Do Spoilers have Expiration Dates?
JuliusBorisov
Member, Administrator, Moderator, Developer Posts: 22,754
As suggested here - https://forums.beamdog.com/discussion/46347/dual-classing-imoen-to-a-mage-spoiler-alert-for-bgii-ee#latest by @Korbu, a separate thread is created not to derail that discussion.
My own view is stictly no, they don't have expiration dates. People are being born each day, they grow up each day and each day brings new people who find out about a book, a movie, a game, anything for the first time. Any amount of time passed doesn't mean a game, a movie can't interest a person. And that person will be happy to discover him- or herself all the circumstances and endings.
The EEs serve as an example that a 15-years game can attract new players, of any age and from any country. Those who got acquainted with the Gorion's Ward only in 2014, 2015 and even in 2016. Among SoD players there will be people who watch the starting movie for BG1 for the first time. Of course, this particular forum unites both games, and thus it's hard to keep everything in secret, because for every BG1 discussion there's a BG2 discussion about the same characters.
But the spoilers themselves don't expire, no, Sir. We have a warning that any discussion in an area that is not for new players is potentially spoilery, but we still have to remember that not everyone played BG, IWD or any other game till the end, not everyone saw the previous season of GoT, not everyone read the LoTR.
So, https://forums.beamdog.com/discussion/44942/please-try-to-hide-spoilers-about-things-that-are-likely-to-be-unknown#latest
My own view is stictly no, they don't have expiration dates. People are being born each day, they grow up each day and each day brings new people who find out about a book, a movie, a game, anything for the first time. Any amount of time passed doesn't mean a game, a movie can't interest a person. And that person will be happy to discover him- or herself all the circumstances and endings.
The EEs serve as an example that a 15-years game can attract new players, of any age and from any country. Those who got acquainted with the Gorion's Ward only in 2014, 2015 and even in 2016. Among SoD players there will be people who watch the starting movie for BG1 for the first time. Of course, this particular forum unites both games, and thus it's hard to keep everything in secret, because for every BG1 discussion there's a BG2 discussion about the same characters.
But the spoilers themselves don't expire, no, Sir. We have a warning that any discussion in an area that is not for new players is potentially spoilery, but we still have to remember that not everyone played BG, IWD or any other game till the end, not everyone saw the previous season of GoT, not everyone read the LoTR.
So, https://forums.beamdog.com/discussion/44942/please-try-to-hide-spoilers-about-things-that-are-likely-to-be-unknown#latest
Post edited by JuliusBorisov on
15
Comments
You know which parts of a story were most important to you when you first experienced them, and you know which of those parts are important to be surprised by. If you spoil those moments for someone else, you rob them of the opportunity to be surprised in the same way that you were surprised. So you can say what you like about it being 2016 and if you don't know who Vader is by now, tough cookies--but that attitude denies a lot of people the pleasure of discovery.
I remember going into the last few Harry Potter movies having not read the books, and hearing the people in the seats next to me discuss plot details of the movie we were about to see, and trying to explain that by giving away those details, they were robbing me of the experience of discovering those details myself and being surprised by them. When you know that a certain character is going to die, it can completely ruin the suspense of the moment; you know what's going to happen, so your reaction is muted by that foreknowledge.
So, no. There is no statute of limitations on spoilers. There's a point where it becomes socially acceptable to talk about these details as if they were common knowledge, but there is still value in at least alerting people ahead of time before you ruin the end of The Sixth Sense for them forever.
On one of the social media sites, I saw someone post a MEME indicating that TORCHWOOD was an anagram of Doctor Who. Someone commented that their mind was blown by that revelation. Someone else posted that any TRUE Doctor Who fan should have already known that and proceeded to make another poster feel bad about not knowing that when they were bringing back the show they used the code name TORCHWOOD to keep it secret. There is nothing wrong with not knowing that and that is no indication as to how into the fandom you are. I'm sure there are things that we all don't know about our fandoms. Live and let live.
For me, I'd love to be able to go back and play a game like Baldur's gate for the very first time. I thrill when I see a poster telling about their first run. That is a most magical time and I want to see more of that. It's no skin off my nose that they are just learning about something that I've known about for a while. I envy that they get to see things for the very first time. I try to respect that and not be spoilerish (or at least use spoiler tags). Sometimes I fail. That is bad on me, not on anyone who didn't know that
Thanks for bringing up the topic as I am sure that a lot of us could be more aware of spoilers and more respectful of those who haven't yet been introduced to the things that we love. And a healthy reminder that not everyone has had our focus and that we should not deprive those 'First times' for others simply because we found out about them before anyone else.
As a personal thing I've come to find great distaste in modern gaming and so I've been going back and playing the Gold Box games, Infinity Engine Games, and things from that era of CRPG. Due to many of these being old I'm taking care to avoid spoilers.
I'll take the example of Star Wars: TFA. Before going to see the movie I had to sequester myself away from the internet because even weeks before opening day almost everywhere I looked they were spoilering the heck out of it; and I saw the movie that Saturday after it hit theaters. When I did see it, certain events like the bridge scene and the island scene were already spoiled for me. That kind of soured the experience for me.
Now, let's say that (hypothetically) all my life I had never been interested in science Fiction movies and, after being dragged to see TFA I was so impressed with something that I had missed all my life that I decided to go back and watch A New Hope - Return of the Jedi (because I have a friend who knows the good from the crap). If I knew going in that (pick some event in the movies that wasn't revealed again in TFA), it would make the experience less enjoyable. And why? Simply because it wasn't my focus in 1979? Should I not ever convert?
Just because you think something is common knowledge doesn't mean it is. It really doesn't hurt to use spoiler tags.
Baldur's Gate 1 is from 1998 and I got to know it in 2009 - so the game was 11 years old, but I wouldn't want to be spoiled there and then.
I haven't yet played Planescape Torment beyond the opening chapter - yet I am spoiled as to the nature of the Nameless One due to a carelessly dropped spoiler-in-the-open in some forum.
spoilers do expire, in a manner inversely proportional to their cultural significance, due to the potential benefit to whatever the spoiler is contained within.
how did the big comfy couch end?
insignificant -> no real benefit to conversation or jokes -> no reason to spoil it -> don't spoil it -> we get nothing that references the big comfy couch
how did star wars episode blah end?
pretty darned significant -> one phrase can evoke a whole ream of memories or viewpoints -> pretty good reason to make spoiler laden references - > spoil it -> we get "Something Something Darkside"
I find that I often enjoy the things that reference spoilers more than the thing that they've spoiled. I have had things spoiled that I would rather have experienced myself, but I cannot think of an example where I would have discovered it without the spoiler.
I'm not saying "spoil all the things", but I think spoilers have their place and are often more constructive than destructive, at least in a public setting.
But are you saying that
I don't think this applies to any RPG in existence however, since they only have a niche appeal. But yeah, I agree it's very polite to post spoilers warnings. In most games it's a complete non-issue anyway, since most RPGs don't have any real significant plot worth spoiling the majority of the time. Baldur's Gate just happens to be one that does have a few of those moments (still less than 5 imo). So it's certainly appropriate to keep up the practice here.
I suppose I'm not being consistent here though. One of my favorite things to do in a new relationship is to have the girl I'm seeing at the time watch "From Dusk Til Dawn" with me if she hasn't seen it and enjoy her reaction at what happens halfway through the movie....
though that does give me a great idea for a new religion, where everything must be spoiled at every opportunity.
Rosebud was his sled.
http://davidlavery.net/Courses/3870/Films/Peanuts_Kane.jpg
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Quotes/ItWasHisSled
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ItWasHisSled
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citizen_Kane
Case in point - I still have not read or seen any of the Harry Potter works, and I am trying to stay as spoiler-free as I can until I get time to enjoy them properly - probably starting with the books that I own but still have not read. I think it entirely unreasonable of me if I get upset at someone casually dropping a Potter reference that gives away some key detail that I have managed to avoid to this day - I had my chance. However, if I am in conversation and Potter comes up, I will advertise my desire to remain spoiler free, and am happy to leave the conversation for a while if it is important for the others to discuss that material. It would be extremely rude to force the spoiler on me though, after the warning, without giving me a chance to withdraw - or handling the topic with care if the potter reference is not essential.
I think Star Wars and Star Trek have been in that status for years. It was interesting seeing the reaction to Lord of the Rings spoilers at the time. OTOH, I think we are a long way from being free to spoil the newest Star Wars entry.
For example, I think the oft-cited Sixth Sense is at one end of the scale. What is at the other? Something like Boyhood? The main take-away from that film is that it is fun watching a film-maker deliver such a long-running project, and seeing the cast grow and evolve in front of you. Knowing the end point does not matter, it is more about the journey. What other movies can we suggest that are difficult (but probably not impossible) to spoil?
Lol. Although, could you imagine if someone today didn't already know that, and was reading a history book, yet hadn't reached that point, and somebody "spoiled" it for them?
I have had several things spoiled for me (notably the third Matrix movie) and it was not fun. My brother had the new Star Wars film spoiled for him, and he was very upset. In fact, I was even more upset on his behalf... his friend did it intentionally thinking it would be really funny and not realizing that it is actually a big deal with some people.
Due to those experiences, I try to be cautious when I can. However, I do think there is a point where people should expect spoilers, particularly on this forum where the game has been around longer than some of the players.
I do think you can safely spoil Empire Strikes Back without fear. Same with Soylent Green.
But not
To be clear on my own personal view point. I have in the past thoughtlessly blurted things out because I have thought of those things as common knowledge. Like the ultimate solution to The Sixth Sense or the lineage of a certain boy farmer, it happens. And I am not saying that anyone who lets slip with something like "Loki betrays Thor" in the Marvel Cinematic universe movies is a "Bad" person. I'm just saying that it doesn't hurt to consider your audience before you post something. If you think it is reasonable that someone reading/viewing the information might not appreciate the spoiler, it takes almost no time at all to put a spoiler tag.
I also think that it is not necessary to use ludicrous extremes as examples. Yes, all movies end (well, except Ground Hog day and the Twilight Saga). That isn't a spoiler.
SNAPE KILLS TRINITY WITH ROSEBUD! (And then it turns out they're both Tyler Durden.)
— xkcd http://xkcd.com/109/
"Alright, film students, are you ready? IT WAS HIS SLED! HAHAHAHA! Now you don't have to sit there for three hours!"
— Craig Ferguson, The Late Late Show with Craig Ferguson
"...and Rosebud was just a sled. Oh no, I didn't spoil it for you, did I?"
— Veronica, Veronica Mars
"If you are going to complain about a spoiler that the Master (hehehe) features in "The Keeper of Traken" then tough shit, you're about 30 odd years too late to have a whinge."
—Joe Ford on Doctor Who, "The Keeper of Traken"
http://docohobigfinish.blogspot.co.uk/2015/04/the-keeper-of-traken-written-by-johnny.html
"What?! Gandalf comes back?! Dude, why'd you spoil it?"
"Dave, it's been in print for 50 years. It's like me telling you that Hamlet dies at the end of the play."
"Hamlet dies!?"
— Dave and Greg, Real Life Comics
Yami: I see. Then the only way to defeat you is to spoil every plot twist in existence, thereby ridding the public of any desire to see your convoluted mess of a movie series!
Arkana: You wouldn't dare!
Yami: Wanna bet? [inhales] Snape kills-
[many spoilers later]
Yami: ...Nicole Kidman is a ghost, and Rosebud is the sled.
Arkana: No! He's spoiling all the best plot twists!
—Yu-Gi-Oh! The Abridged Series, episode 30
"Spoiler Alert - This article contains spoilers for Harry Potter (Snape kills Dumbledore), Star Wars (Darth Vader is Luke's father), Citizen Kane (it was his sled), The Sixth Sense (Bruce Willis is a ghost) and the dictionary (zyzzyva)."
—LEGO Harry Potter as Explained by Someone Who Has Never Read Harry Potter
http://www.mytgn.co.uk/forum/content.php?70-LHPaEbSWHNRHP-Part-2-Harry-Potter-and-the-Chamber-of-Secrets
"Kong?! You don't want me to spoil Kong, a seventy-year-old movie? There's a statute of limitations on this shit, man. [...] Have you seen The Passion yet? Spoiler alert: Jesus dies."
— Gabe, Penny Arcade
"- So wait!!! The crazy old hobo WAS LUCY!?!?!?!"
"- Yes, and Snape kills Dumbledore. Also, Darth Vader is Luke Skywalker's father."
"- And, appropriately enough, Soylent Green is people."
— Comments to a Sweeney Todd video.
Lucy: What are you watching?
Linus: "Citizen Kane".
Lucy: I've seen it about ten times.
Linus: This is the first time I've ever seen it...
Lucy: "Rosebud" was his sled!
Linus: AAUGH!!
—Peanuts http://davidlavery.net/Courses/3870/Films/Peanuts_Kane.jpg
Sideshow Bob: The greatest murder since Snape killed Dumbledore!
Bart: Aw, I haven't gotten to that part yet!
Bob: It's a four-year-old book.
Bart: I'm a slow reader.
—The Simpsons
Cloud87450: Yeah, Super Mario Bros. 2 was actually All Just a Dream!
Chip Cheezum: Whaaaat?
slowbeef: Oh my god, the surprise twist to this twenty-year-old game.
— Retsupurae note "Uh, well close to like 25, really."
Leia's his sister and Vader's his dad
What could I have said that would make her so mad?
Norman Bates' mom is dead, Bruce Willis is a ghost,
And Jesus comes back three days after he's toast
— "Spoiler Alert" by Tom Smith http://www.thefump.com/fump.php?id=118
"Is that a spoiler? The story has been out since 490 B.C."
—Roger Ebert, discussing a plot point in his review of Clash of the Titans
Harrison: My name... is... Khan
Jeremy: Surprise! But, only if you're four.
—CinemaSins, Everything Wrong with Star Trek Into Darkness.
Also if everyone uses spoiler warnings a lot of things are spoiled anyway.
As a not EE user I am spoiled on a lot of things about the new EE NPCs and their quests, and is my fault, I can only blame myself and the decision to read this boards and to partecipate. When I will shift to EE I will have less surprise. But I am happy that people put some details about this under spoilers, being spoiled to a certain level is unavoidable, to keep that level the lowest possible is polite and "newbie friendly".
So I try to spoil the lesser that I can and I try to be "topic sensitive", in the topic "I am new to BG, which weapon proficiences you suggest for F/C?" I feel free to tell that flail xxx will be available a lot before hammer yyy.
In the topic "Give suggestions to a newbie, but please don't spoil too much" I put it under spoiler if I tell it at all.
Shure, if they ask something related to installation problems, game bugs or similar things.
But if someone read the boards of a completely unknown game, even if in the boards the maximum attention in don't spoil things is used, is unavoidable that he will learn a lot of things, about the plot and other, that will spoil their surprise.
I never played Dragon's Age Origins or Final Fantasy, for me those are just names and I barely know that are CRPGs fantasy related. If I want a real no spoiler experience of them I have to install them on my pc and start a game. If before actually playing go on their boards and start to read I will start my first run better prepared but spoiled of a lot of surprise.
This is unavoidable, not uncharitable.
I for one am not saying that if you accidentally let slip that
Incidentally, I notice that whenever someone brings up the topic of spoilers (especially in the context of "please don't spoil this for me"), the first instinct of a lot of people is to actively spoil several things at once, as a joke. I'll say this right now: I don't find the joke amusing. In fact I find it disrespectful; at its basest level, it's the very definition of trolling, and I expect better behavior than that from this community.
I agree with both of you.
I wrote " being spoiled to a certain level is unavoidable, to keep that level the lowest possible is polite and "newbie friendly",
and also "I try to spoil the lesser that I can and I try to be "topic sensitive"."
But I don't change my opinion, that is not opposite to your opinions, as what I quoted is part of what I think.
I don't change it according to my experience, when I started to play BG2 I had no internet, one day I saw a friend playing it, he was fighting a tough black monster, with a lot of failures and reloads.
So I got the game and I began to play. Only playing I discovered that the monster was
Every thing was new and fresh, from the main plot, to the NPCs, to every little detail, that now I know so well. Every little decision was really a step in the dark, things like
was really unespected.
was really a choice in the dark.
I had also little or no knowledge of the combat system or BG2 magic, in that first run I was not so effective, even a couple of goblins (and I am talking of SoA, not BG) was a big problem.
But it was so special, so fantastic, because I was really not spoiled at all.
I really think that if the first run of a game is before reading the boards the player gain something that can happen only that time and that way, then he will have a lot of time to partecipate to the boards, expanding his knowledge and sharing tricks, tactics and opinions with other players.
I guess even answering that question would spoil me in some way
(I /really/ need to get around to reading that stuff, but only so much free time to go around)