Imo kitting the multiclasses is no more OP, The multi slower leveling balance well the GM and faster progression of the second class of some duals, a multi Kensai/M is different but not overpowered compared to a dual one.
The multi K/M will get Fighter HLAs at 3mill xp, while the dual will have to wait for his mage HLAs until 4.125 mill xp(assuming a L13 dual, if the K/M were dualed at 9 or 7, he'd compare very poorly). As almost nobody will want to play a K/M to spam HWs or DBs, this tilts the power balance clearly towards the multiclass. GM is pretty much the *only* thing left making a case for a dual classed K/M, but bottom line not a big enough one. Kits were introduced to make single classes more interesting. To achieve this, pretty much every kit is vastly superior to its base class. And because of that, kits were not allowed for multiclass characters. To prevent them from getting all too powerful.
In the poll "How do you use a F/M in the party?" about the 30% of the answers is using them in a balanced way or mainly as spellcasters, 1 over 3, not almost nobody, will want to play a K/M also to spam HWs or DBs. A lev 7 or 9 dual will have the same APR of the multi, the added damage from GM on top of it and will cast earlier lev 8 spells (Simulacrum, to double his APR, much better than the GWW he loose) and lev 9 (Planetar if we limit ourselves to the pure mlee power). A lev 13 dual will have +1/2 Apr, the damage from GM, at the price of a much longer down time and reaching high level spells later. For a kensai the damage added (on top of the one from the kit) is relevant as he is the best damage dealer between fighters, even if the multi will have more damage from the kit in later game is the dual one to have on average the best damage and even in late game will not be behind. And if the difference of level of spells between single class (and early dual) is not much in terms of needed XP before at that time of the progression is relevant at that point.
Shure, how you play a build change its relative power for you, but not his absolute power potential. I still think that the kitted multi KM is not more powerful then the legit dual one, because I take in account things like earlier Simulacrum and the casting power.
"Earlier", which means pretty much from the start, the multi can use MI/SS to serve as a perfect tank. "Later", means past 3mill XP, you get the opportunity to have him use two-handed weapons and do KaiGWWs with things like the Staff of the Ram. There might be a window of opportunity where under certain circumstances the dual might perform a bit better, but for the most part of the game, the multi will be the better choice, unless you plan your party without having other mages.
I tell it again and then stop, because for me is fine if we don't agree on something, as long as everyone has wrote his point of view and his reasons. To decide if a certain build is OP compared to an other one the FULL potential of both has to be taken in account, in every stage of the game. So as we are in this board and not in general discussion from Irenicus Prison to the last battle of ToB. And in the full potential the dual downtime is relevant, but also the faster mage progression of the dual. Is player decision if use it mostly as a fighter, a mage or in a balanced way, but this affects only how it will be useful for him, not the full potential he have. And the capability to be a better spellcaster has to be taken in account to evaluate his full potential because to not have other mages is only one of the possible player choices, the capability to be as good caster as a pure mage at the price of 64K xp (nothing compared to the total one) and a very little down time, being also a very good physical damage dealer, is relevant to his ABSOLUTE power, even if a player can chose to don't use that capability.
Is true that in early game the multi has no downtime and can be a wanderful tank, at the moment that the single class kensai (that will dual later) is a glass cannon. But what a cannon he is! Higher level than the multi and GM, he can not tank but is a much better damage dealer, better THACO, better dmg and more kai. At high level is true that he will lose GWW, but he will have Simulacrum at a little more then 2.3M xp if he dual at 7, the multi can cast it at 4.5M xp. And a dual and his clone with 2 staves of Ram and IA are better then a single multi, better also that the multi with GWW at 3M xp. From 2.3M to 3M the dual will be the best damage dealer with a large advantage, from 3M to 4.5M will be the better one with less advantage. only after 4.5M the multi and his clone, both with GWW, are the best ones. Without talking of the other lev 8 and 9 spells much earlier that, as I told before, are relevant for the absolute power.
When talking about duals, we should always clarify, at which level the dualing happens. Otherwise it is difficult to make exact comparisons. But if we are talking a L7 Dual, then a lot of your statements about damage dealing and THAC0 of course holds not much sway. Yes, he'll get a Simulacrum at 2.3mill XP. But at what cost? You *have* to dual the Kensai at 13, otherwise any comparison regarding damage potentials is completely redundant, as the GM boni for damage and to-hit will just be eaten away by pure level-progression and the additional Kensai-boosts connected to it. THAC0-wise, the dual will end up in the dust quickly anyway. This of course means K13/M won't happen before 2.75mill xp at all. That is already a good part of the game, and narrows down the window of opportunity for the dual. And I'm not even talking the sacrifices you have to make as K/M, when going for GM in staves. Because it takes quite a time to get the really good ones. As a multi, so what? Spending 2 pips in Longswords or whatever weapon type of choice isn't a big thing. Don't get me wrong, I really like Kensai-Duals, though I'm more leaning to the rogue side of things. But that is because of the kit advantages compared to a regular fighter in addition to GM, and my unwillingness to "keeper" me a multiclass kit build. If I would be willing to go that route, then it would be multi all the way. Bottom line many advantages, a lot less of a hassle for just the cost of some potential peak damage potential during a certain xp-window.
We are monopolizing the topic for an OT, so I put my answer in a spoiler, and please do the same if you have to tell more, so who is interested in the topic (The most powerful thief) don't have to read us and who is interested in our debate ( multi Kensai/M is overpowered compared to a dual one or is not so ) can read us if he like. [spoiler=my answer to jinxed75] "When talking about duals, we should always clarify, at which level the dualing happens." No, we must be aware that dualing at different levels have some pros and some cons, but we must take in account all the possibilities as we are comparing the dual against the kitted multi, not a particolar build of the dual.
Is true that dualing at 7 give less THACO and dmg bonus then doing it at 13. Thaco, he loose 2 from kit and 5 from level having a natural THACO of 14. -3 from kit, - 3 from GM, - the bonus THACO from STR (he can have 18.50 with a low level spell and after use the belts so 1 right after the down time and 4 in end game) and enchanted weapon. He can memorize/erase some spells and have THACO 3 right in the Promenade, with almost no down time and the same fast progression of a pure mage. That imo is pure power, maybe not the kind of power that YOU want from a KM, but is A LOT relevant in evaluating the power of the dual against the multi. Not the raw mlee power, the whole power as all the thing started from the question "is kitting the multi unbalancing?" and not "which is the best phisical damage dealer?".
If he dual later, lev10, he has 5 points better THACO (4 from level and 1 from kit), one more dmg and kai. at the price of 0.45M xp (approximated value). He will cast Simulacrum to double his APR at 2.7M xp, the multi will have his fighter HLA at 3M (a single GWW at that moment, so a single round when Simulacrum and IH last much more). The way from 2.7M xp to 4.5M xp, point where also the multi can double his APR using the clone is quite long, the window is narrowed, but not much. And as @Lord_Tansheron, whose experimentation and tests on dual classes are well known, tell that his recent results are that the optimal level for dualing a FM is 9 I trust him. I have added one level more for the added kai. This is only one other possible build for the dual, more effective in mlee, but with some cons, the down time begin to be relevant and the mage progression is slowed of 0.45M. Also this option has to be added to the power of dual vs kitted multi, and there he loose less or nothing from the multi also as raw mlee power. In early game GM, and later Simulacrum offset the kitted multi bonuses, only after 4.5M the multi has a clear advantage. Raw mlee one, not total power one as at that point the dual will have lev9 spells.
Dualing at 13, and only YOU say that he HAS to do so, is only an other possible choice (with pros and cons) he will gain other mlee power, but at a huge price in down time and mage progression slowing. Imo is not worth, I will choose the kitted multi or even a not kitted one (player choices), but some people love dualing at high level and for me is fine. And this is only an other option in evaluating the dual vs the kitted multi.
The decision if the kitted multi is OP in compared to the dual KM has to take in account all those options (each one with its pros and cons) and the potential they have. Not only for the use YOU like to do of the toon, but for every possible use the players can do. The raw dmg is not the only criteria useful to evaluate the power of a class, also if can be the only important for you (and maybe for me, don't take it as a personal thing). My personal decision is that the kitted multi K/M is not OP compared to the dual one. Having to choose I will take the multi, but just for the reason that I love multi and hate down times. Also I prefer small parties so my multis level fast and the down time of one toon when you have only other 2 or sometimes 3 ones to do the work as he has the first class inactive and the second underleveled is different from dualing in a party of 5 or 6 toons. But are player choices, not the only elements to evaluate the global power of the dual. Yust as imho your choice of using the KM mostly as hard hitter.
"And I'm not even talking the sacrifices you have to make as K/M, when going for GM in staves. Because it takes quite a time to get the really good ones." Again YOU have started to talk of staves, for me FoA and Belm, DoE or Crom are fine.... As Celestial Fury and a +1APR weapon is.
But if we consider staves sorry but "it takes quite a time to get the really good ones" is simply not true. When you came out of Chateau Irenicus you probably need to rest, do it, do the Circus Tent and will be night time. Then buy a couple of those thieving potions, let your thief gulp them and sell to Myra or Galoomp and steal a couple of the wands you have not used in the first dungeon (I never use a single one in it, even if I use Tactics Improved Ilych). You have 2 fully charged ones, go to the fence you find night time in that area and do it again, only one time for wand, imho selling and stealing multiple times to the same fence is lame and cheasy, some people do it (and for me is fine), but I will not suggest it. Now you have the 2 charged wands and the money to go to the best shopkeeper of the area and buy the +4 staff and the one with charges. You can have one of the weapons with highest enchantment of SoA and the one that hits harder then most of the hard hitters of SoA (consuming charges, but for bosses is useful) before you leave the Promenade. Staves. [/spoiler]
Yea this derailed a little bit but I think the your conversation is still relevant to the topic on a broader scope. Utilizing kits within multiclassing is something the game didn't intend, and will clearly result in stronger setups. Many of the setups will still be awkward and have to many restrictions - but some will certainly outperform current setups because as one of you mentioned kits were designed a little stronger in order to reward specializing in a more niche role.
Where I wanted to weigh in was the idea of assessing "power" of a character. This is a hotly debated subject and has many different interpretations. In my runs I labor over power evaluations heavily and am often going back to the drawing board so to speak as I find that a certain setup has too much weakness during certain points. As usual I will say my conclusions could be heavily flawed and not relevant to your runs but I'll submit them just in case anyone finds my methodology helpful.
I break the game down into 4 parts.
Beginning -> Spellhold Spellhold -> Dead Bodhi Watcher's Keep -> Dead Irenicus TOB
The most meaningful category for me is part 1 - which includes running around the city some planar jaunts and a bit of dragon and lich slaying. I tend to favor characters who have their power peaks here. This is why long duals and harder scaling characters like monk don't often find their way into my parties.
The second category is more of a benchmark of durability. If you get here and you are weak either you picked too much early game focused characters - or you didn't exp enough before taking the boat - or your party composition just doesn't have the right synergy.
The third category is where you should be very strong and really crushing the content - but not at the cost of considerable awkwardness in the first category. A bunch of experience gymnastics (saving scrolls, not turning in quest rewards) or even avoiding fights that your party can't take - usually dissuades me from compositions, even if they shine in cat 3.
The last category is what my friends refer to as the "wrath of god" section. This is undoubtedly the easiest part of the game if you have a clue about building characters. Almost any part you put together is going to just crush this end game so we've started to deprioritize emphasis on this. I think this is where most people might take exception. I used to build FOR this category - but the ENTIRE TOB in nightmare insane can be completed without sleeping once (although a wish scroll to restore your spells/abilities once doesn't hurt).
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The point of all this is that I think to properly assess the power of any character you need to look at their power curve - or performance at each point in the game (roughly speaking). If a character is an absolute demon late game but takes a long time to get online - it doesn't mean it really is overpowered or unfair. The relevance to the previous conversation is that although the "peak" power of some of these illegal combinations might seem truly destructive - if their path to greatness is long and treacherous - they might just be a reasonably balanced.
@Tredvolt, I completely agree on the first part of your post and on every single word you wrote. for the part after ---------------------------- I just agree
yeah, I won't derail the thread further. Just regarding your comments about the dualing, I also would never go past L9 if I were to make a K/M. I just made the point regarding the comparison to the illegal multiclass K/M. Another thing, and this is also on topic, regarding when to dual: Doing it as a fighter-type at L13 not only earns you better THAC0, an additional 1/2 attack and another proficiency point + possible kit-boni. It also means you get the final fighter-update on saving throws. And that is quite a big one, for me at least. But as stated above, I agree on it being not really feasible for a F/M, due to the extreme downtime. You can make it work with lots of forward planning and meta-gaming, but it is on the individual to decide whether it is worth it, or not. If you are going F/T however, a L13 Dual is a much more viable option. Regarding the Glass Cannon remark of the K/T before UAI: Not a big issue in the end. Spirit Armor alone goes a long way in mitigating potential issues. Throw in an Xxx of Protection, and a high DEX, and all is fine.
The verdict is in after testing the two legitimate thief types: halfling multi F/T and the kensai dual 9 kensai/T and there can be no denying it. The Kensai wins. +6 damage the entire game along with a couple other min later game strengths wins out against whirlwinds. This is how you do it:
- Start out 4 pips (or 5 if you want to cheat) into dagger. 2 into two handed sword. - Grandmaster dagger at lvl 9. - Dual into thief. One pip in two handed style and quarter staff. - Level to 3 and do not take your levels until you hit level 10. Why? This is so you don't waste proficiencies. You won't be impressive until 10 anyways. - Take level 10 and put pips into quarter staff, continue until grandmastered. - As soon as you can, get ahold of the ridiculous boomerang dagger. - Annihilate. - Backstab where possible with staff of Striking and Rynn, focus primarily on dagger use. It's rather shocking what the boomerang can do. Also, lack of armor will make dagger use the safest option. - Focus on saving throw equipment as you will lack shorty powers. Get helm of defense and ring of prot. - As you close in on UAI (lvl 24), begin grandmastering two handed sword in preparation for the wielding of the mighty Carsamyr. Use that when hasted with grandmastery at level 28. The only time the dagger won't be better unless you need to dispel. - Armor: Defense/inv potions/Shield amulet. UAI Robe of EVIL archmagi (keep +2/3 prot ring). Don't wear anything other than white dragon scales. Make sure saving throws on spells stay close to 1. Use inv pots or spirit/ghost armor scrolls to suppliment saving throws and armor. - Make liberal use of scrolls and potions. Become a master of the consumable but be careful not to packrat. - Traps can be whatever you like, I prefer time stop. - You are now more powerful than any bhaalspawn.
*Final equipment* Weapons - Firetooth dagger, Staff of ram, Carsamyr, Staff of the Magi
Cloak - Nondection OR (if you want to cheat) - Cloak of Balderan
Bracers - Gloves of extraordinary specialization
Belt - +22 strength belt
Depending on your play style and party, some of this may differ but there is no doubt in my mind now. 9kensai/T dual is, over the course of the game as a whole, the most powerful thief.
I don't even think cheated combos like F/Sin or F/SD can beat it (I will test it though for fun). Could a F/M/T in a two or one person party by more powerful? Perhaps. However, you will then not have the most powerful party. For a powerful party, you need 4-6 members. F/M/T won't truly come online for a long time under those circumstances.
Could I be wrong? I could be. Could M/T or F/M/T still outperform? I'm always open to debate.
@Dukinson the multi F/T will shine more in the first Balder's Gate game, that you are skipping here. There is significant playtime going through the first game, that might make the F/T a good choice over the balance of the game, even in the Kensai-Dual appears to be stronger for mid-late game (over the trilogy).
Alternatively, you might have fun taking a Kensai through the first game, and feel you earned that reward when the dual kicks in!
Start from BG2 though, and what you say makes a lot of sense.
I recently finished a play-through where my friend used the Kensai-Thief and was surprised by the result. I had long been an advocate of the multi fighter/thief and had assumed that the later performed better when all factors were considered throughout the game but found this to be not the case.
I have to say I was shocked by how much better then Kensai performed. After digging a bit deeper it seems to result from not only the 6 damage bonus (3 from gm 3 from kensai levels) but also the significant Thac0 difference through the early game. While it is true that the lack of helmet and armor on the Kensai was a bit of a concern, it was mitigated mostly by being range and having a good tank + summons in every hard fight. The saving throws were also not a big deal with good micro and our party very quickly taking out casters as a top priority.
The other usual top damage dealer in my party was a carefully played archer - and the k->t out damaged and out killed him by a significant margin. I honestly don't know of a more damaging single character.
Now the bad part is, the kensai dualed to thief at 9 leaves your party without a thief until then. We used Imoen in the starting dungeon and then avoided traps/locks until his thief came online. It was annoying but the annoyance in the first part of the game was worth it. From the whole story perspective as GreenWarlock brought up the multi is a bit "cleaner" and I still tend to gravitate toward that solution. If you are willing to use Imoen through the first game and the first dungeon though it isn't a big deal.
By the way - who is Finnegan and why were there 10 multiplayer games named after him this week - what did I miss?
You have to include the fact that it wins per your rules. An F/T still has access to warrior HLAs, and unless I already have a bunch of other warriors I will always pick an F/T multiclass over a dual-class. When it comes to the fights that matter it's hard to argue against auto-hit and 10 attacks per round.
You have to include the fact that it wins per your rules. An F/T still has access to warrior HLAs, and unless I already have a bunch of other warriors I will always pick an F/T multiclass over a dual-class. When it comes to the fights that matter it's hard to argue against auto-hit and 10 attacks per round.
With a K/T, you get access to Kai, which guarantees full damage with every attack. This is arguably a better ability than Critical Strike, especially as you can activate it together with other HLAs like Assassination. You don't get GWWs, but Gaxx(or IH from a scroll or one of your mages) can have you sorted in that department. When it gets to damage output, the K/T leaves the F/T multi in the dust. You pay for it by having to deal with the usual dual-classing issues, though.
I must be doing something wrong in more than a decade of playing BG2 because Kai and Critical Strike are not even on the same league in my book, especially on something that only has 7-9 Kensai levels versus a full-fledged F/M that gets an HLA for every level gained after reaching around 3M XP.
Anything that wears a helmet is immune to CS, that includes even lowly Hobgoblins. Kai guarantees max damage per hit, and there is nothing that could prevent it from happening. This means for example a 1d8+3 weapon will cause 11 base damage, while the damage for CS against a helm wearer/someone immune to crits will can be anywhere between 4 and 11. The Kensai gets +1 to hit and damage every 3 levels, + another 3 damage per hit from GM. That sums up to +6 damage per hit, if you dual at L9. At 10 APR this means 60 more damage within a single round compared to the Multi, from these Boni alone, the maximzed damage from Kai comes on top. If you dual at L13, which is still very doable, it gets even better. Of course, F/Ts can use IH, but that is not the point. You were argueing about 10 APR, and that can be achieved without Fighter HLAs.
Whirlwind HLA is definitely mighty. I don't think any other HLA compares - and I pump it exclusively on all my fighter types over critical strike or any of the other options.
While it is true that k9->t doesn't have this HLA and in fact only gets 16 HLAs as opposed to 23 for the f/t multi it just didn't seem like a big issue. In fact clever use of time stop traps seemed to go a long way toward mitigating the one real offensive loss in the dual class.
Don't get me wrong - whirlwind is godly - but the battles in the expansion already go so fast with a kensai that is already action starved from potion drinking and spells from scrolls that have been stored up most of the game. In the expansion my parties thief backstabbed non stop with nearly infinite invis potions and scrolls that the loss of whirlwind seemed like nothing.
All this on top of the fact that you essentially trade that power late game for power in the early and mid game which is far preferable. If I could make a more extreme trade for power differential I would.
The K->T has IH in almost every expansion fight which sets his attacks to 6 with staff of the ram or Carsomyr. He'd be at 8 with thrown daggers *his other GM*. Even when he doesn't want to backstab you are looking at only a difference of 4 attacks in a round that whirlwind is used. 4 attacks at a 6 damage deficit which makes it more reasonably 3 attacks or 2.5.
Now clearly everything the k->t can use the f/t can use two. They can both have same number of attacks - same item usage - even same time stop traps if you were crazy and chose those over whirlwind. So the only real difference to calculate would be the 6 damage per attack and multiplied per backstab vs the difference between a hasted f/t vs whirlwinding fighter thief. That really is all of it.
I was a f/t advocate and still am in some ways but if you are looking for pure damage throughput over the course of the entire game the k->t seems head and shoulders above the multi. My mistake in my originally thinking the f/t would be all around better was that I underestimated just how big a difference the 6 damage and early thaco was. The kensai was doing 30-40% more effective damage, especially in harder fights.
You people do know that for a hit to be a critical then it also has to be a guaranteed hit, right? The crit is just a bonus. The auto-hit is what makes Critical Strike so powerful, and F/Ts can have a LOT of Critical Strike uses. It's funny that you mention how "nothing" prevents the max damage of Kai because something actually does. It's called AC (though there's also RNG, so I guess that makes two). Not to mention you only get 2, 3 uses of Kai, compared to all the Critical Strikes/WWs/GWWs uses F/Ts have access to.
Whirlwind/GWW is for two-handed weapons users, since two handed-weapons can give you more damage and (just as importantly) reach. Because the last thing you want is for anything without PfMW or significant damage reduction to be facetanking powerful monsters, especially at higher difficulty levels. 4 attacks per round can potentially be a massive DPS loss when buffs like the bard song enter the picture. Thankfully F/Ms get access to IH or GWW/WW to counter this.
I can see the appeal of dual-class thieves when one already has enough warrior characters, otherwise I'd always pick the multiclass F/T. It mostly depends on party composition.
BTW if you bothered to check the OP's posts then you'd know that there's a very good reason why an F/M would be underperforming given his specifications.
To my mind Kai is nearly a waste of an aura, there is a casting time of 2 which is possible to interrupt and reduces your damage. The duration is only 10 seconds and the effect isn't very good.
Sure if you compare 1d8+3 and 11 it looks strong, but when your fully geared character deals 30.5 damage on average per hit, going to 34 won't change much, you will even lose damage in the process because you will waste some attacks with the casting time and you could have used this aura for something else more useful.
You people do know that for a hit to be a critical then it also has to be a guaranteed hit, right? The crit is just a bonus. The auto-hit is what makes Critical Strike so powerful, and F/Ts can have a LOT of Critical Strike uses. It's funny that you mention how "nothing" prevents the max damage of Kai because something actually does. It's called AC (though there's also RNG, so I guess that makes two). Not to mention you only get 2, 3 uses of Kai, compared to all the Critical Strikes/WWs/GWWs uses F/Ts have access to.
Except that hitting things isn't a problem with a Kensai. You get 3 uses of Kai at the mark of 250.000xp, that is way earlier than your big mass of HLAs you'll have to wait for a long time. If you dual the Kensai at L13, he'll have the equivalent THAC0 of a L17 fighter, at a mere 2.1mill XP(that is when he gets his levels back after dualing).
Whirlwind/GWW is for two-handed weapons users, since two handed-weapons can give you more damage and (just as importantly) reach. Because the last thing you want is for anything without PfMW or significant damage reduction to be facetanking powerful monsters, especially at higher difficulty levels. 4 attacks per round can potentially be a massive DPS loss when buffs like the bard song enter the picture. Thankfully F/Ms get access to IH or GWW/WW to counter this.
Well, surely dual-wield is way to go for a K/T build. With a magical Katana in his hands + Kai +Kensai Damage Bonus +GM Damage Bonus you'll have a hard time getting near with a F/T Multi, even with the best 2Handers. Also you forgot to factor in the Kensais Speed Factor Bonus, which does quite some wonders when it gets to hit the opponent before he hits you. You also have a lot more HP than a Multi, and of course, there is nothing wrong in using a scroll of Stoneskin/PfMW for the really hard fights. I play with SCS, aTweaks and Ascension, so difficulty is not a evaluation factor.
I can see the appeal of dual-class thieves when one already has enough warrior characters, otherwise I'd always pick the multiclass F/T. It mostly depends on party composition.
Well, there is nothing wrong with that. Dualing is a pain, after all. But when talking about damage, there is no way around the K/T. We probably all have started with normal F/T Multi builds, and I bet we were all skeptical at the beginning, too. But the difference is really that staggering. You have to try it out for yourself.
To my mind Kai is nearly a waste of an aura, there is a casting time of 2 which is possible to interrupt and reduces your damage. The duration is only 10 seconds and the effect isn't very good.
Sure if you compare 1d8+3 and 11 it looks strong, but when your fully geared character deals 30.5 damage on average per hit, going to 34 won't change much, you will even lose damage in the process because you will waste some attacks with the casting time and you could have used this aura for something else more useful.
I never had Kai interrupted, not nce. 10 seconds is almost two rounds, in addition to these 4.5 damage there are 6-7 damage per hit on top coming from Kensai and GM Boni. So we are talking 10.5 to 11.5 damage per hit. It should also be mentioned, that this additional damage doesn't rely on "full gear", and meticulous power- and metagaming at all.
I was strictly speaking about Kai in my previous post, not the other Kensai bonuses which, despite being permanent, aren't useful at all in my opinion. I don't see the point of dealing 35 damage per hit when you can kill Melissan in a mere round with only 20-25 damage per hit.
Plus you only get a 4.5 damage bonus with Kai if you use a d10 damage weapon like a katana (or a two-handed sword) which means you are probably using Celestial Fury+3 instead of a +4/+5 weapon which will reduce Kai value again. There is also a katana+4 but it isn't that strong.
Most good weapons are d8 while some are d6 (flails and quatterstaff if I recall correctly). In these situations Kai will cost you an aura to get 3.5 / 2.5 damages.
If you don't use a mod which suppress Kai casting (like a component from BG2Tweaks), you will probably deal more damage per round if you don't use it anyway as the casting time will cost you some attacks.
You have more HP than a multi but once again it isn't really needed, every characters part Fighter will get the full Constitution bonus to health and will get 100+ HP which is plenty enough. Plus the multi will get Hardiness which in my opinion is enough to pick the multi over the dual. Even if the multi could not have Hardiness, I would still play one to get the Shorty Saves.
Finally, casting from scrolls is done at caster level 10, is in a limited supply and there is an additional casting time. Plus the multi can do it earlier.
I was strictly speaking about Kai in my previous post, not the other Kensai bonuses which, despite being permanent, aren't useful at all in my opinion. I don't see the point of dealing 35 damage per hit when you can kill Melissan in a mere round with only 20-25 damage per hit.
I don't actually remember the stats of Vanilla Melissan, but in Ascension she has a 75% resistance against all types of melee attacks, and 500HP... And large, unconditional damage boni not useful? Well, I guess that is for everyone to decide by themselves. I think they are *very* useful. Useful for dishing out great damage without even being forced to use any special abilities, useful for much better backstabs, etc... Kai is just the icing on the cake.
Plus you only get a 4.5 damage bonus with Kai if you use a d10 damage weapon like a katana (or a two-handed sword) which means you are probably using Celestial Fury+3 instead of a +4/+5 weapon which will reduce Kai value again. There is also a katana+4 but it isn't that strong.Most good weapons are d8 while some are d6 (flails and quatterstaff if I recall correctly). In these situations Kai will cost you an aura to get 3.5 / 2.5 damages.
So what? I am not forced to do my Kai attack with a d6 weapon.
If you don't use a mod which suppress Kai casting (like a component from BG2Tweaks), you will probably deal more damage per round if you don't use it anyway as the casting time will cost you some attacks.
Nope. But you can convince me by laying down the maths for your guess.
You have more HP than a multi but once again it isn't really needed, every characters part Fighter will get the full Constitution bonus to health and will get 100+ HP which is plenty enough. Plus the multi will get Hardiness which in my opinion is enough to pick the multi over the dual. Even if the multi could not have Hardiness, I would still play one to get the Shorty Saves.
Finally, casting from scrolls is done at caster level 10, is in a limited supply and there is an additional casting time. Plus the multi can do it earlier.
Casting times for Stoneskin/PfMW are very low, PfMW doesn't depend on casting level, and a Level10 Stoneskin lasts quite a while in combo with a low AC. Also, these issues are shared among the dual and the multi. The shorty saves are definitely a strong point for a Multi, and Hardiness is great feat to have, I wouldn't argue against that. For me, I have no problems in bringing my saves into the area around 0, the supply of scrolls is sufficient, since even with my modded setup, there are only 4 or 5 encounters in the game, where I really feel the need to take such measures. The extra HP give enough leeway for my Cleric to have his Heal cast, if necessary. Hardiness is great, but you can do without. It's about personal preferences, but the entry point of the discussion for me was damage. And in that particular field, the K/T sits on top of the food chain. This isn't only what I say, this what everyone says who actually played such a build. And I can compare this very well, since there is no F/T build I haven't tried in 12 years of BG. My advocating in this particular issue (i.e. damage output)doesn't stem from some strange affection, but just from pure playing experience. Under normal circumstances I would always advise to go for a multiclass. Duals are a pain in the butt, the whole concept of "Hmm, up until now I was a Grandmaster Fighter, but now that I've chosen to learn something in a new class, I don't even know how to hold the weapon I was so feared with anymore. Maybe, someday I'll remember..." is flatout inane. It is the remarkable synergies of the Kensai Kit with the Thieving abilities, that make the K/T one of the rare exceptions, where I'd say the Dual is indeed worthy of consideration.
iHaste gives 8 APR, if you can get it. +3 damage per hit with Kai.
AC target, with iHaste available:
-10: Both hit on 2 with Crom Faeyr. Assuming helmet, iHaste Critical Strike is always 248 total damage from 8 APR guaranteed, or 124 damage without iHaste. GWW is 294.5 damage assuming 5% miss chance.
K>T is 296.4 damage with Kai and iHaste.
iKai > GWW > iStrike
-15: K>T hits on 3 with Green Ioun and Crom Faeyr. F/T hits on 5+ with same.
iKai (280) > GWW = iStrike > normal K>T > normal F/T
-20: K>T hits on 8, F/T on 10.
iStrike (248)> iKai > GWW
6.5e6 Exp - K>T now has HLAs and gauntlets for damage, F/T now has maxed THAC0.
F/T: Base THAC0: 0 - 1 Gauntlets - 1 Specialisation - 7 Strength = THAC0 -9. Base Damage: Gauntlets +2, Specialisation +2, Strength +14, average physical damage 5-11 Crom Faeyr main hand. So 23-29+5 damage. 2.5 APR base plus 1 TWF + 1 Belm + 0.5 Gauntlets = 4 APR mainhand. Capped.
-10: CS: 248 always. GWW is still 294.5 damage. iKai is now 311.6 damage.
-15: They still both hit on 2. CS: 248 GWW: still 294.5 damage. iKai is still 311.6 damage.
-20: F/T hits on 6 (75%), K>T hits on 8 (65%). CS: 248 GWW: 232.5 damage. iKai: 213.2 damage.
And at -20, Basic hits: K>T 24.7 vs F/T 23.25.
NB: If it's not immune to +2 weapons, Belm gives iKai and CS major boosts over GWW.
Bonus Round: GWW + Timetrap = 330 Damage. iKai + Timetrap = 328 Damage. If it's not immune to +2 weapons, Belm puts iKai ahead, if it is, GWW is ahead.
So.... general fighting: K>T is better when neither side is using abilities. K>T is better when both sides have no problem hitting the target. F/T is better against low AC enemies thanks to CS.
Kai is still not that great, it's less than the Kensai gets just by being a Kensai, but when all you have is a hammer, may as well beat people around the head with it.
Meanwhile F/T gets 16 HLAs and therefore 10 GWWs+CS's. K>T only gets 3 Kais.
Most importantly, however, iHaste is only available once per day in this thread's scenario, so GWW beats everyone forever by about 150 damage and F/Ts win the thread.
And for completion's sake, Fighter 13 > Swashbuckler 20 at 3.5e6 is -5 AC, +4 damage/hit, no HLAs, putting them somewhere between the F/T and the K>T, and at 6.5e6 have grown into level 30 Swashbuckler, giving them +6/+6/+7, giving them the best AC, and Whirlwind Attacks.
That's:
Base THAC0 8 - 6 Swashbuckler - 3 G.Mastery - 1 Gauntlets - 7 Strength = -9 THAC0, same as the F/T. Base damage: 5 G.Mastery + 14 Strength + 6 Swashie + 2 Gauntlets + Crom = 32-38+5, 40 average damage per hit.
WW: -4 penalty, means WW hits -10 on a 2, -15 on a 5 (80%), -20 on a 10 (55%).
-10: 380 average damage. -15: 320 average damage. -20: 220 average damage, and with basic hits: 30 damage average.
And for completion's sake, Fighter 13 > Swashbuckler 20 at 3.5e6 is -5 AC, +4 damage/hit, no HLAs, putting them somewhere between the F/T and the K>T, and at 6.5e6 have grown into level 30 Swashbuckler, giving them +6/+6/+7, giving them the best AC, and Whirlwind Attacks.
That's:
Base THAC0 8 - 6 Swashbuckler - 3 G.Mastery - 1 Gauntlets - 7 Strength = -9 THAC0, same as the F/T. Base damage: 5 G.Mastery + 14 Strength + 6 Swashie + 2 Gauntlets + Crom = 32-38+5, 40 average damage per hit.
WW: -4 penalty, means WW hits -10 on a 2, -15 on a 5 (80%), -20 on a 10 (55%).
-10: 380 average damage. -15: 320 average damage. -20: 220 average damage, and with basic hits: 30 damage average.
And, with the timetrap: 440 average damage.
Swashies are great, when they finally get there(shortly before the game is over). The big trade off here, of course, is no backstabs.
Swashies are great, when they finally get there(shortly before the game is over). The big trade off here, of course, is no backstabs.
Eh, 6e6 is pretty mid-range ToB, and they peak at 6.75e6, so only 250k Exp after the F/T gets their last point of THAC0. They're no slouches pre-HLA, either, especially in the tanking department (where K>Ts do suffer significantly).
But yeah, it's not quite as far as it could be, since they always get to keep Crom Faeyr for +4 damage (plus extra misses from the -3 to hit for assassination), and i.Invisibility brings them back up to ~300 average damage with Whirlwind against -20 AC and 380 against -16 or higher, but Swashies can't compete during their one assassination per rest or Mislead scroll.
It is not only the one assassination(or quaffing of a invis potion(one of your 5 gazillion), or just using hit'n fade with speed boots), it is about all the backstabbing business you can't get involved in over the course of approx 200hrs of game time. There so many occasions to settle things quick and quietly, rather than solving them via open conflict, I wouldn't want to miss it. Btw, mid-way ToB is what I consider almost over
It is not only the one assassination(or quaffing of a invis potion(one of your 5 gazillion), or just using hit'n fade with speed boots), it is about all the backstabbing business you can't get involved in over the course of approx 200hrs of game time. There so many occasions to settle things quick and quietly, rather than solving them via open conflict, I wouldn't want to miss it. Btw, mid-way ToB is what I consider almost over
Eh, I covered comparisons on page 1, but I can do it for Kensai too.
Kensai+G.Mastery+Gloves 4+5+2+... Staff of the Ram, I suppose? Assume they use Kai for maximum damage = 18 + 11 = 29 x 5 = 145 + 22 Strength (10) = 145 damage handshake plus 2 APR. Assume everything hits = 223 total damage, without Kai, 208.5.
Our level 20 Swashbuckler walks up and attacks without Whirlwind Attack since we're only at 3.5e6 Exp:
Four attacks gives 152 damage, plus Belm (assume minimum 3 damage roll) = 185 total damage.
There's a lot to be said for a high damage opening against mages, but like I said, there's really not as much in it as you might think, since almost half your damage can be added by strength and elemental bonuses.
Comments
As almost nobody will want to play a K/M to spam HWs or DBs, this tilts the power balance clearly towards the multiclass.
GM is pretty much the *only* thing left making a case for a dual classed K/M, but bottom line not a big enough one.
Kits were introduced to make single classes more interesting. To achieve this, pretty much every kit is vastly superior to its base class.
And because of that, kits were not allowed for multiclass characters. To prevent them from getting all too powerful.
A lev 7 or 9 dual will have the same APR of the multi, the added damage from GM on top of it and will cast earlier lev 8 spells (Simulacrum, to double his APR, much better than the GWW he loose) and lev 9 (Planetar if we limit ourselves to the pure mlee power).
A lev 13 dual will have +1/2 Apr, the damage from GM, at the price of a much longer down time and reaching high level spells later.
For a kensai the damage added (on top of the one from the kit) is relevant as he is the best damage dealer between fighters, even if the multi will have more damage from the kit in later game is the dual one to have on average the best damage and even in late game will not be behind.
And if the difference of level of spells between single class (and early dual) is not much in terms of needed XP before at that time of the progression is relevant at that point.
Shure, how you play a build change its relative power for you, but not his absolute power potential.
I still think that the kitted multi KM is not more powerful then the legit dual one, because I take in account things like earlier Simulacrum and the casting power.
Edit to add "earlier ".
There might be a window of opportunity where under certain circumstances the dual might perform a bit better, but for the most part of the game, the multi will be the better choice, unless you plan your party without having other mages.
To decide if a certain build is OP compared to an other one the FULL potential of both has to be taken in account, in every stage of the game. So as we are in this board and not in general discussion from Irenicus Prison to the last battle of ToB.
And in the full potential the dual downtime is relevant, but also the faster mage progression of the dual. Is player decision if use it mostly as a fighter, a mage or in a balanced way, but this affects only how it will be useful for him, not the full potential he have. And the capability to be a better spellcaster has to be taken in account to evaluate his full potential because to not have other mages is only one of the possible player choices, the capability to be as good caster as a pure mage at the price of 64K xp (nothing compared to the total one) and a very little down time, being also a very good physical damage dealer, is relevant to his ABSOLUTE power, even if a player can chose to don't use that capability.
Is true that in early game the multi has no downtime and can be a wanderful tank, at the moment that the single class kensai (that will dual later) is a glass cannon. But what a cannon he is!
Higher level than the multi and GM, he can not tank but is a much better damage dealer, better THACO, better dmg and more kai.
At high level is true that he will lose GWW, but he will have Simulacrum at a little more then 2.3M xp if he dual at 7, the multi can cast it at 4.5M xp. And a dual and his clone with 2 staves of Ram and IA are better then a single multi, better also that the multi with GWW at 3M xp. From 2.3M to 3M the dual will be the best damage dealer with a large advantage, from 3M to 4.5M will be the better one with less advantage. only after 4.5M the multi and his clone, both with GWW, are the best ones.
Without talking of the other lev 8 and 9 spells much earlier that, as I told before, are relevant for the absolute power.
But if we are talking a L7 Dual, then a lot of your statements about damage dealing and THAC0 of course holds not much sway. Yes, he'll get a Simulacrum at 2.3mill XP. But at what cost?
You *have* to dual the Kensai at 13, otherwise any comparison regarding damage potentials is completely redundant, as the GM boni for damage and to-hit will just be eaten away by pure level-progression and the additional Kensai-boosts connected to it. THAC0-wise, the dual will end up in the dust quickly anyway.
This of course means K13/M won't happen before 2.75mill xp at all. That is already a good part of the game, and narrows down the window of opportunity for the dual.
And I'm not even talking the sacrifices you have to make as K/M, when going for GM in staves. Because it takes quite a time to get the really good ones. As a multi, so what? Spending 2 pips in Longswords or whatever weapon type of choice isn't a big thing.
Don't get me wrong, I really like Kensai-Duals, though I'm more leaning to the rogue side of things.
But that is because of the kit advantages compared to a regular fighter in addition to GM, and my unwillingness to "keeper" me a multiclass kit build. If I would be willing to go that route, then it would be multi all the way. Bottom line many advantages, a lot less of a hassle for just the cost of some potential peak damage potential during a certain xp-window.
[spoiler=my answer to jinxed75]
"When talking about duals, we should always clarify, at which level the dualing happens."
No, we must be aware that dualing at different levels have some pros and some cons, but we must take in account all the possibilities as we are comparing the dual against the kitted multi, not a particolar build of the dual.
Is true that dualing at 7 give less THACO and dmg bonus then doing it at 13. Thaco, he loose 2 from kit and 5 from level having a natural THACO of 14. -3 from kit, - 3 from GM, - the bonus THACO from STR (he can have 18.50 with a low level spell and after use the belts so 1 right after the down time and 4 in end game) and enchanted weapon. He can memorize/erase some spells and have THACO 3 right in the Promenade, with almost no down time and the same fast progression of a pure mage.
That imo is pure power, maybe not the kind of power that YOU want from a KM, but is A LOT relevant in evaluating the power of the dual against the multi. Not the raw mlee power, the whole power as all the thing started from the question "is kitting the multi unbalancing?" and not "which is the best phisical damage dealer?".
If he dual later, lev10, he has 5 points better THACO (4 from level and 1 from kit), one more dmg and kai.
at the price of 0.45M xp (approximated value). He will cast Simulacrum to double his APR at 2.7M xp, the multi will have his fighter HLA at 3M (a single GWW at that moment, so a single round when Simulacrum and IH last much more). The way from 2.7M xp to 4.5M xp, point where also the multi can double his APR using the clone is quite long, the window is narrowed, but not much.
And as @Lord_Tansheron, whose experimentation and tests on dual classes are well known, tell that his recent results are that the optimal level for dualing a FM is 9 I trust him. I have added one level more for the added kai.
This is only one other possible build for the dual, more effective in mlee, but with some cons, the down time begin to be relevant and the mage progression is slowed of 0.45M. Also this option has to be added to the power of dual vs kitted multi, and there he loose less or nothing from the multi also as raw mlee power.
In early game GM, and later Simulacrum offset the kitted multi bonuses, only after 4.5M the multi has a clear advantage. Raw mlee one, not total power one as at that point the dual will have lev9 spells.
Dualing at 13, and only YOU say that he HAS to do so, is only an other possible choice (with pros and cons) he will gain other mlee power, but at a huge price in down time and mage progression slowing. Imo is not worth, I will choose the kitted multi or even a not kitted one (player choices), but some people love dualing at high level and for me is fine. And this is only an other option in evaluating the dual vs the kitted multi.
The decision if the kitted multi is OP in compared to the dual KM has to take in account all those options (each one with its pros and cons) and the potential they have.
Not only for the use YOU like to do of the toon, but for every possible use the players can do. The raw dmg is not the only criteria useful to evaluate the power of a class, also if can be the only important for you (and maybe for me, don't take it as a personal thing).
My personal decision is that the kitted multi K/M is not OP compared to the dual one. Having to choose I will take the multi, but just for the reason that I love multi and hate down times. Also I prefer small parties so my multis level fast and the down time of one toon when you have only other 2 or sometimes 3 ones to do the work as he has the first class inactive and the second underleveled is different from dualing in a party of 5 or 6 toons. But are player choices, not the only elements to evaluate the global power of the dual. Yust as imho your choice of using the KM mostly as hard hitter.
"And I'm not even talking the sacrifices you have to make as K/M, when going for GM in staves. Because it takes quite a time to get the really good ones."
Again YOU have started to talk of staves, for me FoA and Belm, DoE or Crom are fine....
As Celestial Fury and a +1APR weapon is.
But if we consider staves sorry but "it takes quite a time to get the really good ones" is simply not true.
When you came out of Chateau Irenicus you probably need to rest, do it, do the Circus Tent and will be night time.
Then buy a couple of those thieving potions, let your thief gulp them and sell to Myra or Galoomp and steal a couple of the wands you have not used in the first dungeon (I never use a single one in it, even if I use Tactics Improved Ilych). You have 2 fully charged ones, go to the fence you find night time in that area and do it again, only one time for wand, imho selling and stealing multiple times to the same fence is lame and cheasy, some people do it (and for me is fine), but I will not suggest it.
Now you have the 2 charged wands and the money to go to the best shopkeeper of the area and buy the +4 staff and the one with charges.
You can have one of the weapons with highest enchantment of SoA and the one that hits harder then most of the hard hitters of SoA (consuming charges, but for bosses is useful) before you leave the Promenade.
Staves.
[/spoiler]
Where I wanted to weigh in was the idea of assessing "power" of a character. This is a hotly debated subject and has many different interpretations. In my runs I labor over power evaluations heavily and am often going back to the drawing board so to speak as I find that a certain setup has too much weakness during certain points. As usual I will say my conclusions could be heavily flawed and not relevant to your runs but I'll submit them just in case anyone finds my methodology helpful.
I break the game down into 4 parts.
Beginning -> Spellhold
Spellhold -> Dead Bodhi
Watcher's Keep -> Dead Irenicus
TOB
The most meaningful category for me is part 1 - which includes running around the city some planar jaunts and a bit of dragon and lich slaying. I tend to favor characters who have their power peaks here. This is why long duals and harder scaling characters like monk don't often find their way into my parties.
The second category is more of a benchmark of durability. If you get here and you are weak either you picked too much early game focused characters - or you didn't exp enough before taking the boat - or your party composition just doesn't have the right synergy.
The third category is where you should be very strong and really crushing the content - but not at the cost of considerable awkwardness in the first category. A bunch of experience gymnastics (saving scrolls, not turning in quest rewards) or even avoiding fights that your party can't take - usually dissuades me from compositions, even if they shine in cat 3.
The last category is what my friends refer to as the "wrath of god" section. This is undoubtedly the easiest part of the game if you have a clue about building characters. Almost any part you put together is going to just crush this end game so we've started to deprioritize emphasis on this. I think this is where most people might take exception. I used to build FOR this category - but the ENTIRE TOB in nightmare insane can be completed without sleeping once (although a wish scroll to restore your spells/abilities once doesn't hurt).
---------------------------
The point of all this is that I think to properly assess the power of any character you need to look at their power curve - or performance at each point in the game (roughly speaking). If a character is an absolute demon late game but takes a long time to get online - it doesn't mean it really is overpowered or unfair. The relevance to the previous conversation is that although the "peak" power of some of these illegal combinations might seem truly destructive - if their path to greatness is long and treacherous - they might just be a reasonably balanced.
for the part after
----------------------------
I just agree
yeah, I won't derail the thread further. Just regarding your comments about the dualing, I also would never go past L9 if I were to make a K/M. I just made the point regarding the comparison to the illegal multiclass K/M.
Another thing, and this is also on topic, regarding when to dual: Doing it as a fighter-type at L13 not only earns you better THAC0, an additional 1/2 attack and another proficiency point + possible kit-boni. It also means you get the final fighter-update on saving throws. And that is quite a big one, for me at least.
But as stated above, I agree on it being not really feasible for a F/M, due to the extreme downtime.
You can make it work with lots of forward planning and meta-gaming, but it is on the individual to decide whether it is worth it, or not.
If you are going F/T however, a L13 Dual is a much more viable option.
Regarding the Glass Cannon remark of the K/T before UAI: Not a big issue in the end. Spirit Armor alone goes a long way in mitigating potential issues. Throw in an Xxx of Protection, and a high DEX, and all is fine.
- Start out 4 pips (or 5 if you want to cheat) into dagger. 2 into two handed sword.
- Grandmaster dagger at lvl 9.
- Dual into thief. One pip in two handed style and quarter staff.
- Level to 3 and do not take your levels until you hit level 10. Why? This is so you don't waste proficiencies. You won't be impressive until 10 anyways.
- Take level 10 and put pips into quarter staff, continue until grandmastered.
- As soon as you can, get ahold of the ridiculous boomerang dagger.
- Annihilate.
- Backstab where possible with staff of Striking and Rynn, focus primarily on dagger use. It's rather shocking what the boomerang can do. Also, lack of armor will make dagger use the safest option.
- Focus on saving throw equipment as you will lack shorty powers. Get helm of defense and ring of prot.
- As you close in on UAI (lvl 24), begin grandmastering two handed sword in preparation for the wielding of the mighty Carsamyr. Use that when hasted with grandmastery at level 28. The only time the dagger won't be better unless you need to dispel.
- Armor: Defense/inv potions/Shield amulet. UAI Robe of EVIL archmagi (keep +2/3 prot ring). Don't wear anything other than white dragon scales. Make sure saving throws on spells stay close to 1. Use inv pots or spirit/ghost armor scrolls to suppliment saving throws and armor.
- Make liberal use of scrolls and potions. Become a master of the consumable but be careful not to packrat.
- Traps can be whatever you like, I prefer time stop.
- You are now more powerful than any bhaalspawn.
*Final equipment*
Weapons
- Firetooth dagger, Staff of ram, Carsamyr, Staff of the Magi
Chest
- White Dragon scales
Rings
- +1 str from Cleric
- +50 fire resist
Neck
- +1 saving throws/ 10 magic resist
OR (debatable)
- +2 spell saving throws
Boots
- Boots of speed
Head
- Helm of defense
Cloak
- Nondection
OR (if you want to cheat)
- Cloak of Balderan
Bracers
- Gloves of extraordinary specialization
Belt
- +22 strength belt
Depending on your play style and party, some of this may differ but there is no doubt in my mind now. 9kensai/T dual is, over the course of the game as a whole, the most powerful thief.
I don't even think cheated combos like F/Sin or F/SD can beat it (I will test it though for fun). Could a F/M/T in a two or one person party by more powerful? Perhaps. However, you will then not have the most powerful party. For a powerful party, you need 4-6 members. F/M/T won't truly come online for a long time under those circumstances.
Could I be wrong? I could be. Could M/T or F/M/T still outperform? I'm always open to debate.
Alternatively, you might have fun taking a Kensai through the first game, and feel you earned that reward when the dual kicks in!
Start from BG2 though, and what you say makes a lot of sense.
I have to say I was shocked by how much better then Kensai performed. After digging a bit deeper it seems to result from not only the 6 damage bonus (3 from gm 3 from kensai levels) but also the significant Thac0 difference through the early game. While it is true that the lack of helmet and armor on the Kensai was a bit of a concern, it was mitigated mostly by being range and having a good tank + summons in every hard fight. The saving throws were also not a big deal with good micro and our party very quickly taking out casters as a top priority.
The other usual top damage dealer in my party was a carefully played archer - and the k->t out damaged and out killed him by a significant margin. I honestly don't know of a more damaging single character.
Now the bad part is, the kensai dualed to thief at 9 leaves your party without a thief until then. We used Imoen in the starting dungeon and then avoided traps/locks until his thief came online. It was annoying but the annoyance in the first part of the game was worth it. From the whole story perspective as GreenWarlock brought up the multi is a bit "cleaner" and I still tend to gravitate toward that solution. If you are willing to use Imoen through the first game and the first dungeon though it isn't a big deal.
By the way - who is Finnegan and why were there 10 multiplayer games named after him this week - what did I miss?
When it comes to the fights that matter it's hard to argue against auto-hit and 10 attacks per round.
You don't get GWWs, but Gaxx(or IH from a scroll or one of your mages) can have you sorted in that department.
When it gets to damage output, the K/T leaves the F/T multi in the dust. You pay for it by having to deal with the usual dual-classing issues, though.
And you think F/Ts can't use IH too?
The Kensai gets +1 to hit and damage every 3 levels, + another 3 damage per hit from GM. That sums up to +6 damage per hit, if you dual at L9. At 10 APR this means 60 more damage within a single round compared to the Multi, from these Boni alone, the maximzed damage from Kai comes on top. If you dual at L13, which is still very doable, it gets even better.
Of course, F/Ts can use IH, but that is not the point. You were argueing about 10 APR, and that can be achieved without Fighter HLAs.
While it is true that k9->t doesn't have this HLA and in fact only gets 16 HLAs as opposed to 23 for the f/t multi it just didn't seem like a big issue. In fact clever use of time stop traps seemed to go a long way toward mitigating the one real offensive loss in the dual class.
Don't get me wrong - whirlwind is godly - but the battles in the expansion already go so fast with a kensai that is already action starved from potion drinking and spells from scrolls that have been stored up most of the game. In the expansion my parties thief backstabbed non stop with nearly infinite invis potions and scrolls that the loss of whirlwind seemed like nothing.
All this on top of the fact that you essentially trade that power late game for power in the early and mid game which is far preferable. If I could make a more extreme trade for power differential I would.
The K->T has IH in almost every expansion fight which sets his attacks to 6 with staff of the ram or Carsomyr. He'd be at 8 with thrown daggers *his other GM*. Even when he doesn't want to backstab you are looking at only a difference of 4 attacks in a round that whirlwind is used. 4 attacks at a 6 damage deficit which makes it more reasonably 3 attacks or 2.5.
Now clearly everything the k->t can use the f/t can use two. They can both have same number of attacks - same item usage - even same time stop traps if you were crazy and chose those over whirlwind. So the only real difference to calculate would be the 6 damage per attack and multiplied per backstab vs the difference between a hasted f/t vs whirlwinding fighter thief. That really is all of it.
I was a f/t advocate and still am in some ways but if you are looking for pure damage throughput over the course of the entire game the k->t seems head and shoulders above the multi. My mistake in my originally thinking the f/t would be all around better was that I underestimated just how big a difference the 6 damage and early thaco was. The kensai was doing 30-40% more effective damage, especially in harder fights.
The crit is just a bonus. The auto-hit is what makes Critical Strike so powerful, and F/Ts can have a LOT of Critical Strike uses.
It's funny that you mention how "nothing" prevents the max damage of Kai because something actually does. It's called AC (though there's also RNG, so I guess that makes two). Not to mention you only get 2, 3 uses of Kai, compared to all the Critical Strikes/WWs/GWWs uses F/Ts have access to.
Whirlwind/GWW is for two-handed weapons users, since two handed-weapons can give you more damage and (just as importantly) reach. Because the last thing you want is for anything without PfMW or significant damage reduction to be facetanking powerful monsters, especially at higher difficulty levels.
4 attacks per round can potentially be a massive DPS loss when buffs like the bard song enter the picture. Thankfully F/Ms get access to IH or GWW/WW to counter this.
I can see the appeal of dual-class thieves when one already has enough warrior characters, otherwise I'd always pick the multiclass F/T. It mostly depends on party composition.
BTW if you bothered to check the OP's posts then you'd know that there's a very good reason why an F/M would be underperforming given his specifications.
[/random trivia fairy]
Sure if you compare 1d8+3 and 11 it looks strong, but when your fully geared character deals 30.5 damage on average per hit, going to 34 won't change much, you will even lose damage in the process because you will waste some attacks with the casting time and you could have used this aura for something else more useful.
If you dual the Kensai at L13, he'll have the equivalent THAC0 of a L17 fighter, at a mere 2.1mill XP(that is when he gets his levels back after dualing). Well, surely dual-wield is way to go for a K/T build. With a magical Katana in his hands + Kai +Kensai Damage Bonus +GM Damage Bonus you'll have a hard time getting near with a F/T Multi, even with the best 2Handers.
Also you forgot to factor in the Kensais Speed Factor Bonus, which does quite some wonders when it gets to hit the opponent before he hits you. You also have a lot more HP than a Multi, and of course, there is nothing wrong in using a scroll of Stoneskin/PfMW for the really hard fights.
I play with SCS, aTweaks and Ascension, so difficulty is not a evaluation factor.
Well, there is nothing wrong with that. Dualing is a pain, after all. But when talking about damage, there is no way around the K/T. We probably all have started with normal F/T Multi builds, and I bet we were all skeptical at the beginning, too. But the difference is really that staggering. You have to try it out for yourself.
Plus you only get a 4.5 damage bonus with Kai if you use a d10 damage weapon like a katana (or a two-handed sword) which means you are probably using Celestial Fury+3 instead of a +4/+5 weapon which will reduce Kai value again.
There is also a katana+4 but it isn't that strong.
Most good weapons are d8 while some are d6 (flails and quatterstaff if I recall correctly). In these situations Kai will cost you an aura to get 3.5 / 2.5 damages.
If you don't use a mod which suppress Kai casting (like a component from BG2Tweaks), you will probably deal more damage per round if you don't use it anyway as the casting time will cost you some attacks.
You have more HP than a multi but once again it isn't really needed, every characters part Fighter will get the full Constitution bonus to health and will get 100+ HP which is plenty enough. Plus the multi will get Hardiness which in my opinion is enough to pick the multi over the dual.
Even if the multi could not have Hardiness, I would still play one to get the Shorty Saves.
Finally, casting from scrolls is done at caster level 10, is in a limited supply and there is an additional casting time. Plus the multi can do it earlier.
And large, unconditional damage boni not useful? Well, I guess that is for everyone to decide by themselves.
I think they are *very* useful. Useful for dishing out great damage without even being forced to use any special abilities, useful for much better backstabs, etc...
Kai is just the icing on the cake. So what? I am not forced to do my Kai attack with a d6 weapon.
Nope. But you can convince me by laying down the maths for your guess.
Casting times for Stoneskin/PfMW are very low, PfMW doesn't depend on casting level, and a Level10 Stoneskin lasts quite a while in combo with a low AC. Also, these issues are shared among the dual and the multi.
The shorty saves are definitely a strong point for a Multi, and Hardiness is great feat to have, I wouldn't argue against that. For me, I have no problems in bringing my saves into the area around 0, the supply of scrolls is sufficient, since even with my modded setup, there are only 4 or 5 encounters in the game, where I really feel the need to take such measures. The extra HP give enough leeway for my Cleric to have his Heal cast, if necessary. Hardiness is great, but you can do without.
It's about personal preferences, but the entry point of the discussion for me was damage. And in that particular field, the K/T sits on top of the food chain. This isn't only what I say, this what everyone says who actually played such a build. And I can compare this very well, since there is no F/T build I haven't tried in 12 years of BG.
My advocating in this particular issue (i.e. damage output)doesn't stem from some strange affection, but just from pure playing experience.
Under normal circumstances I would always advise to go for a multiclass.
Duals are a pain in the butt, the whole concept of "Hmm, up until now I was a Grandmaster Fighter, but now that I've chosen to learn something in a new class, I don't even know how to hold the weapon I was so feared with anymore. Maybe, someday I'll remember..." is flatout inane.
It is the remarkable synergies of the Kensai Kit with the Thieving abilities, that make the K/T one of the rare exceptions, where I'd say the Dual is indeed worthy of consideration.
F/T 15/17: 3 HLAs.
Base THAC0: 6 - 1 Gauntlets - 1 Specialisation - 7 Strength = THAC0 -3.
Base Damage: Gauntlets +2, Specialisation +2, Strength +14, average physical damage 5-11 Crom Faeyr main hand. So 23-29+5 damage.
2.5 APR base plus 1 TWF + 1 Belm + 0.5 Gauntlets = 4 APR mainhand.
In the context of the thread, iHaste is unlikely, but for theoretical consideration we'll include it.
iHaste gives 4 APR, for 8 APR total, ignoring Belm. Hits guaranteed with Critical Strike.
GWW gives 10 APR for 10 APR with Crom Faeyr.
K 13>T 20: No HLAs yet.
Base THAC0: 8 - 4 Kensai - 3 G.Mastery - 7 Strength = THAC0 -6.
Base Damage: G.Mastery +5, Strength +14, Kensai +4 + Crom = 28-34+5
2 APR + G.Mastery + Belm = 4 APR.
iHaste gives 8 APR, if you can get it. +3 damage per hit with Kai.
AC target, with iHaste available:
-10: Both hit on 2 with Crom Faeyr.
Assuming helmet, iHaste Critical Strike is always 248 total damage from 8 APR guaranteed, or 124 damage without iHaste.
GWW is 294.5 damage assuming 5% miss chance.
K>T is 296.4 damage with Kai and iHaste.
iKai > GWW > iStrike
-15: K>T hits on 3 with Green Ioun and Crom Faeyr. F/T hits on 5+ with same.
iKai (280) > GWW = iStrike > normal K>T > normal F/T
-20: K>T hits on 8, F/T on 10.
iStrike (248)> iKai > GWW
6.5e6 Exp - K>T now has HLAs and gauntlets for damage, F/T now has maxed THAC0.
F/T:
Base THAC0: 0 - 1 Gauntlets - 1 Specialisation - 7 Strength = THAC0 -9.
Base Damage: Gauntlets +2, Specialisation +2, Strength +14, average physical damage 5-11 Crom Faeyr main hand. So 23-29+5 damage.
2.5 APR base plus 1 TWF + 1 Belm + 0.5 Gauntlets = 4 APR mainhand. Capped.
K>T:
Base THAC0: 8 - 4 Kensai - 3 G.Mastery - 1 Gauntlets - 7 Strength = THAC0 -7.
Base Damage: G.Mastery +5, Strength +14, Kensai +4 + 2 Gauntlets, + Crom = 30-36+5
1.5 APR + G.Mastery + Belm + Gauntlets = 4 APR mainhand.
-10:
CS: 248 always.
GWW is still 294.5 damage.
iKai is now 311.6 damage.
-15: They still both hit on 2.
CS: 248
GWW: still 294.5 damage.
iKai is still 311.6 damage.
-20: F/T hits on 6 (75%), K>T hits on 8 (65%).
CS: 248
GWW: 232.5 damage.
iKai: 213.2 damage.
And at -20, Basic hits: K>T 24.7 vs F/T 23.25.
NB: If it's not immune to +2 weapons, Belm gives iKai and CS major boosts over GWW.
Bonus Round:
GWW + Timetrap = 330 Damage.
iKai + Timetrap = 328 Damage. If it's not immune to +2 weapons, Belm puts iKai ahead, if it is, GWW is ahead.
So.... general fighting: K>T is better when neither side is using abilities.
K>T is better when both sides have no problem hitting the target.
F/T is better against low AC enemies thanks to CS.
Kai is still not that great, it's less than the Kensai gets just by being a Kensai, but when all you have is a hammer, may as well beat people around the head with it.
Meanwhile F/T gets 16 HLAs and therefore 10 GWWs+CS's. K>T only gets 3 Kais.
Most importantly, however, iHaste is only available once per day in this thread's scenario, so GWW beats everyone forever by about 150 damage and F/Ts win the thread.
And for completion's sake, Fighter 13 > Swashbuckler 20 at 3.5e6 is -5 AC, +4 damage/hit, no HLAs, putting them somewhere between the F/T and the K>T, and at 6.5e6 have grown into level 30 Swashbuckler, giving them +6/+6/+7, giving them the best AC, and Whirlwind Attacks.
That's:
Base THAC0 8 - 6 Swashbuckler - 3 G.Mastery - 1 Gauntlets - 7 Strength = -9 THAC0, same as the F/T.
Base damage: 5 G.Mastery + 14 Strength + 6 Swashie + 2 Gauntlets + Crom = 32-38+5, 40 average damage per hit.
WW: -4 penalty, means WW hits -10 on a 2, -15 on a 5 (80%), -20 on a 10 (55%).
-10: 380 average damage.
-15: 320 average damage.
-20: 220 average damage, and with basic hits: 30 damage average.
And, with the timetrap: 440 average damage.
Swashies are great, when they finally get there(shortly before the game is over). The big trade off here, of course, is no backstabs.
But yeah, it's not quite as far as it could be, since they always get to keep Crom Faeyr for +4 damage (plus extra misses from the -3 to hit for assassination), and i.Invisibility brings them back up to ~300 average damage with Whirlwind against -20 AC and 380 against -16 or higher, but Swashies can't compete during their one assassination per rest or Mislead scroll.
There so many occasions to settle things quick and quietly, rather than solving them via open conflict, I wouldn't want to miss it.
Btw, mid-way ToB is what I consider almost over
Kensai+G.Mastery+Gloves
4+5+2+... Staff of the Ram, I suppose?
Assume they use Kai for maximum damage = 18 + 11 = 29 x 5 = 145 + 22 Strength (10) = 145 damage handshake plus 2 APR. Assume everything hits = 223 total damage, without Kai, 208.5.
Our level 20 Swashbuckler walks up and attacks without Whirlwind Attack since we're only at 3.5e6 Exp:
4 APR Crom Faeyr.
Swash+G.Mastery+Gloves+Strength+Crom
4+5+2+5+14+8 (5-11)
Four attacks gives 152 damage, plus Belm (assume minimum 3 damage roll) = 185 total damage.
There's a lot to be said for a high damage opening against mages, but like I said, there's really not as much in it as you might think, since almost half your damage can be added by strength and elemental bonuses.