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No Re-Load Challenge end? Spell Trap impact?

NoloirNoloir Member, Mobile Tester Posts: 241
Doing a No-Reload challenge with a DSorc. A relatively great character with tons of survivability. After finishing the harper challenge in the docks district I went to the Thumb's Inn to defeat the hidden pirates. With the recently acquired Staff of The Magi I decided to experiment with Spell Trap instead of cheesing against the pirate mage with invisibility. The mage cast hold and the spell hit while spell trap was active. Isn't Spell Trap designed to absorb enemy spells while increasing personal spells? So would this be a glitch?

Comments

  • semiticgodsemiticgod Member, Moderator Posts: 10,695
    Spell Trap/Deflection/Turning only block single-target spells--those with a projectile that only ever affects one critter, with the exception of the Agannazar's Scorcher projectile, which hits multiple targets but is still affected by Spell Trap/Deflection/Turning effects.

    Hold Person has to be cast on a visible critter to work, like all single-target spells, but its projectile has a slight area effect, which is why you can hold multiple targets if they're close to each other.

    So, improved invisibility will block the spell from being cast at you directly (unless the caster is a lich or shares the lich's ability to see through invisibility without a spell), but Spell Trap/Deflection/Turning spells will not. (Minor) Globe of Invulnerability and Spell Immunity: Enchantment will also block it.

    You're not the first person that this happened to, incidentally. I recall there was another run that ended not long ago for precisely this reason.

    JuliusBorisovlolien
  • NoloirNoloir Member, Mobile Tester Posts: 241
    edited January 2016

    Spell Trap/Deflection/Turning only block single-target spells--those with a projectile that only ever affects one critter, with the exception of the Agannazar's Scorcher projectile, which hits multiple targets but is still affected by Spell Trap/Deflection/Turning effects.

    Hold Person has to be cast on a visible critter to work, like all single-target spells, but its projectile has a slight area effect, which is why you can hold multiple targets if they're close to each other.

    So, improved invisibility will block the spell from being cast at you directly (unless the caster is a lich or shares the lich's ability to see through invisibility without a spell), but Spell Trap/Deflection/Turning spells will not. (Minor) Globe of Invulnerability and Spell Immunity: Enchantment will also block it.

    You're not the first person that this happened to, incidentally. I recall there was another run that ended not long ago for precisely this reason.

    Then there should be an updated description for Spell Trap's actual ability. It's misleading. They way it's written can make a player think it's a high level version of Globe of Invulnerability that absorbs all spells up to level 30 on contact. No specific mention of working soley against single target. Fire arrow and finger of death are mention but there was no specificity. Although Hold Person has a spread effect it's not a really area effect spell like Stinking Cloud of Cloudkill. It requires an active target before being cast.

  • gorgonzolagorgonzola Member Posts: 1,703
    Noloir said:

    Doing a No-Reload challenge with
    ..................
    ..................
    cheesing against the pirate mage with invisibility.

    I understand that what happened is really annoyng, in a no reaload and agree about how the description of this and other spells is misleading.
    A reliable lore about BG2 magic can be obtained only with experimentation, a lot of reading here and in the net and maybe using modding tools. The manual and the ingame description are only starting points.

    I don't understand cheesing with invisibility. Improved invisibility is lev4, is supposed to do something more then the lev2 spell or the lev3 that can make invisible the whole party. Blocking the spell from being cast at you directly is a part of that something. Using Improoved Invisibility as a spell protection, even if it don't protect you from the spell but from being targeted whit the spell, is a completely legit tactic, is the main reason why people use this lev4 spell instead of a lev2 spell. I don't see any cheese, unless you call cheese a clever use of a spell for what it is intended to do.
    Using divine Magic Resistance to lower enemy MR is cheese, there you bend a spell to do something different from what it is supposed to do.

    semiticgod
  • NoloirNoloir Member, Mobile Tester Posts: 241

    Noloir said:

    Doing a No-Reload challenge with
    ..................
    ..................
    cheesing against the pirate mage with invisibility.

    I understand that what happened is really annoyng, in a no reaload and agree about how the description of this and other spells is misleading.
    A reliable lore about BG2 magic can be obtained only with experimentation, a lot of reading here and in the net and maybe using modding tools. The manual and the ingame description are only starting points.

    I don't understand cheesing with invisibility. Improved invisibility is lev4, is supposed to do something more then the lev2 spell or the lev3 that can make invisible the whole party. Blocking the spell from being cast at you directly is a part of that something. Using Improoved Invisibility as a spell protection, even if it don't protect you from the spell but from being targeted whit the spell, is a completely legit tactic, is the main reason why people use this lev4 spell instead of a lev2 spell. I don't see any cheese, unless you call cheese a clever use of a spell for what it is intended to do.
    Using divine Magic Resistance to lower enemy MR is cheese, there you bend a spell to do something different from what it is supposed to do.
    Agreed. The cheesing wasn't in regard to Improved Invisibility but in reference to Staff of The Magi. Merely clicking on the staff will cause a character to effectively become invisible at will at any time. As functional as it is over using that aspect of the staff's ability is somewhat cheesy. It's akin to using a Shadow Dancer's hide in plan site everytime it's targetted via spell or ranged attack. There's no AI counter for that for 80% of the monsters in-game without true sight or innate scrying.

  • ArunsunArunsun Member Posts: 1,571
    Well, since Hold Person states it affects targets within 7,5ft of its primary target it is clearly stated as an AoE, and thus not stopped by Spell trap, though the 1 target and enemies within 7,5ft is disturbing indeed. Considering the fact you could easily have won (with invisibility cheese) and it's not crystal clear in the description of the spell, I would make an exception this one time concerning the no-reload challenge.

  • gorgonzolagorgonzola Member Posts: 1,703
    @Noloir, @Arunsun.
    Imo the spell description is crystal clear,
    "Caster chooses 1 creature as a victim all creatures within 5 feet are also affected"
    or, in other words, "the spell must taget someone" and "the spell effect affects an AoE" wich is a common situation in BG2 magic, Dispell Magic do the same, Insect Plague does something similar but not identical.
    In BG2 magic differences like "what the spell can target" and "what the spell will affect" are not cavilling, are important things if someone wants to use it in the proper way.

    What is not so crystal clear is the Spell Trap description that only tell a misleading "The spell trap can absorb any level of spell, from one to nine". And this being misleading is only because is not "absorb any level of spell targeting the recipient" or "absorb any level of spell affecting the recipient". Again cavilling, but relevant.

    As the Spell Trap description is not crystal clear I can agree with Arunsun about making an exception, even if such exceptions usually are only allowed in case of bugs and other stuff due to engine and not to player error.

    About the SoTM thing I continue to think that is not cheese, but a clever use of the (really OP) item as intended by developers. I really appreciate Tactics Twisted Rune because there Layenne uses her staff as every clever mage uses it, casts and disappear. And SoTM or being a Swadowdancer is not needed to waste enemy mage's spell disappearing while he is casting.
    At low levels my thieves routinely do it, first they lure mage's helpers one by one and backstab them multiple times to death, then going visible near the border of mage's area of sight wait him to begin casting. As long as the casting animation begins one step, hide in shadows, spell wasted. Repeat.
    When the mage stands, protected only by his stoneskin, his helpers gone, his spellbok empty, is an easy game, some ranged attacks to consume the skins and as long as the mage's toon change color hide and backstab. A low level thief can kill a much stronger mage with much stronger helpers, using only mundane equipement, suffering almost no damage.
    No cheese at all, just sound and clever tactics to use the true potential of a class. Or of an OP item as SoTM.

  • ArunsunArunsun Member Posts: 1,571
    @gorgonzola : Dispel Magic and Insect plague are not the same considering how they behave (I mean, besides their respective effect)
    Dispel magic can be cast on the ground, it does not require an actual target on which you center the AoE. Insect plague can be resisted (with magic resistance) and if it is it will not spread. Unless I am mistaken, hold person will hold the target in the AoE even if the main target resist the spell. The effect is an AoE centered on a target, which is quite different from a single target spell that then spread or an AoE centered on whatever point you want. This rather unique status of targeted but not single target spell makes it not so clear IMO. The only other spell I can think of with a similar behaviour is the SSM sun soulray.

  • gorgonzolagorgonzola Member Posts: 1,703
    @Arunsun, about DM (and RM) you are correct as they target an area centred on a point on the ground and not a person or monster, I did know this very well and was a mistake, may be due to temporary lack of concentration, chosing it as an example. I apologize.
    About Insect Plague I don't think that MR is relevant concerning what I told, as it target 1 person an then (if that person doesn't resist or is immune) spread to a certain area affecting up to a certain number of enemies. It target 1 and affect an area. I told similar but not identical because it affects up to a certain number of persons in the area and not everything the area.
    Both Hold Person and Insect Plague have to target a person, if all the enemies are invisible you can not cast those spells, but both affect an area, they can hit you also if you are not directly targeted, just because you are near a targeted person.
    So they are different from PW Blind that target a person and affects (only) the same person or fireball that target an area ( you can cast it to hit invisible foe) and affects an area, they share the targeting feature of PW B. and the affecting feature of FB.
    "what the spell can target" and "what the spell will affect".

  • subtledoctorsubtledoctor Member Posts: 9,692
    This whole thread just makes clear that everyone needs to be using Spell Revisions v4, which makes Soell
    Deflection and Spell Trap block AoE effects.

    Just sayin'...

    semiticgodgorgonzolalolien
  • jinxed75jinxed75 Member Posts: 157

    This whole thread just makes clear that everyone needs to be using Spell Revisions v4, which makes Soell
    Deflection and Spell Trap block AoE effects.

    Just sayin'...

    SR just trades certain oddities for others, i.e it nerfs a couple of spells only to OP a bunch of others, that didn't need it.
    Using SR is a matter of personal taste, not a necessity.

    gorgonzolaGotural
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