Dual-Classing Balance
OssiaN
Member Posts: 16
I think dual classing is way overpowered and it should be limited to pure, un-kitted classes.
So no more kensai/mage or swashbuckler/mage, but fighter/mage or thief/mage!
So no more kensai/mage or swashbuckler/mage, but fighter/mage or thief/mage!
3
Comments
1. Dual-classing is the only advantage humans have. It's made to balance out the human race. Don't remove it.
2. Dual-classing is too powerful and can never be considered balanced. Remove it!
3. Dual-classing makes no sense.
4. If you don't like it, don't dual class! The feature is optional! You don't have to change the hard coding of my game to get the game you want.
5. Please see following threads on the balance of dual class and kits:
http://forum.baldursgate.com/discussion/comment/75446/#Comment_75446
http://forum.baldursgate.com/discussion/3004/fat-thread-multiclassing-and-such
http://forum.baldursgate.com/discussion/2796/double-kits/p1
http://forum.baldursgate.com/discussion/comment/71958/#Comment_71958
I find it funny how the kensai/swashbuckler are the major reasons for most people being opposed to dual-classing.
By the way this change would not deny the human race its advantage, it would only balance it a little and would give pureclasses a purpose in the game.
By the way, what do you think of the change?
And that is something I would say if other people picking a particular class combo could actually affect my gameplay experience. Seriously guys, do we need to have this discussion again?
First off, it's really not that bad at all in BG1. The lowish level cap prevents it from totally stealing the show. Multi-classing is often the better option if you really need one guy to do it all for you.
Two, the bonuses are neat but don't break the game. A Kensai at 13 has +4 to hit and damage. That's pretty good, but he can't use armor or robes like a dual-classed regular fighter/mage can. That means no Robes of Vecna. That means no Aslyferund Elven Chain +5.
I know they can't use bracers but does anyone recall if Kensai cannot use gloves either? If they can't use any hand item slots, there's a lot of really good equipment a regular fighter/mage could use there which would help get at least his thac0 closer. I really can't recall though so if this doesn't apply, ignore it.
That Kensai/Mage is going to be deadlier in melee than a fighter/mage is. But guess what? It's hardly a cut and dry "This is just better than that!" A regular fighter/mage has robes of Vecna and therefore faster spellcasting and is therefore a better raw caster than the kensai/mage will be.
It isn't nearly as OMFGWTF OP as a lot of people make it out to be. Besides, single player RPG where the point is to beat it and enjoy the experience. It's not competitive. The concept of "balance" to a single player RPG is and always will come down to: Was the experience fun? If yes, the game is balanced just fine. If it was "too easy," chances are you can simply opt in to one of the dozens of other character creation ideas to something you feel is more in line with the challenge you expected.
The most OP dual-classes in the game are Berzerker/Mage (seriously, why don't people recognize this as better than Kensai/Mage?), Swashbuckler/Cleric (can't backstab with flails, maces or hammers and most people prefer those to clubs and quarterstaves), or Kensai/Thief, mostly because Use All Items inherently breaks a lot of the game's class balance more so than the kensai kit offers benefits. I'm struggling to think of any other dual-classing combination that is really powerful because of kits and not inherently because of how good that dual-class is.
I actually don't see Swashbucklers as being that "op" of a dual-class either. Why? Because you hardly get significant bonuses by the time you leave the kit. Chances are you'll do it around level 10, which means +3 AC and +2 hit/damage. Thing is, you can't backstab. Level 10 = x4, level 13 = x5. I'm not sure better AC and slightly better hit/damage is worth giving up the ability to insta-gib enemies. A thief/mage can abuse invisibility spells to really go nuts-crazy with backstabbing even in the middle of combat. Is Swashbuckler/Mage good? Yes. Is it OMFGWTF OP? Not really.
All the druid kits suck at dual-classing to fighter. I guess Berzerker/Druid would be pretty good. The only ranger kit that it'll even let you dual-class to Cleric is a Beastmaster and while it's a pretty solid combo, you can only use 3 weapon types in total (clubs, staves, slings) so I'd hardly call it imbalanced. Clerics rarely dual-class out of Cleric to begin with and I can see a lot of reasons someone might want to play a single-classed Cleric kit.
AND LASTLY people grossly under-represent the difficulty of regaining your first class. If you go enough levels into a kit to really make it shine, it takes you a really, really, really long time to gain those levels back. In the case of Kensai/Thief, imagine running a thief without armor or bracers through half of Shadows of Amn. That's basically what happens when you pick the "optimum" level to dual-class from. It's a really painful transition period and makes being Teh Pwnzilla at the end of Throne of Bhaal all the more worthwhile. There is an entire game here. Just because some classes are significantly better at the very end of it doesn't somehow mitigate the entirety of the struggles that character will endure at other points.
Seriously, though, the original post didn't suggest removing it entirely. @OssiaN simply stated that he/she thought kits shouldn't be allowed. I personally disagree, because the kits allow for some really cool combos and I personally couldn't care less if other people want to use the cheesetastic kensai/mage combo. Go munchkins! GO!!!
I'll admit some bias regarding this discussion. My character for this next play through will be a Shapeshifter Druid/Fighter and I'll be annoyed if this combination is taken from me.
Anyway, there definitely are some downsides to dual classing, like having to spend a big chunk of time without your first class's abilities, and the fact that you can't dual into a kit even though your second class ends up being the more important one.
But back to the discussion, I am frequently annoyed at the people clamoring Dual-Classing is "overpowered." IF we were running a PnP campaign where the GM planned to pit everyone against each other and only IF everyone was at epic levels, then alright. Then I'll entertain arguments for it being "overpowered."
Because as it is, the game has been around for 14 freakin' years. Don't change it now. I will slap you in the face with the largest fish I can find if arbitrary measures to "balance" (read: nerf) features I frequently used in my playthroughs. It's a single player RPG! That's been around since 1998! Leave well enough alone.
What pleasure would people who think it's overpowered get were it dramatically altered or removed? They could go on to play their single class guys like they were planning on already. Meanwhile people who enjoy munchkin characters are left lamenting the removal of a gameplay feature they really enjoyed. And for what? So people who feel like they know game balance better than the devs can feel happy other people have an easier time through a single player RPG than they did during their playthrough?
I don't understand it. Leave well enough alone. If anything, add in more features for even more overpowered characters. It's not like Baldur's Gate is a particularly hard game to begin with.
I'm a fan of the White Wolf game Werewolf: The Apocalypse and this is the closest I can get to playing one in an rpg.
You can disagree with me, but i think that's worth discussion.
Playing a dual class gets in the way of the story, and i think i should not be asked to choose between building the best character I can and playing the story the way i like. The fact that dualclassing is really OP only in BG2 should be addressed now, since the two games are thought to be played consecutively...
Limited level cap ( 10 - 15 something like that ) do not allow you get any OP combination here.
Keep it for BG2:EE
Then will be REALLY necessary balance it.
Thanks!!! haven't thought about it, now I know what class my BG:EE Character will be!
There is lvl cap, you can´t reach lvl hight enough for worthy switch on mage.
As stupid as it is, they're rather enable two/three kits at the same time (Kensai/Swash/Conjurer multiclass...), than "balance" anything regarding dual-class. Personally, I prefer not changing multi-class and dual-class system at all.
Something what NEVER allow kensai and his dual-class combination wearing armor.
Swashbuckler/Mage
Swashbuckler/Cleric
Ranger/Cleric
( Even Kensai/Mage )
All are strong combination, but all also have some penalty.
Kensai/Thief with " Use All Items " really destroy a lot of the game's class balance.
Kensai is fighter what is excelent in combat because he do´t wear any armor. It is his unique fighting style what give to him all that special bonuses. He CAN´T use that fighting style if he wear armor ! ( Also things like " Kai " backstabing are to much OP )
Come to think of it, I think I'll post this poll now.
I never mentioned anything about pool. I have came to that conclusion simply by observing discussions, and due to that possibility exist that I'm deadly wrong. If I'm mistaked, then fine, I don't mind.
PS. I also recall seeing topic that was just about to "prove" that double kits for dual/multi classing wouldn't break game balance and are 100% sensible.