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Dual-classing Imoen to a mage (SPOILER ALERT FOR BGII:EE)

PugPugPugPug Member Posts: 560
As much as I hated losing her as a thief, I hope this is dealt with. I suppose they could make it mandatory (as it should be) by having some sort of quest scene "destroy" Imoen and replace her with a dual-classed Imoen. No way to duplicate the thieving stats you have given her, as far as I know, though.

Perhaps Dynaheir is killed and everyone is afraid Minsc will go into a berserker rage if he finds out, so Imoen learns magic and casts an illusion on herself to look like Dynaheir, but Boo is not so easily fooled.

She also has to get her Belt of Plot Protection, but maybe that'll just be an unexplained gift from Irenicus.

Post edited by Dee on
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Comments

  • JuliusBorisovJuliusBorisov Member, Administrator, Moderator, Developer Posts: 22,015
    edited January 2016
  • KorbuKorbu Member Posts: 61
    edited January 2016
    Yeah, i never did like how Imoen dual-classed to Mage. It's not like BG 2 ever had a shortage of Mages, between Edwin, Aerie, Jan or Nalia (whom also was a dual-classed Thief/Mage). It did however, have a serious shortage of pure Thieves

    (until Hexxat), considering Yoshimo unavoidably dies permanently.

    Post edited by JuliusBorisov on
    jackjackkillerrabbithelmo1977
  • jackjackjackjack Member Posts: 3,251
    You may want to spoiler tag that last phrase!

  • LifatLifat Member Posts: 353
    jackjack said:

    You may want to spoiler tag that last phrase!

    Look... I think protecting people from spoilers is a nice thing to do and generally speaking I'm all for demanding a spoiler free environment. But that spoiler free environment should have a time limit!
    Now, BG2 was first released 15 years ago but I get that the EE-release is a lot younger and has brought in a new crowd so in a sense we should really count it from that games release... BG2:EE is nearly 4 years old. I think that is a fair time limit where you can no longer expect forums about the game to be spoiler free.

    atcDave
  • killerrabbitkillerrabbit Member Posts: 402
    Yeah, it seems that the expansion will explain why she dual classed. Which will be okay but I was hoping that we could opt to keep her as a single class thief. BG2 has plenty of spell casters but needs a good or neutral single classed thief. (and a good single class cleric)

    BelgarathMTHtypo_tilly
  • YupImMadBroYupImMadBro Member, Mobile Tester Posts: 347
    Lifat said:

    jackjack said:

    You may want to spoiler tag that last phrase!

    Look... I think protecting people from spoilers is a nice thing to do and generally speaking I'm all for demanding a spoiler free environment. But that spoiler free environment should have a time limit!
    Now, BG2 was first released 15 years ago but I get that the EE-release is a lot younger and has brought in a new crowd so in a sense we should really count it from that games release... BG2:EE is nearly 4 years old. I think that is a fair time limit where you can no longer expect forums about the game to be spoiler free.
    I disagree. I just introduced my roommate to Baldur's Gate for the first time, this week and he is now in love with BG2. He's really into Japanese culture and so far, really likes Yoshimo. If he stumbles into the forums and sees that spoiler, he would be very disappointed. We have to remember that even though we have all played the games through over and over, it only takes one comment to ruin the experience for a new player.

    On topic, I am disappointed that we may not have Imoen for the entirety for Dragonspear. I always use her in BG but I rarely bother with her in BG2 since I complete the majority of the game before I attempt to save her.

    jackjack
  • JuliusBorisovJuliusBorisov Member, Administrator, Moderator, Developer Posts: 22,015
    @Lifat One of the main site rules is "Don't Spoil the Fun.:

    The game is old. Fourteen years old as of this year, which means that most of the people who are active on these forums have played the game at least once. That being said, this is not the case for everyone. There are measures everyone can take to avoid spoiling things for those who haven't experienced the game yet. If you're going to ruin the plot, announce it beforehand.

    One of the great things about this game's release is that it's exposing a lot of new players to what the game has to offer. That great thing is ruined, and not in a small way, when elements of the game's plot and character stories are announced or bandied about with no care for who's listening. So the short version is, if you're going to discuss the game's plot or anything else that might "spoil the fun" for somebody, wrap the content in spoiler tags.

    https://forums.beamdog.com/discussion/10852/site-rules-mind-the-gap

    I've added a spoiler tag, @Korbu

    jackjackcmk24
  • jackjackjackjack Member Posts: 3,251
    Yeah, there are still people discovering this series and that is a major plot twist. It's simple courtesy :)

    JuliusBorisov
  • DJKajuruDJKajuru Member Posts: 3,300
    I think that Imoen does a great job as a mage.

    That's all I wanted to say.

    AstroBryGuy
  • urickurick Member Posts: 5
    This new game could have a system with importation of saves. All the save, I mean... like Mass Effect. So the game could use our choice about Imoen. Who turned it into a mage, then so be it. Or who choose to leave it as a thief, then ok.
    Sorry for my terrible english :neutral:

    killerrabbithelmo1977
  • LifatLifat Member Posts: 353
    urick said:

    This new game could have a system with importation of saves. All the save, I mean... like Mass Effect. So the game could use our choice about Imoen. Who turned it into a mage, then so be it. Or who choose to leave it as a thief, then ok.
    Sorry for my terrible english :neutral:

    I sincerely doubt they'd do that. Imoens new-found magic is a major plot device in bg2, so she needs to be a mage in that game.

    JuliusBorisovFardragoncmk24Aerakar
  • JuliusBorisovJuliusBorisov Member, Administrator, Moderator, Developer Posts: 22,015
    Also, Chris Avellon in his Matt Chat said that SoD actually explains the changes in certain NPCs (just not to give a certain name), so I'm sure a lot of SoD content is exactly devoted to Imoen and to what happened to her and why.

    FardragonAerakar
  • DJKajuruDJKajuru Member Posts: 3,300
    edited January 2016
    bengoshi said:

    Also, Chris Avellon in his Matt Chat said that SoD actually explains the changes in certain NPCs (just not to give a certain name), so I'm sure a lot of SoD content is exactly devoted to Imoen and to what happened to her and why.

    It seems quite clear that they also explain Viconia's sudden facelift before moving to Athkatla.

    Post edited by DJKajuru on
    Montresor_SP
  • ElendarElendar Member Posts: 831
    edited January 2016
    Korbu said:

    Yeah, i never did like how Imoen dual-classed to Mage. It's not like BG 2 ever had a shortage of Mages, between Edwin, Aerie, Jan or Nalia (whom also was a dual-classed Thief/Mage). It did however, have a serious shortage of pure Thieves

    (until Hexxat), considering Yoshimo unavoidably dies permanently.


    Thats because pure thieves are pointless.

    edit: Yoshimo is a bounty hunter, not a vanilla thief like Imoen, so isn't quite as horrible. The kits for single class thieves are okay, but Imoen as a single class vanilla thief would be a pretty bad character. Besides, you can never have enough mages!

    DJKajuru
  • killerrabbitkillerrabbit Member Posts: 402
    Korbu said:

    Thats because pure thieves are pointless.

    Depends on how you play. I think pure thieves are both essential and fun. Traps, backstab, use any item . . . Have Imoen scout, get behind the boss, try to backstab and then bring it the rest of the party.

    Good fun.

    Aerakar
  • FardragonFardragon Member Posts: 4,511

    Korbu said:

    Thats because pure thieves are pointless.

    Depends on how you play. I think pure thieves are both essential and fun. Traps, backstab, use any item . . . Have Imoen scout, get behind the boss, try to backstab and then bring it the rest of the party.

    Good fun.
    Then rez her.

    Montresor_SPkillerrabbitFaydark
  • LifatLifat Member Posts: 353
    It is a bit of a moot point. Beamdog simply isn't allowed to make such changes to Imoen. It is in their contract.
    Personally speaking, I do think pure thieves are an absolute waste. Multiclass fighter/thief does everything better than pure thief. I do think that there is a general lack of multiclassed thieves, because dual-classed stops the thief progression which is a little annoying to me.

    Fardragon
  • YamchaYamcha Member Posts: 484
    edited January 2016
    bengoshi said:

    There's a theory that Imoen won't be available as a player character till the later stages of SoD, and that the plot of SoD will directly adress her dualclassing into a mage:

    I'll dual class her into a mage long before the addon content will begin (level 3, 4 ,5 or so), and then what? How will SoD react to that possibility.

    So I highly doubt those theories. (or not, I may have to look thru those linked threads :D )

  • FardragonFardragon Member Posts: 4,511
    edited January 2016
    Yamcha said:

    bengoshi said:

    There's a theory that Imoen won't be available as a player character till the later stages of SoD, and that the plot of SoD will directly adress her dualclassing into a mage:

    I'll dual class her into a mage long before the addon content will begin (level 3, 4 ,5 or so), and then what? How will SoD react to that possibility.

    So I highly doubt those theories. (or not, I may have to look thru those linked threads :D )
    It's quite possible to add conditional dialogue that detects if Imoen already has mage levels at the beginning of SoD, however it isn't really needed.

    Wise Old Mage: "Hello young Imoen, I sense that the Magic is strong with you, would you like to become my apprentice?"

    Imoen: "Oh, gee! Can I?! Can I?!" [Imoen leaves the party]


    Of course, since BG2 can't be changed, she will still have to have 7 Thief levels at the beginning of BG2. It's possible that if she rejoins the party towards the end of SoD, then her stats will reflect her BG2 starting stats rather than he BG1 finishing stats.

    JuliusBorisov
  • killerrabbitkillerrabbit Member Posts: 402
    @Elendar Sure a fighter-thief is a stronger combo. And a kensai-mage is stronger than a thief-mage and so on. But there isn't a fighter-thief or a kensai-mage NPC in SOA -- so why are we are comparing an NPC to the PC? Allowing the PC to be stronger than the NPCs is a good, standard design decision.

    The only multi class thief in SOA is Jan -- and he is great -- but he gets his HLAs late in game.

    Single class thieves progress faster than any other class and they get their abilities before anyone else. Single class thieves are the second strongest class in TOB -- spike trap spam, invisibility ring, backstab -- the final seal battle is over before it starts.

    Low strength? That's the easiest buff in the game! Strength is a dump stat.

    And if you have to rez Imoen ur doin it rong. Rong!

    Use a ring / potion to go invisible again, use the boots of speed to get to a corner and switch to shortbow . . .

    And for mages Neera is much better, Edwin is the strongest mage in the game and Nalia probably has better spells and more experience than spellhold Imoen.

    And I just liked BG1 Imoen. Best friend that served an essential function in the party. I would be nice to have her back.

    Yamcha
  • GreenWarlockGreenWarlock Member Posts: 1,354
    @Elandir pointless?! Last time I checked it was 25 points/level ;)

    killerrabbitGrum
  • GrammarsaladGrammarsalad Member Posts: 2,577
    urick said:

    This new game could have a system with importation of saves. All the save, I mean... like Mass Effect. So the game could use our choice about Imoen. Who turned it into a mage, then so be it. Or who choose to leave it as a thief, then ok.
    Sorry for my terrible english :neutral:

    I could see this as a mod, especially an EET mod. This might involve giving her an unremovable, inexhaustible x of magic missiles, perhaps (doesn't she already wear an unremovable collar, or something?) And your English is fine. :)

    killerrabbit
  • killerrabbitkillerrabbit Member Posts: 402
    ^ exactly.

    Imoen doesn't need to be a mage for the SOA plot to work. She only needs to fire a magic missile. And all classes can use a magic missile wand,.

    Give Imoen1 a wand that she can't drop and/or have her pickpocket the wand from the party. She fires the wand, the cowled mages show up and everything works. Imoen gets arrested for casting a spell but she is still a thief.

    A few ToB dialogues would need to altered -- adding some if / then statements and that's it.

    I know that some say that beamdog can't do this because of contractual reasons but I've not read the contract itself and I am skeptical of claims made people who haven't read it either.

    Again, it looks like Imoen is going to be an NPC studying to be a mage and that will be *okay* but it would be that much better to have her as a thief.

  • FaydarkFaydark Member Posts: 279
    @killerrabbit I don't have time atm to go chasing up links for you, but various Beamdog people have referred to the contract(s) in various interviews and forum posts over the years. If I recall, the gist of the contract(s) in regards to NPC dialogue is that they aren't allowed to modify existing dialogue, but they can add new dialogue for interaction with their new companions and npcs etc.

    I realise that's not "straight from the horses mouth" like you probably wanted, but it's not speculation or rumor, I assure you.

    cmk24JuliusBorisovkillerrabbit
  • FardragonFardragon Member Posts: 4,511

    urick said:

    This new game could have a system with importation of saves. All the save, I mean... like Mass Effect. So the game could use our choice about Imoen. Who turned it into a mage, then so be it. Or who choose to leave it as a thief, then ok.
    Sorry for my terrible english :neutral:

    I could see this as a mod, especially an EET mod. This might involve giving her an unremovable, inexhaustible x of magic missiles, perhaps (doesn't she already wear an unremovable collar, or something?) And your English is fine. :)
    Beamdog are NOT ALOWED to make changes to existing BG2 characters.

  • ALIENALIEN Member Posts: 1,186
    urick said:

    This new game could have a system with importation of saves. All the save, I mean... like Mass Effect. So the game could use our choice about Imoen. Who turned it into a mage, then so be it. Or who choose to leave it as a thief, then ok.
    Sorry for my terrible english :neutral:

    EET is what you looking for :smile:

  • cmk24cmk24 Member Posts: 605
    Faydark said:

    @killerrabbit I don't have time atm to go chasing up links for you, but various Beamdog people have referred to the contract(s) in various interviews and forum posts over the years. If I recall, the gist of the contract(s) in regards to NPC dialogue is that they aren't allowed to modify existing dialogue, but they can add new dialogue for interaction with their new companions and npcs etc.

    I realise that's not "straight from the horses mouth" like you probably wanted, but it's not speculation or rumor, I assure you.

    Here is the link you are talking about: https://forums.beamdog.com/discussion/1588/bg-ee-please-read-list-of-things-that-cant-be-done/p1

    JuliusBorisovkillerrabbit
  • killerrabbitkillerrabbit Member Posts: 402
    @Faydark @cmk24 Thanks for the links.

    1. What I am proposing would be consistent with adding new content -- the criteria in the thread. There are only a few dialogues in ToB -- none in SoA -- that would need an if / then statement. I don't code IE but there has to be some equivalent of an if / then.

    If Imoen class = "mage" then dialogue = " . . . " If Imoen class = "thief" then dialogue = " . . . " Original dialogues are still there there -- in unaltered form -- for anyone using Imoen as a mage.

    2. And yes, I always distrust secondary sources; thanks for getting that. If you haven't seen a contract you can't be certain of its meanings. IRL I hear people misinterpret documents every day.

    @Fardragon You are incorrect. Full stop. Putting your words in caps DOESN'T make you correct. The caps lock key has many mysterious powers but transforming error into truth is not one of them.

    And this makes my point about needing to read the contract. Anomen has a long, enjoyable series of dialogues with Neera. These conversations were not in the original. This is to say his content is different in EE. Different in EE = change.

    Anomen has changed (improved) in a manner that is presumably consistent with the contract.

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