I don't argue against the damage output of the Swashie. My point is, that by choosing him, you miss out on a gameplay element, that I consider being both very useful, and most importantly freakishly funny. Felling big ugly Fire Giants one after another in a single strike, without them ever knowing what hit them=priceless. Just one of many examples.
1) Even with difficulty enhancement mods a lot of the most dangerous stuff in the game are not immune to crits. 2) As I already mentioned earlier when +damage buffs enter the picture, as is generally the case for non-solo runs, overall damage is skewed even further towards the setup which lands more hits, which in this case is the F/T. Even pre-HLAs, considering K/T downtime. 3) Crom with GWWs seems redundant on a PC. Can't you get to 25 strength on a non-caster with a strength belt and permanent +strength mods? It's been a while since I played a non-caster PC. An F/T using GWW should be using a two-handed weapon. 4) I'm not sure why you're trying to make it seem like the K/T is the king of backstabs considering Mislead + Critical Strike/Whirlwind. 5) It gets even more interesting when items enter the picture. The Helm of Vhailor, for example, allows the F/T to create a simulacrum of himself. Interestingly, the Simulacrum gets to keep all the F/Ts innate abilities... including all HLAs.
1) True stuff, though even then, in the limited resting format of the thread, however, Improved Critical is going to be doubling a significantly smaller number of attacks, which doesn't work out great, and several important, high AC enemies have an annoying tendency to have helmets, while GWW with a single or 2h weapon gets potentially 1 critical against such enemies on average.
2) Sort of false. Fighter/Thief gets 2 + 1/2 attack specialisation at 2.5e6 Exp, +1/2 APR for the gauntlets if you're hitting top floor of WK at that point. Kensai>Thief activates at 2.13e6 Exp, and gets 2 + 1 Attack Grand Mastery, which is immediately 5 APR with Belm. Your window for higher APR is very small - 1.25e6-2.13e6, and gets lower after HLAs, when the K>T can get 3.5 APR with the gauntlets.
3) There are only a few spells and effects that add strength, and to the best of my knowledge they're all cleric spells unless I'm missing an obvious one. Crom Faeyr, however, is one of the most damaging weapons in the game, including two handers, and saves pips on an extra proficiency (More important for a Swashie dual than a F/T, admittedly).
Crom Faeyr: +4 strength (vs 22 belt) 5-11 damage base +5 Electrical. Aka 14-20 damage. Avg 17. Flail of Ages: 7-12 damage +10. Aka 17-22 damage. Avg 19 < Best GWW weapon. Ravager +6: 7-16 + 3D6 poison (maybe) + Vorpal. < 10-34 damage if they fluff the save, Average 22 (or 11.5 if they save). Good vs. chaff from the vorpal. Add 1 if you have 2hS (and why wouldn't you?) Carsomyr +6: 7-18. Lame overrated sword is lame and only useful for the Dispel. Avg 12.5. Foebane +5: 7-13 +4, aka 11-17, 14 average, also recovers you around 40 HP, which is nice.
So yeah, you might want to GWW the Ravager, but FoA or Crom Faeyr is life. You could also just put FoA into your mainhand and offhand Crom with the GWW (sacrilege, I know) giving you 8 attacks of 23 average, and 2 attacks of 17 average, or the same thing with Foebane for 8 of 18, 2 of 17, and heal for 32.
4) Do note that Kensai and Swashbuckler bonus damage multiplies with backstab damage (this doesn't come up much for the swashbuckler unless you're multiclassed).
This means that the K>T backstab with Mislead + iHaste using Kai + Hindo's Doom and Belm means:
14 max'd Kai Hindo's Doom damage + 5 G.Mastery + 4 Kensai. All of this is multiplied, giving 23 x 5 = 115 damage per hit, 1150 damage in a round, before Strength (another +100) for 1250 damage.
Meanwhile GWW'd SotR, assuming it doesn't knockback and waste APR, gives 15.5 average damage per hit, +2 W.Spec = 17.5 x 5 = 87.5 damage per hit, 875 damage in a round, before strength and piercing bonus (125) for 1100 total.
6 APR from iHasted Critical Strike against a non-crit immune enemy pulls ahead, but only by around 50 points or so and only if they're not wearing a helmet.
And on general backstabbing, a K>T with something lame like the Spectral Brand gets 15-22 damage for their backstab if they put G.Mastery into Scimitars. That's 18.5 average damage (92.5), which is still more than the F/T gets from Staff of the Ram backstab.
5) Two K>Ts using Assassination for 4 hits of 92.5 each is pretty interesting, though the simulacrum doesn't really last long enough, or get refreshed frequently enough, to really make use of more than one or two HLAs or spells.
2) I meant damage buffs from -other- characters, hence the non-solo runs comment. Not sure where you're going with the "Sort of False" comment. Are you saying the K/T is "probably" going to land more hits than the F/T? 3) Strength belts? Potions? The machine of Lum the mad/Deck of Many Things? Tomes? 4) I thought offhand weapons can't backstab. 5) If you think that's interesting, you should see what an F/T can pull off with it.
2: Any buff cast upon either character I would suggest would work out in favour of a K>T, because a K>T gets same or more APR to leverage this bonus (and until 4.5e6 Exp, they also get a better THAC0), and because there are more buffs that increase To Hit than there are that increase damage - In fact it's really quite hard to increase base damage, outside of Tenser's Transformation and the Bard's Song not much springs to mind, and Tenser's is possibly a bad idea for an F/T to cast from a scroll, depending on how the 10 caster level works with the THAC0 setting.
3: Lums and Tomes with a Half-Orc Evil F/T starting with 19 plus Hell Trials gives 23 Strength, possibly 24 strength if the DoMT gives Strength instead of Dexterity (which for some reason it prefers to do for my thieves).
Outside of this singular and exceptional individual with 23-24 strength, however, these bonuses do not stack with belts, the best of which *sets* Strength to 22, or potions, which *sets* it to 24.
4: Hm, not sure either way, to be honest, but it's actually a fluff on my part either way, since that should have been x8 + x2 Belm, which is only 1000 damage without Belm (1040 assuming it can't backstab as an offhand). It is worth noting, however, that because Kai lasts two rounds, they can get two rounds of maxstabs compared to one GWW or CS.
Not that it really matters, considering how few things will survive the damage dealt by either character at the best of times.
5: I'm fascinated as to your input. You might try having a mage standing by with iHaste, and having the Simulacrum set up with a scroll of Mislead for 8 Critical Strike Mislead backstabs, but generally I'd have thought that a twenty second duration rather put a damper on meaningfully improving upon a few rounds of backstabbing.
2) The bard song is the most obvious source of extra damage. There are also priest spells (Bless, Aid, etc). Pre-HLAs the thing is that you do get Kundane/Belm very easily and while the K/T is busy trying to gain his fighter levels back the F/T is just walking around fighting stuff for 2 extra attacks per round. The amount of extra hits is going to accumulate.
3) Meh. I guess that leaves the Wish spell for 25 to all stats, though its random and you'll probably save that for boss fights.
5) Actually I was thinking something more along the lines of just facetanking an enemy mob with your Simulacrum stacking damage reductions and just spamming HLAs. Short, sweet, simple. You could try more interesting setups I suppose. Point is, the Simulacrum clone opens up a lot of options for the F/T. You use Smite to completely disable a caster with your clone as your PC CS/GWWs him to death, for example.
From Chateau Irenicus to Spellhold the k9->t (after referred to as kensai) has much higher thaco and 6 higher damage. Additionally the kensai has his full 2.5 attacks at 410,000 exp. The multi doesn't have 2.5 attacks until 2.5 million. Or 3.5 attacks with throwing daggers.
For that first 33% of the game the kensai is undoubtedly doing far superior damage with both thaco damage and attack advantages over the multi.
For the 2nd third of the game you are going through spellhold and emerging from the underdark. You will eventually get your UAI and have GM in dagger staff and at 28 two handed sword. You are still ahead in damage and thaco but attacks per round are even. Advantage still goes to the kensai.
For the last third of the game - watcher's keep and the expansion + elven city you'll see a discussion form around the strength of WW vs the extra damage. Each can use all the scrolls/potions they want - so really we need to focus on the differences. WW vs 6 damage
In an action starved environment where you are annihilating the screen of enemies in a few rounds (even in nightmare mode which is all i play) - you'll see the whirlwind not being as impactful as might be assumed. HOWEVER - even if we were to give the nod to the multiclass at this point - you've spent two thirds of bg2 and tob being objectively weaker.
And as far as strength buffs go. You'll want to give your thieves the 22 str belt eventually with the ring from your cleric for 23 strength. There are a few 24 str potions but better to use those on your archer with whirlwind and the erinne sling +5 with +4 bullets. Yep
As for downtime on the kensai (super annoying) but after the starting dungeon - the circus tent - mencar - the initial slaves (hendak) - and some spell memorization you are at 410,000 experience. Obviously your mileage may vary depending on how you play and how large your party is but the point is that the kensai has a very short downtime and is barely work considering in the scheme of things. If for any reason that down time was longer - I'd definitely be more for the multi as I really hate the awkwardness of dual classing and using Imoen in the starting dungeon. Personally I prefer the somewhat weaker kensai7->thief purely for the consistency of the first couple zones (but it is not as strong).
2: Pretty sure that Bless/Aid is to hit and saves only, but you're right that there's Chant as minimum damage boost. But yeah, I do appreciate the usual schtick about Dual Classing being terrible, I loathe it myself, though it's not quite so bad for dualling into a thief compared to anything else since it's such a comparatively small window (two levels for the F/T, 10/12 - 12/14). Obnoxious, but not quite so bad as some of the others.
3: Ugh, yeah, and it's only four rounds from the Wish option, right? At least it's only +1/+2 for the extra point of strength over the half-orc, can't imagine trying to get Wish to cooperate would be any fun.
5: Ah, fair enough. I suppose I'd have just considered using the simulacrum to layer up a quick batch of epic snares before going in for assassination, or carrying a scroll of Projected Image (I have honestly no idea how that would work with a caster that's about to disappear).
The back and forth here and the detailed analyses of weapon/class setups is fantastic but Tredvolt nailed it. "For the last third of the game". The last 3rd of the game, you finally start getting WW. Even then, are you going to rest after every single battle to get that 1 or 2 WWs back? You will still have your work cut out for you catching back up to the kensai with precious little of the game remaining. Where would you rather have power? Early where it's a tough game, or later where you're gods anyways? (Expansion really isn't hard enough) What if you had a 5-6 player party? Multi really falls off hard in those cases. This was merely a 4 player group comparison. The smallest power party I feel. Five is more powerful but makes the late game even less fun and easier. Also, increased item competition and decreased individual experience makes the early game tougher. Another bad trade, but that's another debate.
I see a lot of talk of dual wield but have you, my friends, really looked at the power and utility of a dagger that does 2d4+2 + str bonus + the extra attack? It's like throwing a +2 bastard sword with +1 attack. Kensai needs this safety and profits greatly with his +6 damage on the extra attack. Kensai can't normally even use a ranged weapon, but this weapon skirts the rule. Also, you get this silly thing near the beginning of the game!
When you get UAI and grandmaster two handed sword with liberal access to IH, things work out so beautifully as you can wear armor and weather melee combat more easily. Also, the range the two handed sword offers safety still yet. Wielding one handed weapons is a one way ticket to the danger zone. Many enemies will peel off onto you. You will get hit, you will run. Lost attacks. Is that included in the math? Also, the two handed style proficiency is more appealing and cost effective vs two weapon style. I only needed 1 pip in two handed style as a kensai to have Carsamyr at 0 weapon speed.
I love the theory crafting of this complex and colorful game. There are certainly things I miss. These are great debates, however, I feel there are a couple missing elements to the kensai vs multi counter points. So far my experience has me leaning, not only towards this class, but this very setup for the most powerful thief.
@Dukinson I suppose part of it is a question of playstyle. If you, like me, have a habit of double billing experience rewards and inviting every mage you meet on quiet study dates, then 3e6 Exp becomes less "last third of the game" and more "Okay, time to move onto Chapter 3", so late bloomers become a lot more entertaining.
Concerning multiclass, do note that they never "fall off hard" in the early game, completely the opposite, a Multiclass Fighter/Thief is 1 THAC0 behind the Fighter up to level 10, with an x4 backstab handshake based off Fighter THAC0, full plate and full thieving progression. In the parts of the game where you're weak, multiclasses are strong. It's only later, "last third" when duals replenish that multiclasses start to slow down.
Concerning weapon speed: Meh. It means you hit moderately sooner in the round. That's it, you don't hit more often, you don't deal more damage, you hit earlier. This is completely incidental 90% of the time, and if we're being honest, the thief can supply proficiency pips for Single Weapon Style and Two Weapon Style without so much as a hiccup while they're waiting to regain their levels.
Incidentally, in regards to Fighter 13>Swashbuckler for part of that, then I'll just quickly review:
- Swashbucklers do not need stealth. They can always be wearing full plate armour as soon as their multi kicks in, they are not squishy. - Swashbucklers have the best AC in the game, bar none. By the time you grab your one handed weapon and step into the danger zone (which is a rather curious notion considering how briefly things tend to survive melee once you're outputting that much damage in a round with any class), nobody that's not a mage is going to out tank you:
That's -15 AC in SoA right after you regain your class levels, -19 with a mage to supply Improved Invisibility. The majority of enemies in SoA haven't got a negative THAC0, so the majority only hit on a crit even before you finish going through Watchers Keep, and you haven't even picked up a shield yet (meaning you'd "only" have 3 APR with +3 damage per hit swashie bonus when you're not using whirlwind). With the Saving Grace, your AC drops to -23, Firkraag without debuffs or any other buffs has a -12 THAC0, so he has a less than 50% chance of hitting you, your average Balor hits on a crit (except that Firkraag doesn't deal blunt damage, so he's actually at a major penalty to hit you, particularly if you swap belts).
If you start including other buffs and a potion of mind focusing for tough battles (-1), PfE10' (-2), Defensive Harmony (-2), that's -28 AC, lower against slashing and piercing, and Firkraag needs a critical hit to hit you.
When you hit ToB, you get Bard Gloves -1 AC, the Darksteel Shield (another -1) , upgrade to White Dragon Scale (-2) and your swashbuckler bonus drops to -6, so your AC is an effective -33 (plus particular damage type bonuses) while buffed, holding Crom Faeyr, and Whirlwinding, -19 when you're dual wielding with no shield or buffs, and you can now use scrolls of Blur to give another -3 to hit penalty against anything stupid enough to target you.
tl;dr: The level after Swashbucklers get UAI they can hit an effective -36 AC and keeps getting better. They can single wield if they like.
Because single handed weapons
- Generally I stuck to a single weapon to make comparisons easier as much as because you're dealing literally double the damage as you get with a two handed weapon, but just as with the boomerang dagger it's also worth noting is that Swashbucklers make surprisingly good Archers if you're into that (and are willing to make the proficiency investment), getting 3 APR with the Sling of Everard and stockpiling the created +4 Sling Bullets from the other sling gives them 1D4+5 damage bullets that hurt everything, gain strength and Buckling bonus, and the SoE+5 is available pretty early on. Or just hold out for Firetooth, since even with just proficiency you get 5 APR with Big Metal Ammo plus Swash.
Ooo, and since I just noticed F/M/T was on the table for discussion, I'll cover those in a bit.
2) 5) Actually I was thinking something more along the lines of just facetanking an enemy mob with your Simulacrum stacking damage reductions and just spamming HLAs. Short, sweet, simple. You could try more interesting setups I suppose. Point is, the Simulacrum clone opens up a lot of options for the F/T. You use Smite to completely disable a caster with your clone as your PC CS/GWWs him to death, for example.
Aside from the fact, that you can use a Simulacrum with a Dual as well, putting down a Mage doesn't require much more than stripping his defenses. Once that is achieved, they go down in 2-3 hits.
Concerning weapon speed: Meh. It means you hit moderately sooner in the round. That's it, you don't hit more often, you don't deal more damage, you hit earlier. This is completely incidental 90% of the time, and if we're being honest, the thief can supply proficiency pips for Single Weapon Style and Two Weapon Style without so much as a hiccup while they're waiting to regain their levels.
Well you do hit earlier, and very often this results in a dead opponent, before he even got the chance to strike back. It does have quite an impact.
It gets even better with the Firetooth Dagger. Btw, if you *really* want to, you can actually have your K/T using Slings, Darts and Bows. You can acquire pips once you have dualed, just need to wait for UAI for the actual weapons to be useable. The reason why I prefer TWF over 2H is a) 2H Swords don't qualify as Backstab weapon. Only Quarterstaffs do. But they aren't Swords, and the only good one for a long time is one that works with charges. I don't like charge items. b) You cannot get up to 10APR if you want to c) 2 weapons allow for a wider range of beneficial status effects that come from wielding enchanted weapons. For example wearing Adjatha and the Dragonslayer to have a Mind Shield+Fear Immunity and Regen. d) RP-reasons, I like to play somewhat lorefriendly. Kensai are quick and nimble fighters. 2-Handed Swords are too brutish to fit into the picture. So only Longswords, Short Swords, Katanas and Daggers for me.
So yeah, I won't cover Mage/Thief in the context of this thread, because it's simply not sporting, since full level 9 casting Mages occupy the top twenty tiers in terms of character power in general for reasons I do not feel the need to reiterate they've been echoed throughout the history of the game, and their superiority is not very much to do with being a thief.
F/M/Ts, however, are much more readily comparable, since they tend towards self buffing melee.
That's a 1/2 APR and 1 THAC0 off Fighter/Thief, and 1 APR, 4 THAC0 off a full Fighter (6 for Kensai), in exchange for level 3 spells, and the F/M/T is just as good a thief as the multiclass, and infinitely better than the Fighter.
Assuming they have the DUHM Dreamnate and grab the tome they can put points into Disarm, Lockpick and Set Snare to 70/90/70 to get max Disarm, which with your DUHM innate gives 80/100/80 at this point, letting you clear the majority of locks (Knock spell for the rest) and all traps while the majority of snares lay successfully.
Level 3 spells means things like two Mirror Images a day (ignore AOE damage, gain huge amounts of durability), Ghost Armour (Fullplate when you probably can't get full plate), spell interrupting Magic Missiles, and they've been dominating most of BG1 with Sleep, plus they have a free scout (kitty!) for bonus HP to cover another significant thieving roll (and no, multiclasses do not take a long time to level up early on). And that's if you don't want to get into the crowd control/team support game with web (amazing), haste (as good as your party is), and spook (a lot of BG1 enemies will fail a -3 penalty spell save, and it keeps getting better up to -6).
F/M/T is now tied with the Fighter/Thief in APR, 1/2 behind the Fighter, and has level 4 and 5 spells. By around this point, both multis have enough thieving mojo to have Detect Illusions and some stealth boosts as well.
Level 4 spells means Polymorph Self - total immunity to Pit Fiends, Liches, mages, electricity, guys stupid enough to wield shortswords, daggers or spears, beholders, gauth... And if the bug with the spell gets fixed, also Vampire level drain and schlubs with non-magical weapons. In short, it's pretty much the most powerful tanking spell in the game in terms of "people you can now ignore". Lesser Sequencer can also regain their original weapons if you don't mind cheese (lesser cheese than mislead in any case), you can easily use Poly.Self to become a 5 APR Gatling Spider, throwing 5 sling bullets or Dawnstar strikes per round at this point.
It also means Fire Shields and Stoneskins, so you can supplement your damage with fire or cold damage every time someone wastes energy hitting you for 0 damage. Note, every time *they* hit you, so if you're surrounded later on, that's actually better for you, since they'll all be taking damage while you hide behind PfMW for four rounds.
Level 5 spells means Spell Immunity - Aka tank Kangaxx and win, instantly cast it any other time (since it bypasses your aura) someone casts a spell you really need to avoid killing you, Cloudkill (slaughter groups of trolls, lock down mages), Feeblemind (It's a level 5 Finger of Death spell which approximately five enemies in the game are immune to), and, of course, Breach. Breach and Lower Resistance are game defining options because Mages are game defining fights all by themselves.
2/3 Soa: 2e6.
Dualled Fighter: Level 13 Thief. - They've sucked for the last 750,000 Exp. Fighter/Thief: 12/14. F/M/T: 10/11/13.
This is the "awkward teens". though just picked up their x5 Backstab, F/M/Ts are 250,000 Exp away from level 6 spells (PfMW, iHaste, and, of course, Mislead), F/Ts are 500,000 Exp away from their extra 1/2 APR, and the Dual is 130k away from being a Kensai again. Once the F/M/T hits level 6, they'll be able to dominate one fight per day thanks to their baked in buffs, while generally being the sturdiest out of the three for the rest of the day, which generally works out better than the 1/2 APR of the F/T, but they'll sacrifice some damage compared to the K>T dual, whose +7 effective damage and +1 APR is hard to compete with (though with spells you can come pretty close).
On the plus side, this is around the point where every single one of them has enough skill points to do whatever decently well.
3/3 SoA: 3e6.
Dualled Fighter: Is now 13>17. The Kensai has 3 APR +4 hit/damage +3 G.Mastery vs. Specialisation, the >Swashbuckler has come into +3 hit/damage, +4 AC putting them at 4 and 5 effective THAC0 respectively. Fighter/Thief: 14/16, 1 HLA. 7 THAC0, 2.5 APR. F/M/T: 12/12/14, 1 HLA. 9 THAC0, 2 APR, level 6 spells.
Here's where how valuable your party contribution is depends strongly on what's available to you. A self-buffing F/M/T has 4 spells per day of everything up to level 6, and is 300,000 Exp away from 5/5/5/4/4/2. Having buffs "baked in" rather than wasting actions and slots that your party mages could be dominating combats with is also a pretty big bonus, but for the first time the F/M/T has competition. Wand-use, which before this meant -4 Save or stuns, Cloudkills on demand, 12D6 scorchers and 18D6 lightning bolts, and scroll use, which meant Misleads whenever you found a scroll, is now in the hands of the F/T as well, just in time for ToB.
1/3 ToB: 4.5e6
Dual: 13>25. 2 HLAs. K>T hasn't changed, except they now get armour. Welcome to the party, guys. F>S now has +5 damage, 3 THAC0, and -6 AC compared to -2. F/T: 17/20. 4 THAC0, 8 HLAs. F/T can now bust out Critical Strikes, GWWs and generally go around being a jerk. Jerks. F/M/T: 14/14/16. 7 THAC0, 7 HLAs, and finally up to 2.5 APR like the F/T when they're not breaking the rules by turning into a flaming poisonous invincible sword spider with a bastard sword, the F/M/T now has a level 7 spell, and since GWW is for Billy No Mage, they have sensibly been spending two of their HLAs on getting EVEN MORE SPELLS, giving them two level 7 spells and three level 6 spells. Asides from being able to create invincible swords to tank for them, wish they could have more stoneskins (and finally being listened to, for a change), and casting Project Image to lay every single one of their HLA traps for free, plus one of the other two things I just mentioned before their image puts on both types of fireshield, stoneskins, mirror images, Spell Immunity: Divination and marches to their deaths as a sacrificial tank for the rest of the party.
2/3 ToB: 6e6
Dual: 13>31. 8 HLAs. Swash now has +6 damage, 2 THAC0, and -7 AC. F/T: 20/23. 1 THAC0 and 14 HLAs, still swimming in Fighter HLAs and hoping they don't run out of scrolls of mislead. F/M/T: 16/15/19. 5 THAC0 and 13 HLAs, Still short of level 8 spells (6.5e6), and level 15 mage being almost a dead level, the lowly F/M/T still only has 5/5/5/5/5/3/2 spells, or "30 spells per day", presumably including something like three misleads for four effective Assassinations per day, three of which involve GWW.
3/3 ToB: 7.5e6
Dual: 13>38. Swash peaked awhile back at +7/+7/-8 and 1 THAC0, and they now have 15 HLAs. F/T: 23/27. Capped 0 THAC0, 21 HLAs. They could probably burn a few GWWs every combat and have spare by the end of the day. F/M/T: 18/16/21. F/M/Ts still have two levels in them before the cap, but by this point, it's just two more HLAs (18 at this point), so meh. They've peaked at 3 THAC0, level 8 spells (two of 'em) for things like Spell Trigger (target must Save vs. Spells three times in a row at -2 or become a vegetable, assuming you forgot the G.Malaison), Simulacrum (eat your heart out Vhailor's, these last for 16 rounds, or over a minute and a half, and have their own spells up to around level 4 or so for Stoneskins+Mirror Images), and they now have a fourth level 7 spell.
While they may not deal the most damage per hit at any particular level, or have the lowest THAC0, or the lowest AC, the F/M/T has a grab bag of immunities and perks at all levels thanks to spellcasting that make it a very strong contender in general, the ability to use Scrolls and Wands early on, when they matter most, and in a party without a handy buffing mage (and let's face it, Edwin may prefer not wasting his spells on you lowly monkeys) they can produce effects that neither of the others can attain, and even with another mage, all the best mage buffs are self-only, giving them bonuses the others can't attain without burning through a strictly limited resource of scrolls,
A Kensai/Thief is a better backstabber thanks to the damage bonuses and Kai, but I'm not sure it's worth the trade overall.
Before recovering its Kensai levels: Significantly worse performance as both a fighter and a thief. After recovering its Kensai levels: Slightly better performance as a fighter. Before 3 million XP: The Kensai/Thief can't use a fighter's armor, helms, or shields. After 3 million XP: The Kensai/Thief can't use fighter HLAs, and gets fewer HLAs in general.
As you can see throughout the vast majority of the game the Kensai->Thief significantly outperforms the F/T in {damage}. Even at high exp values in ToB the only argument is that whirlwinds and higher thaco will overwhelm the 6 damage bonus (and this may very well be true).
Defensively the F/T is far above the Kensai (saves, armor, helm) with the kensai only being ahead on hit points in this evaluation.
It is ultimately subjective what you choose to value in your campaign but we should not misunderstand the significant damage contribution difference between these two classes. The Kensai does shockingly more damage than the F/T through most of the game and at least for me this has resulted in faster playthroughs and a stronger overall party.
@semiticgod kensai->thief is stronger as a fighter up until 250k and weaker as a thief. Then he is weaker as thief and fighter for 160k experience until he his 410k in the slums. From 410k until most of the game is over he is a much stronger fighter offensively until multiple whirlwinds come into play in TOB.
I've seen a few people mention the recovery window as such a huge counterpoint to kensai->thief when in actual play reality it is such a tiny period I don't even miss any traps or locks before it is regained.
I feel like I'm repeating some fairly obvious stuff and I'm probably running the risk of being annoying so I'll just wrap up with saying in the end what you choose to value is going to be different from other people based on your preferred play style and comfort. For me I like the Kensai7->Thief even though it is weaker, just because I hate using imoen in the starting dungeon and hate waiting on the (albeit small) period where kensai9 comes back online.
I keep seeing weapon speed brought up. Bear in mind, once you're improved hasted/whirlwinding, weapon speed gets ignored anyway in favor of cramming all of your attacks into one round. If it was ever a consideration to begin with (which I'm skeptical of), it's null by that point.
Yeah, that's basically scraping the bottom of the barrel. That's only a real issue in BG1 where a single attack can actually kill you/severely hurt you so speed factor is actually a thing.
@Tredvolt Sure, if all your K/T and F/T ever do is use just one weapon type through most of SoA then those damage THAC0/damage values are constant. I'm guessing not, though. And I don't really mind having slightly less THAC0/damage in SoA (because relatively speaking, that's what it amounts to when people are using strength belts/powerful enchanted weapons and a fireball wand can still clear a room). Granted, if you like exploring the bottom of WK or challenging things like dragons early on then the THAC0/damage bonus is obviously significant. But I would certainly mind it though if I'm in late SoA/ToB and one of my melee guys can't use Critical Strike/whirlwinds, especially if I already have a shortage of characters with access to warrior HLAs. It's simply not acceptable.
BTW, I'm not sure why it's taking so long for you guys to get your HLAs. You should start getting them by the later part of Underdark (after having finished most of the quests), unless you've taken a vow of only getting XP from kills/quests I suppose. BG2 usually starts off slow, which is why downtime at the beginning is actually a thing. Once you've killed enough enemies/finished enough quests though then things just start to snowball and regardless of whether you have a K/T in your party or not, your party is going to rampage through everything because you'll have more gold than you know what to do with (even after going on gear/scroll shopping spree) and everyone should be equipped with potential end-game gear. That's usually how things go in my games.
We're not exactly talking about solo characters. If the thread was about solo I'm pretty sure this thread would be about the FMT instead of the F/T or K/T.
@jinxed75 You can use another ranged weapon but you cannot go beyond one proficiency so you would never do it. Going staves and two handed swords means only 1 proficiency in a weapon style. It goes without saying but I'll say it, staves are the most powerful backstab weapon. That's what we're after here. I REALLY wanted TWS to work but it just doesn't. It's closer, more difficult to position, more dangerous, and annoying to swap out the offhand for the staff.
I do like the magical bonuses of using two weapons but the weapons are about damage and I'll sacrifice a minor bonus or two for more power. Getting to 10 attacks is nice but the OH attacks will be weak or unproficient (dagger you get to 8 ranged, IH) and it's not crucial if the sacrifices are too great. For the kensai, they indeed too great. Now an armor wearing thief variant might pull it off but I've gone over it again and again and I just can't seem to justify it over the dagger/staff/two handed sword setup. Two weapons works well on paper but not in a pragmatic sense. Could a kensai drink a lot of defensive potions and dual wield? Perhaps but there aren't enough potions early on to be armored 100% of the time. Even so while armored up, the tank will always be better at soaking damage and the most powerful thief should focus on dealing damage. Late game no armor level the K/T could reach would save you from the peril or TWS range. Remember, we're playing on NM mode. It's very dangerous. The range of daggers and two handed weapons wins out. Even a multi F/T will have trouble tanking hits w/o a shield and late game. I know because I did this two runs ago. Swash could be the only one... the only thief who could pull off dual wielding in NM mode. An intriguing class but I'll get to that in a minute.
If what you choose is for RP reasons, I understand but this is about the most powerful thief. If I, as a thief, must explode people with a two handed sword... so be it! Most of the game you throw daggers anyways. Usually following a backstab from an early acquired SoS or SoR. My friend commented on a Naruto style comparison (thiefy?). Only in the end of the underdark do I unleash the Carsomyr from the bag. I've tried two handers before that and it's just worse over the range and attacks of the throwing dagger.
@Pantalion & @Nuin I realize weapon speed isn't the largest factor but it is one. These are points that add up. However, the weapon speed wasn't my main point. The point was I only needed one proficiency in two handed style. That's it. If you're dual wielding you need 3 pips and 1 or 2 for THS to do SoS and SotR backstabs as well as Carsomyr WWs. This is why this path is so great, at least for the kensai. Multi's can't grandmaster so they have the proficiencies to throw around.
@Pantalion We don't do any scroll shenanigans or any other xp boosting we don't have to. Haha, "double billing", goodness. We also don't do quests that lead to items we don't need. That, ofcourse, is a subjective choice. The game already takes some time to beat so we try not to drag it out with long, inane quests. Otherwise those "late bloomers" would come online sooner. If you did everything you could to milk xp, you would indeed made a better case. Infact, this point may be the best point I've heard for the multi F/T or F/M/T so far. Just do every quest and kill everything you can. The M/T I consider to be not so great (it's a thief variant and ok to debate). I can't imagine the tremendous loss of fighter powers being worth higher mage and thief levels. If a K/T and a M/T were in the same party there would be no question in my mind. At the end of the game the K/T would have far more kills.
Btw, shapechanging and dispelling your weapons, I don't believe that was an intended dynamic so I consider it unfair.
Swash. Oh the almost awesome swash! This is the one kit that made me come the conclusion dualing into kits was unfair. Grand mastery with WW, +8 ac and +7 dmg/thaco was it? Ya that's over the top. I might try it once to see just how broken it is. The only legit way to play swash is dual FROM swash at 10 to fighter but this takes a lot longer and I don't think it's stronger than the K/T with the loss of backstabs and thief skills.
I'd also like to address this dualing at 13. So, who's your early game thief? Who disarms your traps while you go through a third of the game waiting to even begin building your thief skills. 2130000 xp to come fully back online. This seems like madness to me and I've been itching to ask you this for some time. Do you not pick pockets early on when you really need the gold? Do you have two thieves? Which thief gets the strength belt? Who gets the best items? Who did you make weaker so you could make this character stronger? Do you bring in a temp thief and share xp with another party member, slowing down progression? A dualed to 13 thief might be stronger eventually... but the party sure won't be. Even dualing at 9 takes some gymnastics. This seems like the limit dualing can be taken realistically. Sure you can do it later but what is lost is simply greater than what is gained over "the course of the game". A dualed 13K/T vs a 9K/T will absolutely have less kills at the end of the game and hurt the party. Period. If you can convince me otherwise, you should apply for Kissinger's old job. The most powerful thief isn't the thief with the flashiest character sheet at the end of the game, it's the one who contributed the most throughout the game while taking the least. This insures power wasn't taken or siphoned (thus truly decreasing damage) from other party members.
@Nuin You say "Sure, if all your K/T and F/T ever do is use just one weapon type through most of SoA then those damage THAC0/damage values are constant. I'm guessing not, though." What did you mean here? Does the Kensai bonus stop working with certain weapons? No, you didn't mean that. Perhaps you meant there are weapons that are better the K/T is not using? Well the K/T would use them if there were better weapons so that's level ground. Whatever belts or other enchanted gear are available, you can assume the K/T would use those items as well.
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Phew... I think I responded to everyone and I'll close on this. Tredvolts damage lead chart was the best cut and dry proof of power by the K/T. In order to pass the K/T simply on the character sheet you basically have to close in on beating the game. You still have 2 HLA more powerful than WW to pick! UAI and asssasinate. That's level 26 at 3.52mil before you can even get your first WW to look upon.
I have played the multi F/T and simply performed worse against this monster. I had less kills and not by a little. Eventually you get 21 WWs as the multi F/T but it's too little too late. There are times where a scroll, potion, item, or some other action is the smart move and it does hurt a little to use them over a WW for that round. So in those moments the kensai again takes the lead. Both have assassinate so that's one action on level ground and superior to a WW. Lastly, the K/T had liberal access to IH (6-8 attacks +6dmg each) in this campaign. Even in the expansion it's not all glory to the multi F/T and his bucket of WWs. If you haven't tried my recommended setup for K/T, I would invite you to indeed try it. Come back and tell me it isn't more powerful than the multi F/T or anything else for that matter once you have. I would be surprised if you did.
It just means what I said it means. He basically combined the +THAC0/damage of grandmastery and the bonus from Kensai and just assumed that these bonuses would stay constant throughout. You get around 14 or so proficiency points pre-ToB. Grandmastery takes 5, dual-wielding takes 3, and another grandmastery takes 5. That leaves you 1 point for anything else. So what happens when you dual-wield Belm and Kundane? What happens if you want to use the Mace of Disruption/Daystar/Azure Edge against the undead? Crom Faeyr? The Flail of Aegis? The Equalizer (+6 damage against chaotic evil, which is a lot of stuff, and applies to both weapons if dual-wielding)? And you obviously have to make room for staffs for backstabbing. I could go on.
So unless you only stick to using a few weapon types throughout the game, then the bonuses he mentions are actually lower.
At this point I think no one is disputing that the K/T i better than the F/T given your setup, but the issue is that you played the "most powerful thief" card. That's bound to attract all kinds of interesting topics heh.
For the record, a Kensai dual-class would get +5 to hit and +6 to damage with one weapon type thanks to grandmastery, and +3 to hit and damage with other weapon types, relative to a multi-class. The Kensai bonus applies to all weapons; the Grandmastery bonus applies to only some. @Nuin was referring to the GM bonus, to point out that only part of the Kensai's damage advantage was universal.
However, in most versions of the game, it's possible for a dual-class fighter to put more than two pips in any weapon even after dualing from fighter. A Kensai/Thief could therefore get Grandmastery in multiple weapon types. But it would have very few pips with which to do so. Getting Grandmastery in two weapons takes as many pips as attaining specialization in five weapons--it's kind of a lot.
For the record, the F/M/T is not, and never was, a late bloomer. They're well into being the most powerful by around 1e6, because by this point they have level 5 spells, and can tank and kill pretty much anything.
But now we're talking mage versus fighter, are we?
The Mage/Thief without Fighter levels. Remember I'm talking Gnomes, because Gnomes are the master race.
BG1:
Starting out: Sleep. The Mage/Thief just killed four people. It doesn't matter who slits their throats, that's just book keeping. The fight was won when the Mage cast one spell, took 80% of the enemies out of the fight, and allowed the rest of the party to focus fire the final remaining enemy to death.
TotSC Cap: 7/8.
The M/T has 5/4/3/2 spells.
I won't bother doing this for every level, but here's a few uses for those spells in a few major encounters per workday in BG1.
Fight #1: They backstab the enemy mage, cast invisibility, then backstab the enemy mage again before retreating back to where they laid three snares, Ravaging the rest of the group.
Fight #2: They drop a web (save -2), paralysing half of the enemy force at a time, meaning the entire party takes less damage while taking down helpless victims with a bow, disrupting any free mages that try to cast with a magic missile or two.
Fight #3: They cast Resist Fear on the party, rendering the attempted horror spell pointless, before casting Glitterdust to blind half the enemy party, turning them into harmless mooks for four rounds while the party cleans up the remainder.
Fight #4: No nonsense Fireball to the face for the enemy party, then once more for luck to account for 56 damage to each. Go mop up for me, lowly peons.
Fight #5: They drop a web (save -2), a Greater Malaison (web save -6), turn into a spider for 4 APR and walk amongst the helpless targets and devour the lot.
Well, I still have spells left, but nap time? Okay, Invisibility 10' Radius. Everyone get some shuteye, and rest assured that you're completely immune to bedbugs.
Fight #6: Oh, ambushed by Ankhegs? Oh fine, I still had a spell slot spare. Sleep. Ankheg fight won. It's a good thing too, I almost forgot to cast Melf's Minute Meteors to get a handful of death rocks for tearing through stoneskins, mirror images and people in general.
Good morning world! Oh no! Five mages just appeared! Best turn into a Mustard Jelly, sludge on over and then shoot myself over and over with Wand of Fire charges while the rest of the party waits in perfect safety.
A mage generally cares very little about THAC0, AC or damage per hit, because a mage simply isn't playing the same game as anyone else. Mages mostly care about saving throws, particularly other peoples', and making them fail them.
But sure, Mage wants to go into melee today? Fine, keep the bow. Let's go with Fire Shield Red, Mirror Images x3, Stoneskins. 1D8+2 damage every time an enemy hits you, no MR, and whoever fails their save at -4 from the wand of paralysation gets to eat 2 APR bow damage at 3D6 damage acid arrows while they tank the rest of the enemy. By the time their four buff spells are done, that's 78 average damage dealt to whichever unfortunate saps tried removing it.
SoA 1/3: 11/12.
The M/T has 5/5/5/4/4 spells.
They can now solo Kangaxx and every single lich in the game. In fact, they could kill four liches per day at pretty much zero risk without a ring of wizardry.
They can now take out cowled wizard patrols solo.
They have now enough slots to regularly sequencer away their Poly.Self spider weapons to get 5 APR with any weapon that a thief can use, all while still using the exact same Web combo to disable everyone and summoning even more spiders to do their dirty work for them.
They can now waste spells buffing the party's lowly peons with haste. When the Mage casts haste, who's providing the extra damage per round? Is it the fighter, or is it the mage?
They can now cast Fire Shield Red, Blue, Stoneskins and Mirror Images. To get through their five images and five stonskins is 20D8+20 damage, no save.
They can kill groups of trolls, umber hulks, ankhegs, and so forth with Cloudkill spells they cast themselves, assuming they can't find a wand.
They can now breach enemy mages of their annoying protections.
They can combine Greater Malaison with Feeblemind for a -6 save penalty. 20% of level 10 fighters will make that save, the rest are now braindead, and can be murdered by the Mage/Thief's familiar, because they are dead.
When they aren't taking out groups with web, they can use Chaos instead, a -4 save penalty (-8 with Greater Malaison) where their victims either stand around helplessly while the M/T shoots them to death with a bow, attack each other (Damage Mitigation for your party AND damage to your enemy that the M/T provided), or wander around aimlessly.
SoA 2/3: 12/14
The M/T has 5/5/5/5/5/2 spells.
Forget what I said last post about awkward teens, M/Ts now have mislead, can attack 3 times per round with Belm, and has an x5 backstab. They also have Improved Haste, if they feel like dealing 20 hits worth of damage per combat round for a single combat, rather than ten hits worth of damage per combat round for two combats.
And yes, they still have a huge number of other spells to make sure that they cannot be killed, cannot be targeted by spells, that the lowly peons fighters who serve them can feel relevant by dealing HP damage, and retain the option to just do things the lame way by unleashing 10D6 fireballs on groups of people for 35 average damage per round per person. Spook, their level 1 Save or "Get out of my hair for three rounds" now has a -8 save penalty, giving it a 60% chance of taking out the level 40 Fighter who just wandered in from ToB and used GWW, 80% with a Malaison.
If they get particularly feisty, the M/T can also pull out a PfMW to make themselves completely untouchable to such nasties as Mind Flayers, but let's face it, dealing 8D8+16 damage to every mindflayer in melee range with zero risk is at best a plan B, since Greenstone Amulet charges aren't free.
SoA 3/3: 14/16 - 1 HLA.
The M/T has 6/6/6/5/5/3/2 spells.
The M/T has UAI so they can stop using the Staff of the Magi to dispel people in exchange for Carsomyr (I'm not sure why they'd do this, since the Staff of the Magi is better, but they can). They can also now join the "helmets" party, get an extra 1/2 APR with the gauntlets (at least until ToB when they ditch them for the Wondrous Gloves of bonus spells per day),and become immune to ranged weapons with the shield (without significantly gimping their performance, since they're already winning encounters with spells)...
They get more snares than anyone else thanks to project image, three Misleads, can summon Mordenkainen's Swords (quasi immortal, psi-immune +4 swords of tanking), Just cast up a projected image, cast whatever spells and snares them need, then buff them up with Fire Shields and stoneskins and send them to go tank enemies outside of the line of sight for the good ol' 20D8+20 no save while taking scratch elemental damage at best. Worried about your body getting attacked while you're gone? Contingency: When Helpless: Invisibility.
Or just Wish for more spells, because the only thing better than six level 1,2,3 and 4 spells is seven level 1, 2, 3 and 4 spells. You can even AOE heal your entire party. Not sure why you'd want to, but it's a possible.
For bonus prep this also includes spending a level 7 spell sequencer one day to instantly cast Mirror Images, Stoneskins and a fireshield as an innate, letting you pull off the combination while polymorphed.
ToB 1/3: 4e6 16/20 - 7 HLAs.
Being a mage, naturally this includes 1 spell of each level HLA, UAI, and your choice of two epic snares, so you have:
6/6/6/6/6/5/4/3 spells.
Asides from the project image spell giving double everything (including those Spike Traps), you now have level 8 spells, and screw simulacrum, we're playing for keeps.
Power Word Blind - Wreck mages, archers, and send most fighters wandering around looking for you, in an AOE no-save-just-suck. Power Word Stun - Save or be helpless for pretty much the rest of the battle, AOE with a -4 save penalty. -4 spell penalties means a base 50% chance of failure for even ToB enemies. Spell Trigger - Greater Malaison + Feeble Mind + Feeble Mind = level 30 mages have a 25% chance of not becoming a drooling vegetable. If you want to cast a GM first, this can be Feeble Mind x3 for a 12.5% chance to make the save, or a 6.4% for your average epic level fighter saves user. Works best in a tag team with your buddy the cleric of course, who can use Doom and Chant to give that particular combination a 1.5% chance of not taking out pretty much any single target in the game that isn't a lich, and this can be replenished whenever you're in a nice safe town with some downtime at the local inn, meaning it doesn't interfere with your daily spells either.
I'll take a moment to note that a good proportion of the previous tactics still work perfectly well for the M/T, if not better, as it goes up in levels, so all those lower level spells are still doing their jobs to make sure the mage/thief can be tank if they want to (PfMW alone means your average 5 APR chump takes 130 damage by the end of the buff, while they're still chunking enemies with mislead shenanigans whenever the mood takes them).
ToB 2/3: 6e6 18/23 - 12 HLAs.
6/6/6/6/6/5/5/4/2
Everybody else can go home, the Mage/Thief now has level 9 spells and Summon Planetar (this could be Improved Alacrity, but we'll save that for last).
In addition to turning into a magic immune golem (it's a nice change from the magic immune slime they've been able to turn into since level 7), they can also turn into a Mind Flayer, Improved Haste, and enough Time Traps to jump a time zone.
Mind Flayers get 2 APR, 4 APR iHaste, and kill Yaga Shura in three hits, Sendai in five hits, Draconis in four hits, Abazigal in four hits... Yaga Shura's army? Buff up and send the army, you won't get Exp for killing anyone as a Mind Flayer, but who cares? You don't need Exp anymore, and you will tear through the entire army pretty much solo in rounds.
About to meet a boss? Chain Contingency: Cast any three spells you like up to level 8 based off various conditions, like "see enemy". You can already deal with most things instantly with Spell Trigger, so let's go with something tame like instant cast three symbol of stuns to target "the first enemy you see", which happens to be the group of massed high level fighters you gathered together in close proximity with an invisible summon earlier? Greater Malaison from just out of line of sight, SoStun x3 triggers when the first one showed up, Save or Stun at -8, three times. Out of twenty gathered fighters, about "one" made their save, the rest are stunned for 20 rounds. Risk free extermination? Worst case just summon some monsters and then kite the lone survivor while they straight up murder the rest.
Feel like not breaking the game? Summon a Planetar instead. These suckers mean that the M/T now has a cleric in a box, raising and healing pretty much whenever before being sent off to die while doing what damage it can muster with its vorpal sword (, insect plagues, no save Holy Words (for instant spell failure), MR ignoring Firestorms and even more self-contained save or sucks which cost the M/T nothing.
Want to cast spells forever? Keep a stack of scrolls of Power Word Kill in your pocket, cast Spell Trap, cast Project Image, have the Projected Image cast Power Word Kill on you a few times, completely restore a bunch of high level spells you lost. Or just memorise Power Word Kill, Spell Trap and Delayed Blast Fireball. Project Image costs you zero spell slots, you can now do this all week while the fighters are complaining of "fatigue". The higher your level, the easier you can break spell economy with zero risk of failure, unlike Wish cycling.
ToB 3/3: 7.5e6 20/27 - 18 HLAs.
M/T has 6/6/6/6/6/6/5/5/3 spells.
You just picked up a third level 9 spell, letting you combine Spell Trap, Shapechange and Power Word Kill for infinite Shapechanges per day without using image scrolls, along with every other spell in the game you have below level 8.
Since this is late ToB, I feel zero guilt in using Improved Alacrity, which is basically: Do any of the things you wanted to do at any other time, except do them now, all at once, in the same round, because some things just need killing.
While Dragon's Breath is 20D8 with save MR-ignoring party friendly fire damage with every image, honestly you might as well send off that single Projected Image casting the old, old Fire Shield x2 + PfMW shtick, for 40D8+80 damage no save against the proverbial 5 APR enemy (80D8+160 if they use GWW) while the image casts save or sucks against any mages in the area (you'll want an expendable scout, such as a wizard's eye or a K>T to walk ahead and spot for you, then clean up anything that survived).
By the time level 9 Kensai has started their dual, the M/T has level 4 spells and can tank most of the dangerous enemies in the game while dealing hundreds of damage with Fire Shields. Assuming you are not artificially restricting rests, they have enough spells to contribute meaningfully (and by meaningfully I mean "dominating") with spells in easily five or more major encounters per day. By the time the K>T is level 7 Thief, and there is no reason why your Mage/Thief does not have the Ring of Gaxx, they can take out everything involved solo. They can also beat pretty much the entirety of D'Arnisse Keep, solo, four massed groups of trolls at a time before taking out Torgal and his buddies while the rest of the party sits and watches.
By the time the K>T starts to feel good about their damage, the M/T has been taking out entire groups of enemies and rendering them helpless since level 1.
By the time the F>S gets back online, the M/T stopped caring about AC awhile ago and outside of smug superiority at being able to get their AC higher than anyone else if they want to, they never care again.
By the time the F/T is stocking up on GWWs, the M/T is summoning copies of itself which tank better and hurt more than pretty much anyone else in the game that's not also a high level mage, are completely expendable, and can still dominate the battlefield with the exact same save or sucks that have been turning fights in your favour since level 3.
By the time the K>T is hoarding scrolls of mislead and using Assassination to feel good about itself, Oh goody! You can deal 40 more damage per backstab? Who cares? The M/T has been mislead backstabbing for half of SoA for minimum +20 damage per hit three times a round, and by the time you manage the same trick the M/T can do it more times per day than there are scrolls in Saradush.
When I say it's not a fair comparison, I mean it. Mages are, and always have been, better than fighters in anything but a no-resting environment. Fighters are underpaid chumps who stand in front and take damage, mages are people that can take out groups of enemies that cannot even see them while summoning fighters to stand in front and take damage. Why would the Mage want in on that? That makes no sense. Fighters get kills? Great, you killed a guy whose only action was to stand there and dribble on himself, because the Mage/Thief got there first.
Thieves, however, combine great with Mages, who always appreciate yet another method of damage dealing - snares, making targets completely helpless before them - time traps, yet another method of being undetectable - stealth, yet another method of leveraging invisibility - backstab, and yet another method of debuffing opponents that try to avoid their spells - detect illusions.
The Mage/Thief dominates at all levels with save or X, can bolster those save or sucks with raw damage if they want - 84 average damage to a group with a single charge from a wand of fire, available from: Your first wand of fire.
And currently? Due to an engine bug their APR is permanently set to 5 using MMM and 10 using Energy Blades. The Mage/Thief attacks more often with the Ravager +6 than you do.
tl;dr? Screw your petty mortal concerns, the Mage/Thief just brain wiped you, Mislead backstabbed your entire party while being an untouchable immortal godspawn, and is now using you as a footstool.
As your other questions? While you and your particular scenario might have problems, if I were running a Fighter looking to dual, then yes, I'd just run with another thief. Thief skills aren't why I'd be running a Fighter>Swashbuckler, though I'd happily ditch thief #2 as they came online, rather it's all about having a top tier melee monkey for most of chapter 2 onwards (not kidding about how hard I optimise my Exp gains).
And if I do have two thieves keeping each other company? Awesome, it can be Jan, no need for anyone else. They can team up, stealthing forever, stabbing together. A CHARNAME fighter can easily be 19 Strength coming in from BG1, though Jan has no need for such junk, he can handle tanking duty and grab magic boosting gear in preference to messing around with lowly peon gear.
Later on, after holding my hand through the tumultuous period of regaining my thief skills (during which time he supplies hundreds of thousands of Exp by scribing scrolls and effortlessly soloing things he's been holding back on to help make me feel important, like high level demiliches), Jan will be dishing out backstabs from Mislead while I stand around as a TWFing murdertank with -25 AC and 5 APR, and together we'll shred anything that comes until our bromance comes against a Lich (Jan's job) a dragon (I'll be tanking thanks to the the layers of debuffs and buffs that Jan used to help make me better at my job serving as his lowly peon... all while he considers whether or not to just mindwipe it in a single round), and while holding hands and skipping we'll lure things back into a small mountain of snares we made together, before gazing lovingly into one anothers' eyes and letting Jan get his backstab on. If you know what I mean. Unless it's a dragon or something else immune, in which case I'll just finish them off in regular melee.
So yeah, it's either that or use Imoen to trapfind through Irenicus' dungeon, then bypass trap heavy dungeons (good examples being Trademeet's druid grove, the Circus Tent and the early Windspear Hills, which are light on locks and traps while giving plenty of spank opportunity for a single class Kensai, while the Planar Sphere, for example, does have a few locks and traps, much of them can be bypassed without trouble and the entire place looted more thoroughly later for more Exp) before switching at 1.25e6 and then cashing in a bunch of quests to jump to level 8 or so and using the thief skills to cover heavy duty lock picking and trap clearing duty for another Exp jump. Solo clearing the Doors room in the Docks is probably enough to hit level 10 or 11, and then it's coattails for 660,000 Exp.
And for kill comparison?
Kensai 13 = 1.25e6 Exp of being the primary damage dealer without quest rewards. 8.8e5 Exp of being trapfinder with all the quest rewards cashed in (free hundreds of thousands of Exp). 5.9e6 Exp of being a striker with two grand masteries and +1/2 an APR. Kensai 9 = 2.5e5 Exp of being the primary damage dealer, 1.6e5 of being trapfinder with all quest rewards cashed in, 7.5e5 Experience of being a fighter that, occasional backstab aside, is at best "equal" to the Kensai 13. If each kill is a certain amount of experience, then unless you believe that dealing more damage, hitting more often, and hitting more frequently will not improve the kill count of the K13 then no, "by the end of the game" it will overall be getting a consistently higher proportion of kills and will have for approximately six million Exp's worth of murder.
Let's review Exp sources:
Before dualling I most certainly would not abuse going to the Windspear Hills and leaving without talking to the only living witness in order to trigger paladin attacks to produce massive amounts of Exp per group plus tons of Full Plates to sell in order to reach the dual point sooner. That would be wrong of me. Yes.
Circus Tent Mother: 3,000 Exp. Return Wellyn's Teddy: 20,500 Exp. Acorns!: 9,750 Exp. Get Lilarcor: 18,000 Exp. Each. Free the Coronet Slaves (You don't rescue these people from their plight early do you?): 5,000 Exp for the kids, 7500 for Hendak, 48,750 XP for watching Hendak win. - 61,250 Exp. Report the death of the Slavers to Hendak: 8,500 Exp + 38,000 Exp - 46,500 Exp
Talk to the Tanner: 23,250 Exp plus 45,000 XP Find a caretaker for Risa - 15,250 Exp. Give Xzar the Harper Bird - 35,500 Exp. Each.
Talk to Nalia about having cleared D'Arnisse keep: 45,500 Exp.
Return the Rift Device (stash it in a box until now): 47,250 Exp. Report on the Beholder Cult: 45,750 Exp. Each. Give Sarles the fake Illithium - 10,000 Exp. Recover the ring of Lathander - 16,500 Exp.
Thieves Guild - Step 1 Necklace of Talos: 49,500 Exp. Step 2: Have your party kill a mage for Edwin while you watch enviously: 29,000 Exp (1 kill) Step 3: Documents: 10,000 Exp. Step 4: Tell Maevar what Embarl said for 28,750 Exp. Supply proof for Rae'nal: 48,250 Exp.
Assuming you were an angel and did not kick out your four man party for ANY of that (and I did assume you already finished the Unseeing Eye quest rather than leaving people better equipped for killing beholders to handle that part and get Gaal's sweet 75,000 quest exp as well) and I didn't miss any where it was Exp Each, that's 274,000 Exp from quest rewards, meaning you're already over a quarter of the way there and are reasonably capable of contributing even at thief THAC0 while dual wielding (15 before weapon and strength is plenty enough to hit many SoA enemies, particularly with backstab), and that's before you grab another boatload of Exp by clearing all the locks and traps you've been saving up on, like the Door room.
And if you are just such a cheeky bugger of course, then you can immediately use those potions of master thievery you've been hording all game and steal every scroll in Waukeen's Promenade for another few hundred thousand exp even if you have to invite other mages along to provide some of it, meaning you can neatly bypass any real downtime and give your team a major leg up to compensate for the tiny delay in getting their quest rewards.
As for early game gear, honestly even in challenge games where I spend and steal nothing until I've earned 150,000 gold to save Imoen (not a typo) there's more than enough gear thrown at you that it's never really been a problem, so I'm not sure losing Pickpocket access until you naturally accrue PoMTs is a problem.
Haha, oh boy Pant. Did you just out-long-post me sir? It would be hard for me not to understand where you're coming from after all that. I will be terse with my response.
I do think, at times, there is some meandering off topic as if we begin talking about BG1 (this is a bg2 forum) and soloing the game. This was about a party setup and you mention solo a few times. Did you mean if the party stood back and watched him solo for fun? F/M/T is likely the clear choice in a solo game. However, the strongest thief is part of the most powerful party. Nomatter how strong that solod xp-hoarding multi gets, he won't be as strong as a well formed party. His defenses would be stripped and he would be slain in a duel. Also he will be lonelier, did you consider that? Not resting excessively was part of the OP but I am just fine with talking in terms of resting when you need to.
When I speak of fighter, I mean what it adds to the thief. Not a pure comparison of class vs class. I don't need the tanking skills of the mage element. I already have a tank. In a party situation, the F/M/T damage wise is indeed a slow bloomer. If tanking is your aim, I don't feel that qualifies as power. A variety of classes can handle tanking. It will be some time before you acquire powerful offensive magics outside of a solo environment. Offense is more important with the most powerful thief in terms of a party.
Finally the M/T. The M/T has low HP, low proficiency weapon levels, low attacks... so mislead is this character and it's x5 of what kind of disappointing damage? Even if you rested after every single fight and were constantly in a state of mislead, I don't think you'd catch up to the K/T in endgame kills. The K/T can hide, drink potions, use scrolls, and invis items. He gets plenty of backstabs so you have to make up the difference with much less damage and a few more backstabs. I tell you, I don't see that happening.
Otherwise, just about everything you say is quite right. You can do the things you say. Whether those tactics are stronger are not is the issue. We also disagree on XP mining. I feel it trivializes a game that already becomes too easy at the highest xp levels. I feel we just have to agree to disagree and much of that is subjective to our contrasting play styles.
I thought that was what you meant. It is true that multis can specialize in more weapons, I believe they even get a few more proficiencies end game. 18 vs 21 or so I think? I grandmaster 3 weapons, 1 pip in two handed style with 2 left over. I put them in hammer so I can slay the last 5 undead with the runehammer. How silly is the late placement of that weapon?
So you can call it an advantage of sorts that the multi cannot grandmaster, however three weapons means I can use all I want. Flail of the Ages goes to the tank, Crom takes the best str belt and means your backstabs will be weaker or whenever you take the flail off. I assume you'd want to WW with a two hander right? If I'm a solod F/M/T, what you say makes more sense as I can horde every last item. The most powerful thief doesn't siphon power from other members, thus reducing his actual damage by proxy.
Weapons in BG2 outnumber NPCs by like 20 to 1. "Siphoning power from other members" is exaggeration, I don't expect Edwin to use the Staff of the Ram or Imoen/Nalia to use anything other than Gesen/Tuigan/Tansheron/Staff of the Magi. The game provides you with more than enough useful weapons without having to steal from the selection pool of other NPCs. Also, Crom is definitely worth making depending on party composition.
I actually don't see it as a clear advantage because there's no reason why a K/T shouldn't these weapons if he really needs to, the point though is that saying that the K/T has a clear "+5 to hit and +6 to damage" advantage through a large chunk of SoA is simply inaccurate.
BTW, if you choose to get grandmastery in three weapons you're basically abandoning your THAC0 advantage over the F/T by not getting dual-wielding.
Yes, I did mean that the M/T is a big enough badass that the rest of their party just stands around and takes it easy. Played the ways I mentioned she's actually a pretty good team player. They don't really need many items that other characters need to function in melee (though it's always nice to have a CHARNAME who hoards all the stat bonuses and at least a few defensive items like the Ring of Gaxx), all those debuffs will make the enemies nice and harmless so your partymates can kill them more easily, especially if you're throwing a haste their way, and if you're standing in the middle taking the hits (while simultaneously dealing the aforementioned 40D8+80 damage) then your party is free to do what they do.
And yes, part of the reason I wasn't talking about the M/T previously is just that - Fighter adds to thief, it gives it things it needs to make things like backstab better, but still plays like a thief does because outside of using their thief skills the thief does all the same thing a fighter does, except worse.
Mage/Thief doesn't really play like a thief, so much as it plays like a mage who finds traps. A mage gets a lot of benefits from being a thief, but it's Mage that's supplying most of the muscle in that particular combination. The class behaves nothing like the others.
That said, if I had to pick one class that stands alone against a six vs one team? Probably the Mage/Thief. Mage/Cleric is a close second, but the thief's abilities in the context of
Offensively speaking, do note the F/M/T has access to wands and spells.
How much does a level 9 Kensai deal per hit? Assuming 20 Strength (+8), Grand Mastery (+5), and Kensai (+3) and Daystar (1D8+4) that's 24.5 damage per hit, say three and a half times a round (if you have Belm at level 9.
That's 87ish damage.
The F/M/T with the same Exp as a level 9 Kensai has 4th level spells, If they're in melee and people are hitting them, then with Fireshield they're dealing 6.5 damage per hit, every hit. Two attacks? They've dealt 13 damage. Four attacks? 26 damage - It's not huge, but it's free, the F/M/T doesn't actually have to do anything except exist for this to deal damage, and against certain opponents they're completely immune to damage while this is happening.
They can still attack while whatever else is going on. With the same gear as the Kensai, that's 8+2+4+1D8 - 18.5 damage per hit, twice. 37 damage.
So now we have a choice.
Group? Then use a wand of fire in laser mode. 6D6 damage, for two rounds (12D6 total). If the target saves, that's 10.5 average damage per round. How many enemies are there? If the number is six (a kill squad of Paladins), then that's 63 damage per round, just by walking around a little bit to hose over your enemies. And yes, you can cast another spell in round #2 while getting another 63 damage for free.
Single target? Wand of Lightning: 18D6 damage. Save for half for every 3D6. If they make all six saves, that's still 31.5 damage average.
Remember that frequently the target won't save, so the average you can expect is somewhere between the values I've given and double that.
And if the F/M/T goes debuffer, we have a helpless enemy who cannot avoid being hit. Guaranteed damage for the entire party all thanks to the F/M/T. How much extra damage does that give?
Wands are a pretty big deal in the early game, you get given one of each type in Irenicus' dungeon (which obviously you keep, sell, and then steal back for 50 charges each), and they're cheap as chips in stores too, enough to make the F/M/T competitive, damagewise, with the high strength grand mastered Kensai, who they're significantly more durable than (in your own words, "how much damage do you lose out on while running away to heal?"), and more than enough to put them ahead of the F/T multiclass who they deal the same damage as in melee, while getting wands on top.
Also, by tanking, do note that in addition to being able to stand in front of physical things like Giant Trolls while being immune to their damage (so go ahead and cast both Fireshields and deal them 13 damage per hit per enemy) I'm talking about tanking Mages, Liches, Demiliches, and Beholders to mean they can no sell anything they throw at them. Unless you're carrying a shield of Balduran (too cheesy for me), Beholders are death spewing abberations immune to backstab that... The F/M/T can slime up to and kill with impunity, one after the other, with zero risk of injury. Liches? Backstab immune, invisibility seeing badasses that.... The F/M/T can slime up to and kill with impunity. Demiliches? Spell Immunity Necromancy, Spell Immunity Abjuration, kill them with Daystar for free loot. Cowled Wizard? It doesn't really matter how much damage the kensai would deal to their stoneskins, while the F/M/T can just sit there eating whatever gets thrown at them while continuing to attack and hit them with wands for free exp and loot.
Being able to survive conflict with the enemy is frequently the difference between being able to kill that enemy and losing half your party as they Horrid Wilting you to the ground, and just like the Mage/Thief, the F/M/T can simply take them out solo while the rest of the party waits for them to run out of spells.
And oh dear, I've done it again. Do you mind if I respond in bullet points? Maybe I can be more concise with bullet points.
I fail to understand how is calculated the THACO for dual-classed, multi-classed characters. Any would care to enlight me?
"Best wins".
So Fighter who duals at level 10 (THAC0 11) becomes a thief.
At level 11, Thief regains fighter levels, and their THAC0 changes from Thief THAC0 to Fighter THAC0 11 and stays there.
At level 21, Thief THAC0 = 10, so the Fighter>Thief THAC0 becomes 10.
If they became a mage instead, it would stay at the old Fighter THAC0 of 11, because Mage THAC0 maxes out at 13.
So only if the new level will *reduce* THAC0 does it change. It's the same for Saving throws.
Multiclass is best wins as well, so a Fighter/Cleric 7/7 has a THAC0 equal to a level 7 Fighter (14).
If Fighter or Ranger is a component in the multiclass, they'll have the THAC0 of the Fighter/Ranger.
If no Fighter or Ranger, but Cleric, they'll have the THAC0 of the Cleric.
And if it's a Mage/Thief, they'll have the THAC0 according to their Thief level.
And they'll also gain proficiencies in the same hierarchy - Warriors > Priests > Rogues > Mages. So a Mage/Thief 4/4 will have 3 proficiencies (just like a level 4 pure class Thief), the fact that Mages also gain a proficiency pip is ignored.
Comments
I don't argue against the damage output of the Swashie. My point is, that by choosing him, you miss out on a gameplay element, that I consider being both very useful, and most importantly freakishly funny.
Felling big ugly Fire Giants one after another in a single strike, without them ever knowing what hit them=priceless. Just one of many examples.
1) Even with difficulty enhancement mods a lot of the most dangerous stuff in the game are not immune to crits.
2) As I already mentioned earlier when +damage buffs enter the picture, as is generally the case for non-solo runs, overall damage is skewed even further towards the setup which lands more hits, which in this case is the F/T. Even pre-HLAs, considering K/T downtime.
3) Crom with GWWs seems redundant on a PC. Can't you get to 25 strength on a non-caster with a strength belt and permanent +strength mods? It's been a while since I played a non-caster PC.
An F/T using GWW should be using a two-handed weapon.
4) I'm not sure why you're trying to make it seem like the K/T is the king of backstabs considering Mislead + Critical Strike/Whirlwind.
5) It gets even more interesting when items enter the picture. The Helm of Vhailor, for example, allows the F/T to create a simulacrum of himself. Interestingly, the Simulacrum gets to keep all the F/Ts innate abilities... including all HLAs.
2) Sort of false. Fighter/Thief gets 2 + 1/2 attack specialisation at 2.5e6 Exp, +1/2 APR for the gauntlets if you're hitting top floor of WK at that point. Kensai>Thief activates at 2.13e6 Exp, and gets 2 + 1 Attack Grand Mastery, which is immediately 5 APR with Belm. Your window for higher APR is very small - 1.25e6-2.13e6, and gets lower after HLAs, when the K>T can get 3.5 APR with the gauntlets.
3) There are only a few spells and effects that add strength, and to the best of my knowledge they're all cleric spells unless I'm missing an obvious one. Crom Faeyr, however, is one of the most damaging weapons in the game, including two handers, and saves pips on an extra proficiency (More important for a Swashie dual than a F/T, admittedly).
Crom Faeyr: +4 strength (vs 22 belt) 5-11 damage base +5 Electrical. Aka 14-20 damage. Avg 17.
Flail of Ages: 7-12 damage +10. Aka 17-22 damage. Avg 19 < Best GWW weapon.
Ravager +6: 7-16 + 3D6 poison (maybe) + Vorpal. < 10-34 damage if they fluff the save, Average 22 (or 11.5 if they save). Good vs. chaff from the vorpal. Add 1 if you have 2hS (and why wouldn't you?)
Carsomyr +6: 7-18. Lame overrated sword is lame and only useful for the Dispel. Avg 12.5.
Foebane +5: 7-13 +4, aka 11-17, 14 average, also recovers you around 40 HP, which is nice.
So yeah, you might want to GWW the Ravager, but FoA or Crom Faeyr is life. You could also just put FoA into your mainhand and offhand Crom with the GWW (sacrilege, I know) giving you 8 attacks of 23 average, and 2 attacks of 17 average, or the same thing with Foebane for 8 of 18, 2 of 17, and heal for 32.
4) Do note that Kensai and Swashbuckler bonus damage multiplies with backstab damage (this doesn't come up much for the swashbuckler unless you're multiclassed).
This means that the K>T backstab with Mislead + iHaste using Kai + Hindo's Doom and Belm means:
14 max'd Kai Hindo's Doom damage + 5 G.Mastery + 4 Kensai. All of this is multiplied, giving 23 x 5 = 115 damage per hit, 1150 damage in a round, before Strength (another +100) for 1250 damage.
Meanwhile GWW'd SotR, assuming it doesn't knockback and waste APR, gives 15.5 average damage per hit, +2 W.Spec = 17.5 x 5 = 87.5 damage per hit, 875 damage in a round, before strength and piercing bonus (125) for 1100 total.
6 APR from iHasted Critical Strike against a non-crit immune enemy pulls ahead, but only by around 50 points or so and only if they're not wearing a helmet.
And on general backstabbing, a K>T with something lame like the Spectral Brand gets 15-22 damage for their backstab if they put G.Mastery into Scimitars. That's 18.5 average damage (92.5), which is still more than the F/T gets from Staff of the Ram backstab.
5) Two K>Ts using Assassination for 4 hits of 92.5 each is pretty interesting, though the simulacrum doesn't really last long enough, or get refreshed frequently enough, to really make use of more than one or two HLAs or spells.
Not sure where you're going with the "Sort of False" comment. Are you saying the K/T is "probably" going to land more hits than the F/T?
3) Strength belts? Potions? The machine of Lum the mad/Deck of Many Things? Tomes?
4) I thought offhand weapons can't backstab.
5) If you think that's interesting, you should see what an F/T can pull off with it.
3: Lums and Tomes with a Half-Orc Evil F/T starting with 19 plus Hell Trials gives 23 Strength, possibly 24 strength if the DoMT gives Strength instead of Dexterity (which for some reason it prefers to do for my thieves).
Outside of this singular and exceptional individual with 23-24 strength, however, these bonuses do not stack with belts, the best of which *sets* Strength to 22, or potions, which *sets* it to 24.
4: Hm, not sure either way, to be honest, but it's actually a fluff on my part either way, since that should have been x8 + x2 Belm, which is only 1000 damage without Belm (1040 assuming it can't backstab as an offhand). It is worth noting, however, that because Kai lasts two rounds, they can get two rounds of maxstabs compared to one GWW or CS.
Not that it really matters, considering how few things will survive the damage dealt by either character at the best of times.
5: I'm fascinated as to your input. You might try having a mage standing by with iHaste, and having the Simulacrum set up with a scroll of Mislead for 8 Critical Strike Mislead backstabs, but generally I'd have thought that a twenty second duration rather put a damper on meaningfully improving upon a few rounds of backstabbing.
Pre-HLAs the thing is that you do get Kundane/Belm very easily and while the K/T is busy trying to gain his fighter levels back the F/T is just walking around fighting stuff for 2 extra attacks per round.
The amount of extra hits is going to accumulate.
3) Meh. I guess that leaves the Wish spell for 25 to all stats, though its random and you'll probably save that for boss fights.
5) Actually I was thinking something more along the lines of just facetanking an enemy mob with your Simulacrum stacking damage reductions and just spamming HLAs. Short, sweet, simple. You could try more interesting setups I suppose.
Point is, the Simulacrum clone opens up a lot of options for the F/T. You use Smite to completely disable a caster with your clone as your PC CS/GWWs him to death, for example.
For that first 33% of the game the kensai is undoubtedly doing far superior damage with both thaco damage and attack advantages over the multi.
For the 2nd third of the game you are going through spellhold and emerging from the underdark. You will eventually get your UAI and have GM in dagger staff and at 28 two handed sword. You are still ahead in damage and thaco but attacks per round are even. Advantage still goes to the kensai.
For the last third of the game - watcher's keep and the expansion + elven city you'll see a discussion form around the strength of WW vs the extra damage. Each can use all the scrolls/potions they want - so really we need to focus on the differences. WW vs 6 damage
In an action starved environment where you are annihilating the screen of enemies in a few rounds (even in nightmare mode which is all i play) - you'll see the whirlwind not being as impactful as might be assumed. HOWEVER - even if we were to give the nod to the multiclass at this point - you've spent two thirds of bg2 and tob being objectively weaker.
And as far as strength buffs go. You'll want to give your thieves the 22 str belt eventually with the ring from your cleric for 23 strength. There are a few 24 str potions but better to use those on your archer with whirlwind and the erinne sling +5 with +4 bullets. Yep
3: Ugh, yeah, and it's only four rounds from the Wish option, right? At least it's only +1/+2 for the extra point of strength over the half-orc, can't imagine trying to get Wish to cooperate would be any fun.
5: Ah, fair enough. I suppose I'd have just considered using the simulacrum to layer up a quick batch of epic snares before going in for assassination, or carrying a scroll of Projected Image (I have honestly no idea how that would work with a caster that's about to disappear).
I see a lot of talk of dual wield but have you, my friends, really looked at the power and utility of a dagger that does 2d4+2 + str bonus + the extra attack? It's like throwing a +2 bastard sword with +1 attack. Kensai needs this safety and profits greatly with his +6 damage on the extra attack. Kensai can't normally even use a ranged weapon, but this weapon skirts the rule. Also, you get this silly thing near the beginning of the game!
When you get UAI and grandmaster two handed sword with liberal access to IH, things work out so beautifully as you can wear armor and weather melee combat more easily. Also, the range the two handed sword offers safety still yet. Wielding one handed weapons is a one way ticket to the danger zone. Many enemies will peel off onto you. You will get hit, you will run. Lost attacks. Is that included in the math? Also, the two handed style proficiency is more appealing and cost effective vs two weapon style. I only needed 1 pip in two handed style as a kensai to have Carsamyr at 0 weapon speed.
I love the theory crafting of this complex and colorful game. There are certainly things I miss. These are great debates, however, I feel there are a couple missing elements to the kensai vs multi counter points. So far my experience has me leaning, not only towards this class, but this very setup for the most powerful thief.
I suppose part of it is a question of playstyle. If you, like me, have a habit of double billing experience rewards and inviting every mage you meet on quiet study dates, then 3e6 Exp becomes less "last third of the game" and more "Okay, time to move onto Chapter 3", so late bloomers become a lot more entertaining.
Concerning multiclass, do note that they never "fall off hard" in the early game, completely the opposite, a Multiclass Fighter/Thief is 1 THAC0 behind the Fighter up to level 10, with an x4 backstab handshake based off Fighter THAC0, full plate and full thieving progression. In the parts of the game where you're weak, multiclasses are strong. It's only later, "last third" when duals replenish that multiclasses start to slow down.
Concerning weapon speed: Meh. It means you hit moderately sooner in the round. That's it, you don't hit more often, you don't deal more damage, you hit earlier. This is completely incidental 90% of the time, and if we're being honest, the thief can supply proficiency pips for Single Weapon Style and Two Weapon Style without so much as a hiccup while they're waiting to regain their levels.
Incidentally, in regards to Fighter 13>Swashbuckler for part of that, then I'll just quickly review:
- Swashbucklers do not need stealth. They can always be wearing full plate armour as soon as their multi kicks in, they are not squishy.
- Swashbucklers have the best AC in the game, bar none. By the time you grab your one handed weapon and step into the danger zone (which is a rather curious notion considering how briefly things tend to survive melee once you're outputting that much damage in a round with any class), nobody that's not a mage is going to out tank you:
RoEC +1
Gaxx +2
Cloak +1
Helm of Balduran +1
21 Dexterity (18, Lum's, Tome, DoMT) +5
-11 AC.
Swashbuckling (level 15 2.5e6 Exp) -4
That's -15 AC in SoA right after you regain your class levels, -19 with a mage to supply Improved Invisibility. The majority of enemies in SoA haven't got a negative THAC0, so the majority only hit on a crit even before you finish going through Watchers Keep, and you haven't even picked up a shield yet (meaning you'd "only" have 3 APR with +3 damage per hit swashie bonus when you're not using whirlwind). With the Saving Grace, your AC drops to -23, Firkraag without debuffs or any other buffs has a -12 THAC0, so he has a less than 50% chance of hitting you, your average Balor hits on a crit (except that Firkraag doesn't deal blunt damage, so he's actually at a major penalty to hit you, particularly if you swap belts).
If you start including other buffs and a potion of mind focusing for tough battles (-1), PfE10' (-2), Defensive Harmony (-2), that's -28 AC, lower against slashing and piercing, and Firkraag needs a critical hit to hit you.
When you hit ToB, you get Bard Gloves -1 AC, the Darksteel Shield (another -1) , upgrade to White Dragon Scale (-2) and your swashbuckler bonus drops to -6, so your AC is an effective -33 (plus particular damage type bonuses) while buffed, holding Crom Faeyr, and Whirlwinding, -19 when you're dual wielding with no shield or buffs, and you can now use scrolls of Blur to give another -3 to hit penalty against anything stupid enough to target you.
tl;dr: The level after Swashbucklers get UAI they can hit an effective -36 AC and keeps getting better. They can single wield if they like.
Because single handed weapons
- Generally I stuck to a single weapon to make comparisons easier as much as because you're dealing literally double the damage as you get with a two handed weapon, but just as with the boomerang dagger it's also worth noting is that Swashbucklers make surprisingly good Archers if you're into that (and are willing to make the proficiency investment), getting 3 APR with the Sling of Everard and stockpiling the created +4 Sling Bullets from the other sling gives them 1D4+5 damage bullets that hurt everything, gain strength and Buckling bonus, and the SoE+5 is available pretty early on. Or just hold out for Firetooth, since even with just proficiency you get 5 APR with Big Metal Ammo plus Swash.
Ooo, and since I just noticed F/M/T was on the table for discussion, I'll cover those in a bit.
@Dukinson
It gets even better with the Firetooth Dagger. Btw, if you *really* want to, you can actually have your K/T using Slings, Darts and Bows. You can acquire pips once you have dualed, just need to wait for UAI for the actual weapons to be useable.
The reason why I prefer TWF over 2H is
a) 2H Swords don't qualify as Backstab weapon. Only Quarterstaffs do. But they aren't Swords, and the only good one for a long time is one that works with charges. I don't like charge items.
b) You cannot get up to 10APR if you want to
c) 2 weapons allow for a wider range of beneficial status effects that come from wielding enchanted weapons.
For example wearing Adjatha and the Dragonslayer to have a Mind Shield+Fear Immunity and Regen.
d) RP-reasons, I like to play somewhat lorefriendly. Kensai are quick and nimble fighters. 2-Handed Swords are too brutish to fit into the picture. So only Longswords, Short Swords, Katanas and Daggers for me.
F/M/Ts, however, are much more readily comparable, since they tend towards self buffing melee.
BG1:
Pure Fighter BG1 cap: Level 8. (+2 Kensai)
Fighter/Thief: 7/7
Fighter/Mage/Thief: 6/6/7.
That's a 1/2 APR and 1 THAC0 off Fighter/Thief, and 1 APR, 4 THAC0 off a full Fighter (6 for Kensai), in exchange for level 3 spells, and the F/M/T is just as good a thief as the multiclass, and infinitely better than the Fighter.
Assuming they have the DUHM Dreamnate and grab the tome they can put points into Disarm, Lockpick and Set Snare to 70/90/70 to get max Disarm, which with your DUHM innate gives 80/100/80 at this point, letting you clear the majority of locks (Knock spell for the rest) and all traps while the majority of snares lay successfully.
Level 3 spells means things like two Mirror Images a day (ignore AOE damage, gain huge amounts of durability), Ghost Armour (Fullplate when you probably can't get full plate), spell interrupting Magic Missiles, and they've been dominating most of BG1 with Sleep, plus they have a free scout (kitty!) for bonus HP to cover another significant thieving roll (and no, multiclasses do not take a long time to level up early on). And that's if you don't want to get into the crowd control/team support game with web (amazing), haste (as good as your party is), and spook (a lot of BG1 enemies will fail a -3 penalty spell save, and it keeps getting better up to -6).
Early SoA: 1e6.
Pure Fighter: Level 12. (+4 Kensai)
Fighter/Thief: Level 10/12.
Fighter/Mage/Thief: 9/10/11.
F/M/T is now tied with the Fighter/Thief in APR, 1/2 behind the Fighter, and has level 4 and 5 spells. By around this point, both multis have enough thieving mojo to have Detect Illusions and some stealth boosts as well.
Level 4 spells means Polymorph Self - total immunity to Pit Fiends, Liches, mages, electricity, guys stupid enough to wield shortswords, daggers or spears, beholders, gauth... And if the bug with the spell gets fixed, also Vampire level drain and schlubs with non-magical weapons. In short, it's pretty much the most powerful tanking spell in the game in terms of "people you can now ignore". Lesser Sequencer can also regain their original weapons if you don't mind cheese (lesser cheese than mislead in any case), you can easily use Poly.Self to become a 5 APR Gatling Spider, throwing 5 sling bullets or Dawnstar strikes per round at this point.
It also means Fire Shields and Stoneskins, so you can supplement your damage with fire or cold damage every time someone wastes energy hitting you for 0 damage. Note, every time *they* hit you, so if you're surrounded later on, that's actually better for you, since they'll all be taking damage while you hide behind PfMW for four rounds.
Level 5 spells means Spell Immunity - Aka tank Kangaxx and win, instantly cast it any other time (since it bypasses your aura) someone casts a spell you really need to avoid killing you, Cloudkill (slaughter groups of trolls, lock down mages), Feeblemind (It's a level 5 Finger of Death spell which approximately five enemies in the game are immune to), and, of course, Breach. Breach and Lower Resistance are game defining options because Mages are game defining fights all by themselves.
2/3 Soa: 2e6.
Dualled Fighter: Level 13 Thief. - They've sucked for the last 750,000 Exp.
Fighter/Thief: 12/14.
F/M/T: 10/11/13.
This is the "awkward teens". though just picked up their x5 Backstab, F/M/Ts are 250,000 Exp away from level 6 spells (PfMW, iHaste, and, of course, Mislead), F/Ts are 500,000 Exp away from their extra 1/2 APR, and the Dual is 130k away from being a Kensai again. Once the F/M/T hits level 6, they'll be able to dominate one fight per day thanks to their baked in buffs, while generally being the sturdiest out of the three for the rest of the day, which generally works out better than the 1/2 APR of the F/T, but they'll sacrifice some damage compared to the K>T dual, whose +7 effective damage and +1 APR is hard to compete with (though with spells you can come pretty close).
On the plus side, this is around the point where every single one of them has enough skill points to do whatever decently well.
3/3 SoA: 3e6.
Dualled Fighter: Is now 13>17. The Kensai has 3 APR +4 hit/damage +3 G.Mastery vs. Specialisation, the >Swashbuckler has come into +3 hit/damage, +4 AC putting them at 4 and 5 effective THAC0 respectively.
Fighter/Thief: 14/16, 1 HLA. 7 THAC0, 2.5 APR.
F/M/T: 12/12/14, 1 HLA. 9 THAC0, 2 APR, level 6 spells.
Here's where how valuable your party contribution is depends strongly on what's available to you. A self-buffing F/M/T has 4 spells per day of everything up to level 6, and is 300,000 Exp away from 5/5/5/4/4/2. Having buffs "baked in" rather than wasting actions and slots that your party mages could be dominating combats with is also a pretty big bonus, but for the first time the F/M/T has competition. Wand-use, which before this meant -4 Save or stuns, Cloudkills on demand, 12D6 scorchers and 18D6 lightning bolts, and scroll use, which meant Misleads whenever you found a scroll, is now in the hands of the F/T as well, just in time for ToB.
1/3 ToB: 4.5e6
Dual: 13>25. 2 HLAs. K>T hasn't changed, except they now get armour. Welcome to the party, guys. F>S now has +5 damage, 3 THAC0, and -6 AC compared to -2.
F/T: 17/20. 4 THAC0, 8 HLAs. F/T can now bust out Critical Strikes, GWWs and generally go around being a jerk. Jerks.
F/M/T: 14/14/16. 7 THAC0, 7 HLAs, and finally up to 2.5 APR like the F/T when they're not breaking the rules by turning into a flaming poisonous invincible sword spider with a bastard sword, the F/M/T now has a level 7 spell, and since GWW is for Billy No Mage, they have sensibly been spending two of their HLAs on getting EVEN MORE SPELLS, giving them two level 7 spells and three level 6 spells. Asides from being able to create invincible swords to tank for them, wish they could have more stoneskins (and finally being listened to, for a change), and casting Project Image to lay every single one of their HLA traps for free, plus one of the other two things I just mentioned before their image puts on both types of fireshield, stoneskins, mirror images, Spell Immunity: Divination and marches to their deaths as a sacrificial tank for the rest of the party.
2/3 ToB: 6e6
Dual: 13>31. 8 HLAs. Swash now has +6 damage, 2 THAC0, and -7 AC.
F/T: 20/23. 1 THAC0 and 14 HLAs, still swimming in Fighter HLAs and hoping they don't run out of scrolls of mislead.
F/M/T: 16/15/19. 5 THAC0 and 13 HLAs, Still short of level 8 spells (6.5e6), and level 15 mage being almost a dead level, the lowly F/M/T still only has 5/5/5/5/5/3/2 spells, or "30 spells per day", presumably including something like three misleads for four effective Assassinations per day, three of which involve GWW.
3/3 ToB: 7.5e6
Dual: 13>38. Swash peaked awhile back at +7/+7/-8 and 1 THAC0, and they now have 15 HLAs.
F/T: 23/27. Capped 0 THAC0, 21 HLAs. They could probably burn a few GWWs every combat and have spare by the end of the day.
F/M/T: 18/16/21. F/M/Ts still have two levels in them before the cap, but by this point, it's just two more HLAs (18 at this point), so meh. They've peaked at 3 THAC0, level 8 spells (two of 'em) for things like Spell Trigger (target must Save vs. Spells three times in a row at -2 or become a vegetable, assuming you forgot the G.Malaison), Simulacrum (eat your heart out Vhailor's, these last for 16 rounds, or over a minute and a half, and have their own spells up to around level 4 or so for Stoneskins+Mirror Images), and they now have a fourth level 7 spell.
While they may not deal the most damage per hit at any particular level, or have the lowest THAC0, or the lowest AC, the F/M/T has a grab bag of immunities and perks at all levels thanks to spellcasting that make it a very strong contender in general, the ability to use Scrolls and Wands early on, when they matter most, and in a party without a handy buffing mage (and let's face it, Edwin may prefer not wasting his spells on you lowly monkeys) they can produce effects that neither of the others can attain, and even with another mage, all the best mage buffs are self-only, giving them bonuses the others can't attain without burning through a strictly limited resource of scrolls,
Before recovering its Kensai levels: Significantly worse performance as both a fighter and a thief.
After recovering its Kensai levels: Slightly better performance as a fighter.
Before 3 million XP: The Kensai/Thief can't use a fighter's armor, helms, or shields.
After 3 million XP: The Kensai/Thief can't use fighter HLAs, and gets fewer HLAs in general.
500,000 Exp
Kensai has +5 Thaco more than the F/T
Kensai has +6 Damage more than the F/T
Kensai has 1/2 Extra Attack more than the F/T
1,000,000 Exp
Kensai has +4 Thaco more than the F/T
Kensai has +6 Damage more than the F/T
Kensai has 1/2 Extra Attack more than the F/T
2,000,000 Exp
Kensai has +2 Thaco more than the F/T
Kensai has +6 Damage more than the F/T
Kensai has 1/2 Extra Attack more than the F/T
3,000,000 Exp
Kensai has +2 Thaco more than the F/T
Kensai has +6 Damage more than the F/T
4,000,000 Exp
Kensai has +6 Damage more than the F/T
5,000,000 Exp
F/T has +2 Thaco more than the Kensai
Kensai has +6 Damage more than the F/T
6,000,000 Exp
F/T has +4 Thaco more than the Kensai
Kensai has +6 Damage more than the F/T
-----------------------------------------------------
As you can see throughout the vast majority of the game the Kensai->Thief significantly outperforms the F/T in {damage}. Even at high exp values in ToB the only argument is that whirlwinds and higher thaco will overwhelm the 6 damage bonus (and this may very well be true).
Defensively the F/T is far above the Kensai (saves, armor, helm) with the kensai only being ahead on hit points in this evaluation.
It is ultimately subjective what you choose to value in your campaign but we should not misunderstand the significant damage contribution difference between these two classes. The Kensai does shockingly more damage than the F/T through most of the game and at least for me this has resulted in faster playthroughs and a stronger overall party.
@semiticgod kensai->thief is stronger as a fighter up until 250k and weaker as a thief. Then he is weaker as thief and fighter for 160k experience until he his 410k in the slums. From 410k until most of the game is over he is a much stronger fighter offensively until multiple whirlwinds come into play in TOB.
I've seen a few people mention the recovery window as such a huge counterpoint to kensai->thief when in actual play reality it is such a tiny period I don't even miss any traps or locks before it is regained.
I feel like I'm repeating some fairly obvious stuff and I'm probably running the risk of being annoying so I'll just wrap up with saying in the end what you choose to value is going to be different from other people based on your preferred play style and comfort. For me I like the Kensai7->Thief even though it is weaker, just because I hate using imoen in the starting dungeon and hate waiting on the (albeit small) period where kensai9 comes back online.
Ribbit
@Tredvolt
Sure, if all your K/T and F/T ever do is use just one weapon type through most of SoA then those damage THAC0/damage values are constant. I'm guessing not, though.
And I don't really mind having slightly less THAC0/damage in SoA (because relatively speaking, that's what it amounts to when people are using strength belts/powerful enchanted weapons and a fireball wand can still clear a room). Granted, if you like exploring the bottom of WK or challenging things like dragons early on then the THAC0/damage bonus is obviously significant.
But I would certainly mind it though if I'm in late SoA/ToB and one of my melee guys can't use Critical Strike/whirlwinds, especially if I already have a shortage of characters with access to warrior HLAs.
It's simply not acceptable.
BTW, I'm not sure why it's taking so long for you guys to get your HLAs. You should start getting them by the later part of Underdark (after having finished most of the quests), unless you've taken a vow of only getting XP from kills/quests I suppose.
BG2 usually starts off slow, which is why downtime at the beginning is actually a thing. Once you've killed enough enemies/finished enough quests though then things just start to snowball and regardless of whether you have a K/T in your party or not, your party is going to rampage through everything because you'll have more gold than you know what to do with (even after going on gear/scroll shopping spree) and everyone should be equipped with potential end-game gear.
That's usually how things go in my games.
Are you sure you belong in a "thief" thread?
You can use another ranged weapon but you cannot go beyond one proficiency so you would never do it. Going staves and two handed swords means only 1 proficiency in a weapon style. It goes without saying but I'll say it, staves are the most powerful backstab weapon. That's what we're after here. I REALLY wanted TWS to work but it just doesn't. It's closer, more difficult to position, more dangerous, and annoying to swap out the offhand for the staff.
I do like the magical bonuses of using two weapons but the weapons are about damage and I'll sacrifice a minor bonus or two for more power. Getting to 10 attacks is nice but the OH attacks will be weak or unproficient (dagger you get to 8 ranged, IH) and it's not crucial if the sacrifices are too great. For the kensai, they indeed too great. Now an armor wearing thief variant might pull it off but I've gone over it again and again and I just can't seem to justify it over the dagger/staff/two handed sword setup. Two weapons works well on paper but not in a pragmatic sense. Could a kensai drink a lot of defensive potions and dual wield? Perhaps but there aren't enough potions early on to be armored 100% of the time. Even so while armored up, the tank will always be better at soaking damage and the most powerful thief should focus on dealing damage. Late game no armor level the K/T could reach would save you from the peril or TWS range. Remember, we're playing on NM mode. It's very dangerous. The range of daggers and two handed weapons wins out. Even a multi F/T will have trouble tanking hits w/o a shield and late game. I know because I did this two runs ago. Swash could be the only one... the only thief who could pull off dual wielding in NM mode. An intriguing class but I'll get to that in a minute.
If what you choose is for RP reasons, I understand but this is about the most powerful thief. If I, as a thief, must explode people with a two handed sword... so be it! Most of the game you throw daggers anyways. Usually following a backstab from an early acquired SoS or SoR. My friend commented on a Naruto style comparison (thiefy?). Only in the end of the underdark do I unleash the Carsomyr from the bag. I've tried two handers before that and it's just worse over the range and attacks of the throwing dagger.
@Pantalion & @Nuin
I realize weapon speed isn't the largest factor but it is one. These are points that add up. However, the weapon speed wasn't my main point. The point was I only needed one proficiency in two handed style. That's it. If you're dual wielding you need 3 pips and 1 or 2 for THS to do SoS and SotR backstabs as well as Carsomyr WWs. This is why this path is so great, at least for the kensai. Multi's can't grandmaster so they have the proficiencies to throw around.
@Pantalion
We don't do any scroll shenanigans or any other xp boosting we don't have to. Haha, "double billing", goodness. We also don't do quests that lead to items we don't need. That, ofcourse, is a subjective choice. The game already takes some time to beat so we try not to drag it out with long, inane quests. Otherwise those "late bloomers" would come online sooner. If you did everything you could to milk xp, you would indeed made a better case. Infact, this point may be the best point I've heard for the multi F/T or F/M/T so far. Just do every quest and kill everything you can. The M/T I consider to be not so great (it's a thief variant and ok to debate). I can't imagine the tremendous loss of fighter powers being worth higher mage and thief levels. If a K/T and a M/T were in the same party there would be no question in my mind. At the end of the game the K/T would have far more kills.
Btw, shapechanging and dispelling your weapons, I don't believe that was an intended dynamic so I consider it unfair.
Swash. Oh the almost awesome swash! This is the one kit that made me come the conclusion dualing into kits was unfair. Grand mastery with WW, +8 ac and +7 dmg/thaco was it? Ya that's over the top. I might try it once to see just how broken it is. The only legit way to play swash is dual FROM swash at 10 to fighter but this takes a lot longer and I don't think it's stronger than the K/T with the loss of backstabs and thief skills.
I'd also like to address this dualing at 13. So, who's your early game thief? Who disarms your traps while you go through a third of the game waiting to even begin building your thief skills. 2130000 xp to come fully back online. This seems like madness to me and I've been itching to ask you this for some time. Do you not pick pockets early on when you really need the gold? Do you have two thieves? Which thief gets the strength belt? Who gets the best items? Who did you make weaker so you could make this character stronger? Do you bring in a temp thief and share xp with another party member, slowing down progression? A dualed to 13 thief might be stronger eventually... but the party sure won't be. Even dualing at 9 takes some gymnastics. This seems like the limit dualing can be taken realistically. Sure you can do it later but what is lost is simply greater than what is gained over "the course of the game". A dualed 13K/T vs a 9K/T will absolutely have less kills at the end of the game and hurt the party. Period. If you can convince me otherwise, you should apply for Kissinger's old job. The most powerful thief isn't the thief with the flashiest character sheet at the end of the game, it's the one who contributed the most throughout the game while taking the least. This insures power wasn't taken or siphoned (thus truly decreasing damage) from other party members.
@Nuin
You say "Sure, if all your K/T and F/T ever do is use just one weapon type through most of SoA then those damage THAC0/damage values are constant. I'm guessing not, though." What did you mean here? Does the Kensai bonus stop working with certain weapons? No, you didn't mean that. Perhaps you meant there are weapons that are better the K/T is not using? Well the K/T would use them if there were better weapons so that's level ground. Whatever belts or other enchanted gear are available, you can assume the K/T would use those items as well.
--------
Phew... I think I responded to everyone and I'll close on this. Tredvolts damage lead chart was the best cut and dry proof of power by the K/T. In order to pass the K/T simply on the character sheet you basically have to close in on beating the game. You still have 2 HLA more powerful than WW to pick! UAI and asssasinate. That's level 26 at 3.52mil before you can even get your first WW to look upon.
I have played the multi F/T and simply performed worse against this monster. I had less kills and not by a little. Eventually you get 21 WWs as the multi F/T but it's too little too late. There are times where a scroll, potion, item, or some other action is the smart move and it does hurt a little to use them over a WW for that round. So in those moments the kensai again takes the lead. Both have assassinate so that's one action on level ground and superior to a WW. Lastly, the K/T had liberal access to IH (6-8 attacks +6dmg each) in this campaign. Even in the expansion it's not all glory to the multi F/T and his bucket of WWs. If you haven't tried my recommended setup for K/T, I would invite you to indeed try it. Come back and tell me it isn't more powerful than the multi F/T or anything else for that matter once you have. I would be surprised if you did.
So what happens when you dual-wield Belm and Kundane? What happens if you want to use the Mace of Disruption/Daystar/Azure Edge against the undead? Crom Faeyr? The Flail of Aegis? The Equalizer (+6 damage against chaotic evil, which is a lot of stuff, and applies to both weapons if dual-wielding)? And you obviously have to make room for staffs for backstabbing.
I could go on.
So unless you only stick to using a few weapon types throughout the game, then the bonuses he mentions are actually lower.
At this point I think no one is disputing that the K/T i better than the F/T given your setup, but the issue is that you played the "most powerful thief" card. That's bound to attract all kinds of interesting topics heh.
However, in most versions of the game, it's possible for a dual-class fighter to put more than two pips in any weapon even after dualing from fighter. A Kensai/Thief could therefore get Grandmastery in multiple weapon types. But it would have very few pips with which to do so. Getting Grandmastery in two weapons takes as many pips as attaining specialization in five weapons--it's kind of a lot.
But now we're talking mage versus fighter, are we?
The Mage/Thief without Fighter levels. Remember I'm talking Gnomes, because Gnomes are the master race.
Starting out: Sleep.
The Mage/Thief just killed four people. It doesn't matter who slits their throats, that's just book keeping. The fight was won when the Mage cast one spell, took 80% of the enemies out of the fight, and allowed the rest of the party to focus fire the final remaining enemy to death.
TotSC Cap: 7/8.
The M/T has 5/4/3/2 spells.
I won't bother doing this for every level, but here's a few uses for those spells in a few major encounters per workday in BG1.
Fight #1: They backstab the enemy mage, cast invisibility, then backstab the enemy mage again before retreating back to where they laid three snares, Ravaging the rest of the group.
Fight #2: They drop a web (save -2), paralysing half of the enemy force at a time, meaning the entire party takes less damage while taking down helpless victims with a bow, disrupting any free mages that try to cast with a magic missile or two.
Fight #3: They cast Resist Fear on the party, rendering the attempted horror spell pointless, before casting Glitterdust to blind half the enemy party, turning them into harmless mooks for four rounds while the party cleans up the remainder.
Fight #4: No nonsense Fireball to the face for the enemy party, then once more for luck to account for 56 damage to each. Go mop up for me, lowly peons.
Fight #5: They drop a web (save -2), a Greater Malaison (web save -6), turn into a spider for 4 APR and walk amongst the helpless targets and devour the lot.
Well, I still have spells left, but nap time? Okay, Invisibility 10' Radius. Everyone get some shuteye, and rest assured that you're completely immune to bedbugs.
Fight #6: Oh, ambushed by Ankhegs? Oh fine, I still had a spell slot spare. Sleep. Ankheg fight won. It's a good thing too, I almost forgot to cast Melf's Minute Meteors to get a handful of death rocks for tearing through stoneskins, mirror images and people in general.
Good morning world! Oh no! Five mages just appeared! Best turn into a Mustard Jelly, sludge on over and then shoot myself over and over with Wand of Fire charges while the rest of the party waits in perfect safety.
A mage generally cares very little about THAC0, AC or damage per hit, because a mage simply isn't playing the same game as anyone else. Mages mostly care about saving throws, particularly other peoples', and making them fail them.
But sure, Mage wants to go into melee today? Fine, keep the bow. Let's go with Fire Shield Red, Mirror Images x3, Stoneskins. 1D8+2 damage every time an enemy hits you, no MR, and whoever fails their save at -4 from the wand of paralysation gets to eat 2 APR bow damage at 3D6 damage acid arrows while they tank the rest of the enemy. By the time their four buff spells are done, that's 78 average damage dealt to whichever unfortunate saps tried removing it.
SoA 1/3: 11/12.
The M/T has 5/5/5/4/4 spells.
They can now solo Kangaxx and every single lich in the game. In fact, they could kill four liches per day at pretty much zero risk without a ring of wizardry.
They can now take out cowled wizard patrols solo.
They have now enough slots to regularly sequencer away their Poly.Self spider weapons to get 5 APR with any weapon that a thief can use, all while still using the exact same Web combo to disable everyone and summoning even more spiders to do their dirty work for them.
They can now waste spells buffing the party's lowly peons with haste. When the Mage casts haste, who's providing the extra damage per round? Is it the fighter, or is it the mage?
They can now cast Fire Shield Red, Blue, Stoneskins and Mirror Images. To get through their five images and five stonskins is 20D8+20 damage, no save.
They can kill groups of trolls, umber hulks, ankhegs, and so forth with Cloudkill spells they cast themselves, assuming they can't find a wand.
They can now breach enemy mages of their annoying protections.
They can combine Greater Malaison with Feeblemind for a -6 save penalty. 20% of level 10 fighters will make that save, the rest are now braindead, and can be murdered by the Mage/Thief's familiar, because they are dead.
When they aren't taking out groups with web, they can use Chaos instead, a -4 save penalty (-8 with Greater Malaison) where their victims either stand around helplessly while the M/T shoots them to death with a bow, attack each other (Damage Mitigation for your party AND damage to your enemy that the M/T provided), or wander around aimlessly.
SoA 2/3: 12/14
The M/T has 5/5/5/5/5/2 spells.
Forget what I said last post about awkward teens, M/Ts now have mislead, can attack 3 times per round with Belm, and has an x5 backstab. They also have Improved Haste, if they feel like dealing 20 hits worth of damage per combat round for a single combat, rather than ten hits worth of damage per combat round for two combats.
And yes, they still have a huge number of other spells to make sure that they cannot be killed, cannot be targeted by spells, that the lowly peons fighters who serve them can feel relevant by dealing HP damage, and retain the option to just do things the lame way by unleashing 10D6 fireballs on groups of people for 35 average damage per round per person. Spook, their level 1 Save or "Get out of my hair for three rounds" now has a -8 save penalty, giving it a 60% chance of taking out the level 40 Fighter who just wandered in from ToB and used GWW, 80% with a Malaison.
If they get particularly feisty, the M/T can also pull out a PfMW to make themselves completely untouchable to such nasties as Mind Flayers, but let's face it, dealing 8D8+16 damage to every mindflayer in melee range with zero risk is at best a plan B, since Greenstone Amulet charges aren't free.
SoA 3/3: 14/16 - 1 HLA.
The M/T has 6/6/6/5/5/3/2 spells.
The M/T has UAI so they can stop using the Staff of the Magi to dispel people in exchange for Carsomyr (I'm not sure why they'd do this, since the Staff of the Magi is better, but they can). They can also now join the "helmets" party, get an extra 1/2 APR with the gauntlets (at least until ToB when they ditch them for the Wondrous Gloves of bonus spells per day),and become immune to ranged weapons with the shield (without significantly gimping their performance, since they're already winning encounters with spells)...
They get more snares than anyone else thanks to project image, three Misleads, can summon Mordenkainen's Swords (quasi immortal, psi-immune +4 swords of tanking), Just cast up a projected image, cast whatever spells and snares them need, then buff them up with Fire Shields and stoneskins and send them to go tank enemies outside of the line of sight for the good ol' 20D8+20 no save while taking scratch elemental damage at best. Worried about your body getting attacked while you're gone? Contingency: When Helpless: Invisibility.
Or just Wish for more spells, because the only thing better than six level 1,2,3 and 4 spells is seven level 1, 2, 3 and 4 spells. You can even AOE heal your entire party. Not sure why you'd want to, but it's a possible.
For bonus prep this also includes spending a level 7 spell sequencer one day to instantly cast Mirror Images, Stoneskins and a fireshield as an innate, letting you pull off the combination while polymorphed.
ToB 1/3: 4e6 16/20 - 7 HLAs.
Being a mage, naturally this includes 1 spell of each level HLA, UAI, and your choice of two epic snares, so you have:
6/6/6/6/6/5/4/3 spells.
Asides from the project image spell giving double everything (including those Spike Traps), you now have level 8 spells, and screw simulacrum, we're playing for keeps.
Power Word Blind - Wreck mages, archers, and send most fighters wandering around looking for you, in an AOE no-save-just-suck.
Power Word Stun - Save or be helpless for pretty much the rest of the battle, AOE with a -4 save penalty. -4 spell penalties means a base 50% chance of failure for even ToB enemies.
Spell Trigger - Greater Malaison + Feeble Mind + Feeble Mind = level 30 mages have a 25% chance of not becoming a drooling vegetable. If you want to cast a GM first, this can be Feeble Mind x3 for a 12.5% chance to make the save, or a 6.4% for your average epic level fighter saves user. Works best in a tag team with your buddy the cleric of course, who can use Doom and Chant to give that particular combination a 1.5% chance of not taking out pretty much any single target in the game that isn't a lich, and this can be replenished whenever you're in a nice safe town with some downtime at the local inn, meaning it doesn't interfere with your daily spells either.
I'll take a moment to note that a good proportion of the previous tactics still work perfectly well for the M/T, if not better, as it goes up in levels, so all those lower level spells are still doing their jobs to make sure the mage/thief can be tank if they want to (PfMW alone means your average 5 APR chump takes 130 damage by the end of the buff, while they're still chunking enemies with mislead shenanigans whenever the mood takes them).
ToB 2/3: 6e6 18/23 - 12 HLAs.
6/6/6/6/6/5/5/4/2
Everybody else can go home, the Mage/Thief now has level 9 spells and Summon Planetar (this could be Improved Alacrity, but we'll save that for last).
In addition to turning into a magic immune golem (it's a nice change from the magic immune slime they've been able to turn into since level 7), they can also turn into a Mind Flayer, Improved Haste, and enough Time Traps to jump a time zone.
Mind Flayers get 2 APR, 4 APR iHaste, and kill Yaga Shura in three hits, Sendai in five hits, Draconis in four hits, Abazigal in four hits... Yaga Shura's army? Buff up and send the army, you won't get Exp for killing anyone as a Mind Flayer, but who cares? You don't need Exp anymore, and you will tear through the entire army pretty much solo in rounds.
About to meet a boss? Chain Contingency: Cast any three spells you like up to level 8 based off various conditions, like "see enemy". You can already deal with most things instantly with Spell Trigger, so let's go with something tame like instant cast three symbol of stuns to target "the first enemy you see", which happens to be the group of massed high level fighters you gathered together in close proximity with an invisible summon earlier? Greater Malaison from just out of line of sight, SoStun x3 triggers when the first one showed up, Save or Stun at -8, three times. Out of twenty gathered fighters, about "one" made their save, the rest are stunned for 20 rounds. Risk free extermination? Worst case just summon some monsters and then kite the lone survivor while they straight up murder the rest.
Feel like not breaking the game? Summon a Planetar instead. These suckers mean that the M/T now has a cleric in a box, raising and healing pretty much whenever before being sent off to die while doing what damage it can muster with its vorpal sword (, insect plagues, no save Holy Words (for instant spell failure), MR ignoring Firestorms and even more self-contained save or sucks which cost the M/T nothing.
Want to cast spells forever? Keep a stack of scrolls of Power Word Kill in your pocket, cast Spell Trap, cast Project Image, have the Projected Image cast Power Word Kill on you a few times, completely restore a bunch of high level spells you lost. Or just memorise Power Word Kill, Spell Trap and Delayed Blast Fireball. Project Image costs you zero spell slots, you can now do this all week while the fighters are complaining of "fatigue". The higher your level, the easier you can break spell economy with zero risk of failure, unlike Wish cycling.
ToB 3/3: 7.5e6 20/27 - 18 HLAs.
M/T has 6/6/6/6/6/6/5/5/3 spells.
You just picked up a third level 9 spell, letting you combine Spell Trap, Shapechange and Power Word Kill for infinite Shapechanges per day without using image scrolls, along with every other spell in the game you have below level 8.
Since this is late ToB, I feel zero guilt in using Improved Alacrity, which is basically: Do any of the things you wanted to do at any other time, except do them now, all at once, in the same round, because some things just need killing.
While Dragon's Breath is 20D8 with save MR-ignoring party friendly fire damage with every image, honestly you might as well send off that single Projected Image casting the old, old Fire Shield x2 + PfMW shtick, for 40D8+80 damage no save against the proverbial 5 APR enemy (80D8+160 if they use GWW) while the image casts save or sucks against any mages in the area (you'll want an expendable scout, such as a wizard's eye or a K>T to walk ahead and spot for you, then clean up anything that survived).
By the time level 9 Kensai has started their dual, the M/T has level 4 spells and can tank most of the dangerous enemies in the game while dealing hundreds of damage with Fire Shields. Assuming you are not artificially restricting rests, they have enough spells to contribute meaningfully (and by meaningfully I mean "dominating") with spells in easily five or more major encounters per day. By the time the K>T is level 7 Thief, and there is no reason why your Mage/Thief does not have the Ring of Gaxx, they can take out everything involved solo. They can also beat pretty much the entirety of D'Arnisse Keep, solo, four massed groups of trolls at a time before taking out Torgal and his buddies while the rest of the party sits and watches.
By the time the K>T starts to feel good about their damage, the M/T has been taking out entire groups of enemies and rendering them helpless since level 1.
By the time the F>S gets back online, the M/T stopped caring about AC awhile ago and outside of smug superiority at being able to get their AC higher than anyone else if they want to, they never care again.
By the time the F/T is stocking up on GWWs, the M/T is summoning copies of itself which tank better and hurt more than pretty much anyone else in the game that's not also a high level mage, are completely expendable, and can still dominate the battlefield with the exact same save or sucks that have been turning fights in your favour since level 3.
By the time the K>T is hoarding scrolls of mislead and using Assassination to feel good about itself, Oh goody! You can deal 40 more damage per backstab? Who cares? The M/T has been mislead backstabbing for half of SoA for minimum +20 damage per hit three times a round, and by the time you manage the same trick the M/T can do it more times per day than there are scrolls in Saradush.
When I say it's not a fair comparison, I mean it. Mages are, and always have been, better than fighters in anything but a no-resting environment. Fighters are underpaid chumps who stand in front and take damage, mages are people that can take out groups of enemies that cannot even see them while summoning fighters to stand in front and take damage. Why would the Mage want in on that? That makes no sense. Fighters get kills? Great, you killed a guy whose only action was to stand there and dribble on himself, because the Mage/Thief got there first.
Thieves, however, combine great with Mages, who always appreciate yet another method of damage dealing - snares, making targets completely helpless before them - time traps, yet another method of being undetectable - stealth, yet another method of leveraging invisibility - backstab, and yet another method of debuffing opponents that try to avoid their spells - detect illusions.
The Mage/Thief dominates at all levels with save or X, can bolster those save or sucks with raw damage if they want - 84 average damage to a group with a single charge from a wand of fire, available from: Your first wand of fire.
And currently? Due to an engine bug their APR is permanently set to 5 using MMM and 10 using Energy Blades. The Mage/Thief attacks more often with the Ravager +6 than you do.
tl;dr? Screw your petty mortal concerns, the Mage/Thief just brain wiped you, Mislead backstabbed your entire party while being an untouchable immortal godspawn, and is now using you as a footstool.
As your other questions? While you and your particular scenario might have problems, if I were running a Fighter looking to dual, then yes, I'd just run with another thief. Thief skills aren't why I'd be running a Fighter>Swashbuckler, though I'd happily ditch thief #2 as they came online, rather it's all about having a top tier melee monkey for most of chapter 2 onwards (not kidding about how hard I optimise my Exp gains).
And if I do have two thieves keeping each other company? Awesome, it can be Jan, no need for anyone else. They can team up, stealthing forever, stabbing together. A CHARNAME fighter can easily be 19 Strength coming in from BG1, though Jan has no need for such junk, he can handle tanking duty and grab magic boosting gear in preference to messing around with lowly peon gear.
Later on, after holding my hand through the tumultuous period of regaining my thief skills (during which time he supplies hundreds of thousands of Exp by scribing scrolls and effortlessly soloing things he's been holding back on to help make me feel important, like high level demiliches), Jan will be dishing out backstabs from Mislead while I stand around as a TWFing murdertank with -25 AC and 5 APR, and together we'll shred anything that comes until our bromance comes against a Lich (Jan's job) a dragon (I'll be tanking thanks to the the layers of debuffs and buffs that Jan used to help make me better at my job serving as his lowly peon... all while he considers whether or not to just mindwipe it in a single round), and while holding hands and skipping we'll lure things back into a small mountain of snares we made together, before gazing lovingly into one anothers' eyes and letting Jan get his backstab on. If you know what I mean. Unless it's a dragon or something else immune, in which case I'll just finish them off in regular melee.
So yeah, it's either that or use Imoen to trapfind through Irenicus' dungeon, then bypass trap heavy dungeons (good examples being Trademeet's druid grove, the Circus Tent and the early Windspear Hills, which are light on locks and traps while giving plenty of spank opportunity for a single class Kensai, while the Planar Sphere, for example, does have a few locks and traps, much of them can be bypassed without trouble and the entire place looted more thoroughly later for more Exp) before switching at 1.25e6 and then cashing in a bunch of quests to jump to level 8 or so and using the thief skills to cover heavy duty lock picking and trap clearing duty for another Exp jump. Solo clearing the Doors room in the Docks is probably enough to hit level 10 or 11, and then it's coattails for 660,000 Exp.
And for kill comparison?
Kensai 13 = 1.25e6 Exp of being the primary damage dealer without quest rewards. 8.8e5 Exp of being trapfinder with all the quest rewards cashed in (free hundreds of thousands of Exp). 5.9e6 Exp of being a striker with two grand masteries and +1/2 an APR.
Kensai 9 = 2.5e5 Exp of being the primary damage dealer, 1.6e5 of being trapfinder with all quest rewards cashed in, 7.5e5 Experience of being a fighter that, occasional backstab aside, is at best "equal" to the Kensai 13. If each kill is a certain amount of experience, then unless you believe that dealing more damage, hitting more often, and hitting more frequently will not improve the kill count of the K13 then no, "by the end of the game" it will overall be getting a consistently higher proportion of kills and will have for approximately six million Exp's worth of murder.
Let's review Exp sources:
Circus Tent Mother: 3,000 Exp.
Return Wellyn's Teddy: 20,500 Exp.
Acorns!: 9,750 Exp.
Get Lilarcor: 18,000 Exp. Each.
Free the Coronet Slaves (You don't rescue these people from their plight early do you?): 5,000 Exp for the kids, 7500 for Hendak, 48,750 XP for watching Hendak win. - 61,250 Exp.
Report the death of the Slavers to Hendak: 8,500 Exp + 38,000 Exp - 46,500 Exp
Talk to the Tanner: 23,250 Exp plus 45,000 XP
Find a caretaker for Risa - 15,250 Exp.
Give Xzar the Harper Bird - 35,500 Exp. Each.
Talk to Nalia about having cleared D'Arnisse keep: 45,500 Exp.
Return the Rift Device (stash it in a box until now): 47,250 Exp.
Report on the Beholder Cult: 45,750 Exp. Each.
Give Sarles the fake Illithium - 10,000 Exp.
Recover the ring of Lathander - 16,500 Exp.
Resolve Druid Problem: 18,000 Exp. Each.
Djinni in Trademeet: 10,000 Exp.
Saviour of Trademeet: 25,250 XP. Each.
Feuding Families: 8,000 Exp.
Thieves Guild - Step 1 Necklace of Talos: 49,500 Exp.
Step 2: Have your party kill a mage for Edwin while you watch enviously: 29,000 Exp (1 kill)
Step 3: Documents: 10,000 Exp.
Step 4: Tell Maevar what Embarl said for 28,750 Exp.
Supply proof for Rae'nal: 48,250 Exp.
Assuming you were an angel and did not kick out your four man party for ANY of that (and I did assume you already finished the Unseeing Eye quest rather than leaving people better equipped for killing beholders to handle that part and get Gaal's sweet 75,000 quest exp as well) and I didn't miss any where it was Exp Each, that's 274,000 Exp from quest rewards, meaning you're already over a quarter of the way there and are reasonably capable of contributing even at thief THAC0 while dual wielding (15 before weapon and strength is plenty enough to hit many SoA enemies, particularly with backstab), and that's before you grab another boatload of Exp by clearing all the locks and traps you've been saving up on, like the Door room.
And if you are just such a cheeky bugger of course, then you can immediately use those potions of master thievery you've been hording all game and steal every scroll in Waukeen's Promenade for another few hundred thousand exp even if you have to invite other mages along to provide some of it, meaning you can neatly bypass any real downtime and give your team a major leg up to compensate for the tiny delay in getting their quest rewards.
As for early game gear, honestly even in challenge games where I spend and steal nothing until I've earned 150,000 gold to save Imoen (not a typo) there's more than enough gear thrown at you that it's never really been a problem, so I'm not sure losing Pickpocket access until you naturally accrue PoMTs is a problem.
I do think, at times, there is some meandering off topic as if we begin talking about BG1 (this is a bg2 forum) and soloing the game. This was about a party setup and you mention solo a few times. Did you mean if the party stood back and watched him solo for fun? F/M/T is likely the clear choice in a solo game. However, the strongest thief is part of the most powerful party. Nomatter how strong that solod xp-hoarding multi gets, he won't be as strong as a well formed party. His defenses would be stripped and he would be slain in a duel. Also he will be lonelier, did you consider that? Not resting excessively was part of the OP but I am just fine with talking in terms of resting when you need to.
When I speak of fighter, I mean what it adds to the thief. Not a pure comparison of class vs class. I don't need the tanking skills of the mage element. I already have a tank. In a party situation, the F/M/T damage wise is indeed a slow bloomer. If tanking is your aim, I don't feel that qualifies as power. A variety of classes can handle tanking. It will be some time before you acquire powerful offensive magics outside of a solo environment. Offense is more important with the most powerful thief in terms of a party.
Finally the M/T. The M/T has low HP, low proficiency weapon levels, low attacks... so mislead is this character and it's x5 of what kind of disappointing damage? Even if you rested after every single fight and were constantly in a state of mislead, I don't think you'd catch up to the K/T in endgame kills. The K/T can hide, drink potions, use scrolls, and invis items. He gets plenty of backstabs so you have to make up the difference with much less damage and a few more backstabs. I tell you, I don't see that happening.
Otherwise, just about everything you say is quite right. You can do the things you say. Whether those tactics are stronger are not is the issue. We also disagree on XP mining. I feel it trivializes a game that already becomes too easy at the highest xp levels. I feel we just have to agree to disagree and much of that is subjective to our contrasting play styles.
@Nuin
I thought that was what you meant. It is true that multis can specialize in more weapons, I believe they even get a few more proficiencies end game. 18 vs 21 or so I think? I grandmaster 3 weapons, 1 pip in two handed style with 2 left over. I put them in hammer so I can slay the last 5 undead with the runehammer. How silly is the late placement of that weapon?
So you can call it an advantage of sorts that the multi cannot grandmaster, however three weapons means I can use all I want. Flail of the Ages goes to the tank, Crom takes the best str belt and means your backstabs will be weaker or whenever you take the flail off. I assume you'd want to WW with a two hander right? If I'm a solod F/M/T, what you say makes more sense as I can horde every last item. The most powerful thief doesn't siphon power from other members, thus reducing his actual damage by proxy.
The game provides you with more than enough useful weapons without having to steal from the selection pool of other NPCs. Also, Crom is definitely worth making depending on party composition.
I actually don't see it as a clear advantage because there's no reason why a K/T shouldn't these weapons if he really needs to, the point though is that saying that the K/T has a clear "+5 to hit and +6 to damage" advantage through a large chunk of SoA is simply inaccurate.
BTW, if you choose to get grandmastery in three weapons you're basically abandoning your THAC0 advantage over the F/T by not getting dual-wielding.
Yes, I did mean that the M/T is a big enough badass that the rest of their party just stands around and takes it easy. Played the ways I mentioned she's actually a pretty good team player. They don't really need many items that other characters need to function in melee (though it's always nice to have a CHARNAME who hoards all the stat bonuses and at least a few defensive items like the Ring of Gaxx), all those debuffs will make the enemies nice and harmless so your partymates can kill them more easily, especially if you're throwing a haste their way, and if you're standing in the middle taking the hits (while simultaneously dealing the aforementioned 40D8+80 damage) then your party is free to do what they do.
And yes, part of the reason I wasn't talking about the M/T previously is just that - Fighter adds to thief, it gives it things it needs to make things like backstab better, but still plays like a thief does because outside of using their thief skills the thief does all the same thing a fighter does, except worse.
Mage/Thief doesn't really play like a thief, so much as it plays like a mage who finds traps. A mage gets a lot of benefits from being a thief, but it's Mage that's supplying most of the muscle in that particular combination. The class behaves nothing like the others.
That said, if I had to pick one class that stands alone against a six vs one team? Probably the Mage/Thief. Mage/Cleric is a close second, but the thief's abilities in the context of
Offensively speaking, do note the F/M/T has access to wands and spells.
How much does a level 9 Kensai deal per hit? Assuming 20 Strength (+8), Grand Mastery (+5), and Kensai (+3) and Daystar (1D8+4) that's 24.5 damage per hit, say three and a half times a round (if you have Belm at level 9.
That's 87ish damage.
The F/M/T with the same Exp as a level 9 Kensai has 4th level spells, If they're in melee and people are hitting them, then with Fireshield they're dealing 6.5 damage per hit, every hit. Two attacks? They've dealt 13 damage. Four attacks? 26 damage - It's not huge, but it's free, the F/M/T doesn't actually have to do anything except exist for this to deal damage, and against certain opponents they're completely immune to damage while this is happening.
They can still attack while whatever else is going on. With the same gear as the Kensai, that's 8+2+4+1D8 - 18.5 damage per hit, twice. 37 damage.
So now we have a choice.
Group? Then use a wand of fire in laser mode. 6D6 damage, for two rounds (12D6 total). If the target saves, that's 10.5 average damage per round. How many enemies are there? If the number is six (a kill squad of Paladins), then that's 63 damage per round, just by walking around a little bit to hose over your enemies. And yes, you can cast another spell in round #2 while getting another 63 damage for free.
Single target? Wand of Lightning: 18D6 damage. Save for half for every 3D6. If they make all six saves, that's still 31.5 damage average.
Remember that frequently the target won't save, so the average you can expect is somewhere between the values I've given and double that.
And if the F/M/T goes debuffer, we have a helpless enemy who cannot avoid being hit. Guaranteed damage for the entire party all thanks to the F/M/T. How much extra damage does that give?
Wands are a pretty big deal in the early game, you get given one of each type in Irenicus' dungeon (which obviously you keep, sell, and then steal back for 50 charges each), and they're cheap as chips in stores too, enough to make the F/M/T competitive, damagewise, with the high strength grand mastered Kensai, who they're significantly more durable than (in your own words, "how much damage do you lose out on while running away to heal?"), and more than enough to put them ahead of the F/T multiclass who they deal the same damage as in melee, while getting wands on top.
Also, by tanking, do note that in addition to being able to stand in front of physical things like Giant Trolls while being immune to their damage (so go ahead and cast both Fireshields and deal them 13 damage per hit per enemy) I'm talking about tanking Mages, Liches, Demiliches, and Beholders to mean they can no sell anything they throw at them.
Unless you're carrying a shield of Balduran (too cheesy for me), Beholders are death spewing abberations immune to backstab that... The F/M/T can slime up to and kill with impunity, one after the other, with zero risk of injury.
Liches? Backstab immune, invisibility seeing badasses that.... The F/M/T can slime up to and kill with impunity.
Demiliches? Spell Immunity Necromancy, Spell Immunity Abjuration, kill them with Daystar for free loot.
Cowled Wizard? It doesn't really matter how much damage the kensai would deal to their stoneskins, while the F/M/T can just sit there eating whatever gets thrown at them while continuing to attack and hit them with wands for free exp and loot.
Being able to survive conflict with the enemy is frequently the difference between being able to kill that enemy and losing half your party as they Horrid Wilting you to the ground, and just like the Mage/Thief, the F/M/T can simply take them out solo while the rest of the party waits for them to run out of spells.
And oh dear, I've done it again. Do you mind if I respond in bullet points? Maybe I can be more concise with bullet points.
So Fighter who duals at level 10 (THAC0 11) becomes a thief.
At level 11, Thief regains fighter levels, and their THAC0 changes from Thief THAC0 to Fighter THAC0 11 and stays there.
At level 21, Thief THAC0 = 10, so the Fighter>Thief THAC0 becomes 10.
If they became a mage instead, it would stay at the old Fighter THAC0 of 11, because Mage THAC0 maxes out at 13.
So only if the new level will *reduce* THAC0 does it change. It's the same for Saving throws.
Multiclass is best wins as well, so a Fighter/Cleric 7/7 has a THAC0 equal to a level 7 Fighter (14).
If Fighter or Ranger is a component in the multiclass, they'll have the THAC0 of the Fighter/Ranger.
If no Fighter or Ranger, but Cleric, they'll have the THAC0 of the Cleric.
And if it's a Mage/Thief, they'll have the THAC0 according to their Thief level.
And they'll also gain proficiencies in the same hierarchy - Warriors > Priests > Rogues > Mages. So a Mage/Thief 4/4 will have 3 proficiencies (just like a level 4 pure class Thief), the fact that Mages also gain a proficiency pip is ignored.