for, and therefore any time when he might be able to use dual-wielding (i.e. toe-to-toe melee) is a time when he ought instead to be retreating to range (or occasionally preparing a backstab).
You're still thinking solo, I'm afraid. The only time when dual-wielding is worth anything at all to an Assassin is when you've got no choice but to do your own melee, as when soloing. In a party run with a couple of proper warriors, any points in dual-wielding are a complete waste of valuable proficiencies for the Assassin. Oh yes, absolutely! Not even very many backstabs (that x7 multiplier is a comparatively minor bonus), it's the ranged poison which is the real power of the Assassin kit. It was quite eye-opening, I hadn't realised how much difference it makes until I tried it. Dominated the game in the earlier stages, fell back somewhat in the later stages but still making a strong contribution right to the end. No, certainly din't miss it, very rarely in a situation where it'd have been relevant.
This buckler is made from a darksteel alloy which was tinged with trace amounts of mithril and silver. Although its surface appears to be extremely polished, the shield somehow seems to draw in the light, rather than reflecting it. Upon closer examination, several enchantments which are commonly attributed to Mask's priesthood can be detected. It is likely that the Shadowlord himself blessed this item with his touch, granting it the power to hide and guard his followers from any dangers which they may encounter in their risky professions.
STATISTICS:
Equipped Abilities:
+2 bonus to all saves vs. death
+10% to Hide in Shadows
Special Abilities:
Casts Improved Invisibility 1x/day
Armor Class Bonus: 3
Special: No Missile/Piercing Attack Protection
Weight: 1
Requires: 4 Strength
Only Usable By:
Thief
Bard
Safeguard
These consecrated bucklers are often wielded by high clerics and temple guards of Moradin, the creator god of the dwarven race. The Soul Forger is strength and force of will embodied and his weapons, armor, and tools are virtual extensions of his own incarnate being. The enchantments within this shield bestow Moradin's blessing upon its wielder, guiding his weapon to strike surely and guarding him from harm in times of dire need. Many of these bucklers were lost in the battle of Dorn's Deep after the invading orcs razed and pillaged the mighty dwarven stronghold.
STATISTICS:
Equipped Abilities:
Bless
Special Abilities:
Casts Sanctuary 1x/day
Armor Class Bonus: 3
Special: No Missile/Piercing Attack Protection
Weight: 2
Requires: 4 Strength
Unusable By:
Mage
They are awesome, I would prefer to use one instead of using SWS if only for the AC bonus.
And I'm going to agree with him about dualwielding, I think it's important for an Assassin because, as you said it yourself @Gallowglass , what's important for an Assassin is Poison Weapon, and thus APR.
You will be able to use at least Scarlet Ninja-To because no one will use it except a Thief with UAI, but you could also use Belm or Kundane.
Early on it's going to be great already, but it can be even stronger later in the game.
With the gauntlets and two speed weapons + Improved Haste + Time Traps + Poison Weapon, you will unleash an 9 APR dualwielding Assassin with poisoned attacks during a 70 seconds Time Stop.
I would skip Staves, THS and Crossbows (they have too low APR for an Assassin in my opinion) instead.
But I would also pick Short Swords early in BG1 because with Rogue Rebalancing you can use the revised Short Sword of Backstabbing (and this is going to be THE weapon for backstabbing).
In PnP AD&D this sword is supposed to have some extra features when wielded by a Thief. Here's a passage from the The Complete Thief's Handbook:
"Short sword of Backstabbing: In the hands of any character this is a +2 magical weapon, but in the hands of a thief it is especially potent. When a thief makes a backstab attempt with this short sword, it allows him to attack as if four levels higher than his actual experience level, with corresponding improvements in THAC0, attack rolls, and damage multiplier on a successful hit."
Based on that, the Baldur's Gate 2 version of the item was altered in the following manner:
The Shadow's Blade was created to be the perfect assassin's tool. It is highly sought after by any who settle differences with a blade, and many that possess it do not do so for long. In the hands of any character this sword acts as a standard +3 magical weapon, but in the hands of a Thief it becomes especially potent granting him an additional bonus to hit and increasing his backstab multiplier.
STATISTICS:
Equipped Abilities (Thieves only):
Increases backstab multiplier by 1
Provides an additional +2 THAC0 bonus
THAC0: +3 bonus
Damage: 1D6 +3
Damage type piercing
Weight: 3
Speed Factor: 0
Proficiency Type: Short Sword
Type: 1-handed
Requires: 5 Strength
Not Usable By:
Druid
Cleric
Mage
It can be upgraded to a +5 version in ToB.
As @Gallowglass originally stated, I tend to agree that without the RR mod and 2-3 pips of rogue TWF, dual-wield does not make any sense for an assassin. With RR though, dual-wield seems a valid tactic whether solo or in a party, esp. at mid or higher levels with speed weapons and a high strength character to improve THACO. 3 or even 4 APR and poison use would mean 3-4 poisons per round not counting the poisons from any weaponry in use. If high strength then THACO could rival ranged THACO for an Assassin. There is a +4 short sword with poison also obtainable in late SOA from the RR mod after a very difficult added (but avoidable) encounter that coupled with the scarlet ninja-to after UAI can mean 3 poisons per round when dual-wielding, and 6 if poison weapon is activated, so this is in some ways superior to darts of wounding as both damage and THACO is better; it also at least equals and may surpass the Crimson Dart or Tuigan for the same reasons.
Of course one benefit of ranged is that it is ranged, and not melee, and you are not left hanging in the wind after your back-stab and forced to fight face-to-face with the crappy thief THACO. And hit and fade for another backstab is often a better tactic in many situations. And of course the various darts and arrows have their own great effects, i.e. status-effects, elemental damage, poison, etc. But pulling a back-stab and then using two blades and poison to continue the fight or finish off a weakened mage would still seem quite useful in a lot situations for high-strength builds, e.g. 1/2-orcs, elves, anyone using giant belts.
In regards to SWS, I myself have found this useful in past playthroughs and it definitely helps until TWF can be gained at higher levels if using the RR mod. It would seem worthwhile to me to take this at early levels as one can use it throughout the saga, e.g. TWF may not be a viable tactic until level 16 unless one foregoes or postpones something, which is through all of BG1 and the first part of BG2. I think it comes down to whether or not an assassin will focus on blades or staves as his/her primary weapon. If staves, then better to skip SWS and go for THS immediately as @Blackraven suggested. If a thief prefers to focus on blades then perhaps better to take SWS for max benefit at those low levels and take quarterstaff later for BG2 when resistant enemies multiply.
I myself used to hate quarterstaffs on my thieves and considered it an aberration of the rules from my AD&D P&P days in the 80's, but have somewhat come around to them for non-shorty thieves, if for no other reason than mechanically they are excellent due to the damage type (crushing), the reach (kiting, attacking over your warriors), and last but not least the staffs available throughout the saga (BG: QS+3, Staff of striking, BG2: +4 staff, again multiple staves of striking, staff of the ram, etc.). But I still prefer blades for aesthetic and role-play reasons on all of my thieves and use staffs in a supporting situational role, e.g. against enemies with resistances or for situational high damage backstabs, i.e. staff of striking.
If I skip weapon styles I can get all 4 weapons in the first game: short swords, short bows, quarterstaff, darts, then expand with weapon styles in BG2. This would seem to give the widest number of tactical options, e.g. poison arrows, poison darts, staff of striking, RR short sword of backstabbing +3. I could then go for THS and either SWS or dual-wield in BG2. The one thing that annoys me with dual-wield is the inventory switching and this will be even worse for an assassin using darts/bows.
- I've also grown fond of BG2Tweaks's weapon class revision; its placement of ninja-tos into the short swords category makes the short sword route all the more appealing.
- Like you, I originally disliked staves on thieves (except cleric/thieves), but I like your approach of using them situationally. A thief, possessing neither magic nor muscle to decide a battle in their favor, needs to be pragmatic
- If you're like me, you'll get used to inventory switching, as I've currently become used to having to access the thieving button from behind the innate abilities button.
- Have fun!