Something worth pointing out: since the release of the Enhanced Edition, the default difficulty has always been "Normal", which means the default handling of hit point rolls (again, for the Enhanced Edition) has always been "Maximum".
Anyway for those hardcore average hp fan, would really appreciate you do not enforce your rule to everyone else. If u are so determined on average hp, you can always play on insanity where enemy dmg are doubled (same effect as with ur hp effectively halved).
It's not "our" rule, it's the rule. It's nice that Beamdog is accommodating people like you, but I still think it's pretty selfish to *demand* that they add in the ability to not play by the rules because you are, for some reason, not willing to help yourself by 1) using EEKeeper or 2) using one of the numerous mods that generous modders have made available to you for free, out of the goodness of their heart, or 3) using the easy, official, in-game difficulty slider method.
And while, again, I think it's lovely that the devs are doing what the OP asks, Beamdog PLEASE do not make that the default option. Contrary to the quoted post, it is NOT the same effect as just playing with max HP at a higher difficulty level. As explained above, every melee hit, every spell, every trap, EVERYTHING relies on dice rolls. Max HP by default would be a HUGE change to the way this whole game system works.
If the devs are going to make max HP the default or assumed setting, they should be willing to remove dice roll calculations from every other area of the game that affects HP - make every longsword do straight 8 damage instead of 1d8, every Fireball do 60 damage instead of 10d6, etc.
EDIT to add: @Dee@CamDawg "just mod your game to get average rolls" rings pretty hollow when the iOS game still can't be missed. Just sayin'...
Hello, if you did read my post clearly I was asking for the Max HP Lvl up *OPTION*. I am asking for an option to toggle ON/OFF anytime we want it. Not demanding it to be implemented as a standard rule.
Just add a MAx HP on Lvl up option and everything would have been solved.
Max HP is not game breaking or whatsoever.
This has been confirmed on the previous page as being implemented (confirmed by me, incidentally). I was just responding to the notion that "Max HP rolls on level up" was not already the default behavior, even before the option was added.
Any difficulty at normal and below has MAX HP as standard setting. Any difficulty above that has ROLLED HP as the standard setting. So advocating for "average hp" being the standard setting is exactly as entitled as the ones arguing for "max hp" being the standard setting.
I agree. Which is why no one has advocated for that.
The standard setting should be the same as it always have been. Max for normal and below in difficulty and rolled for anything above.
Again, I agree. So what are you arguing about...?
Apparently I've misunderstood what you meant and I am happy that you agree on the above. The line: "it is not our rule, it is THE rule"? confused me, and if you agree on the above, I don't understand what that line means. I really don't think I was hostile towards you in the quoted section. I'd also say that you have misunderstood the OP's intentions. The title of the thread does afterall include the word "option". But that doesn't change my other point about the following quote:
If the devs are going to make max HP the default or assumed setting, they should be willing to remove dice roll calculations from every other area of the game that affects HP - make every longsword do straight 8 damage instead of 1d8, every Fireball do 60 damage instead of 10d6, etc.
This still seems like you are demanding huge things from the devs if they should indeed change the standard setting, when you could just as easily change the setting, like the people using max hp can now. The only difference is that you are demanding that things stay the same or else. But what if the devs want to change things? (Not saying that they want to or that they should).
EDIT to add: @Dee@CamDawg "just mod your game to get average rolls" rings pretty hollow when the iOS game still can't be missed. Just sayin'...
I never suggested as such, and for the reason you mention. I always keep an eye out for player suggestions.
Yeah, that was all me, there. To be clear, I don't think it's a bad idea, just that it's not something the engine currently supports (as opposed to Max HP, which we pretty much just decoupled from the difficulty settings), so it's not likely to be even attempted unless there's widespread support for it. Personally I like average rolls best (certainly better than rolling every level), but most game options in the IE games are binary--either you have X, or you have Y. There is no third option. (Difficulty is a special case.)
Adding a third option for "the way HP is calculated on level-up" adds a level of complexity that isn't necessarily worth it, when it can easily be accomplished with mods. Which doesn't mean it's not worth requesting (in the Feature Requests forum, please), but like anything else, understand that we're working with 20-year-old code here, and things that may seem straight-forward aren't necessarily so.
It sort of is as a balance issue, but a lot of that has to do with how messed up the D&D approach to hit points is. Basically at lows levels you can easily be fubarred by a single damage roll. It's fair enough at times: an ogre can instagib a level 1 fighter. At level 2, you're looking at that same 14 points of damage being anywhere from 50-74% of your HP, getting incrementally smaller the higher you go. At the levels where you're getting instantly killed, your hp pool not being everything it can be can really sucks.
The problem is at about level 6 of maxed HP, you've shot past the point where your HP pool makes incoming damage tolerable and now you're reaching "Haha, I wade through fireballs for fun!"
Since we're tossing out all the bonkers things we'd like to see for HP growth, I'd like to see something like the HP you get per level equals ((Max die roll - level) + Constitution Bonus) per level, so those early levels your survivability goes up faster and slows to a tolerable, not overly abundant number when you reach the point of perpetual +3s. So for a fighter it would be 14+13+12+11+10+9+8+7+6+5+3+3+3+3+3+3+3... etc. That way you get higher survivability at early levels, but still peak at what is about the average if you'd actually rolled 9d10.
Edit: I kind of like that. Think I'm going to be poking some 2da's tonight.
Rolling for hit points was the rule in AD&D PnP. Rolling hit points for your level up was always an exciting moment! But that said, I've seen so many variations from different DMs I'd say its hardly set in stone.
Max HP at first level was once an "innovation". I think it was first suggested by Ed Greenwood in print (one of the primary designers of 2E and the Forgotten Realms); but most of the DMs I played with had already been doing it for a while. Its a very practical policy; nothing like spending 45 minutes creating a character (everything is slower in PnP) only to roll a "1" for hit points. Flush... Given how crippling a bad roll early on could be many DMs added house rules to make things better; like roll TWO dice and keep the high roll. Or my own favorite; re-roll any hit die you want on the next smaller die, but there's no going back. I imagine implementing such a thing for a computer game would be far more trouble than its worth. CRPGs are just so much different. A big thing is that combat is SO MUCH more common. Characters are constantly taking damage, casting spells, using resources; at a FAR faster rate than in PnP. I think this completely undermines "balance" compared to the PnP rules. Not to say its all "bad", just that the intended balance of things is going to be a little off compared to PnP no matter how slavishly faithful the CRPG is to source material.
Which is my long way of getting to; I think max hit points on level up is a completely reasonable choice for the player to make in BG. Fewer hit points mostly just adds to the administrative chore of keeping your front-liners at or near fully healed at all times. But I don't really mean that to take sides in this discussion (!). I like the way its implemented in BG. At every level up the player can chose a random roll or max hit points by moving the slider. The choice is always valid either way, and the game allows it pretty painlessly. The old Gold Box games made no such provision (that I recall) so numerous reloads were common (no matter how "honest" I'm trying to play, I won't accept a "1" for a Warrior!).
A big thing is that combat is SO MUCH more common. Characters are constantly taking damage, casting spells, using resources; at a FAR faster rate than in PnP. I think this completely undermines "balance" compared to the PnP rules. Not to say its all "bad", just that the intended balance of things is going to be a little off compared to PnP no matter how slavishly faithful the CRPG is to source material..
Quoted for truth. I see a lot of discussions about how things are put out of balance because of X or Y "In relation to PnP". The simple truth of the matter is that CRPG games are NOT PnP. Any game that I've ever played in Baldur's gate or any of the D&D licenses had dozens of orders of magnitudes more combat situations than PnP, and I am including things like ToEE where the game was pretty much put verbatim from the module. You just get into more combat in CRPG, primarily because there are fewer Role play options in a (more or less) binary (or at least branching) conversation system.
I think the PC or Party are intended to be more powerful than 'The average' on a Hit point basis and therefore should have at least a slight advantage. But I also think that Options which allow the player to play how they choose (within reason) are not a bad thing either.
Iron Heroes is also a good example of what you're looking for; it's a tabletop rule system designed by Mike Mearls that gives every class a d4 for variable hit points, modified by each class's specific hp bonus. So instead of 1d10, your typical fighter would roll 1d4+6, before adding Constitution into the mix.
Max HP at first level was once an "innovation". I think it was first suggested by Ed Greenwood in print (one of the primary designers of 2E and the Forgotten Realms); but most of the DMs I played with had already been doing it for a while. Its a very practical policy; nothing like spending 45 minutes creating a character (everything is slower in PnP) only to roll a "1" for hit points. Flush...
Max roll for level 1 is actually mandated in 5e.
The HP files let you specify xdy+z at every level for every class (CON bonuses defined elsewhere) which lets you dial in dice pretty much any way you want. For a fighter (by default) it's just 1d10+0 through level 9 and 0d0+3 after. For max rolls in Tweaks, it changes it to 0d0+10 at low levels; the NWN option is basically 5d2+0. Dee's Iron Heroes scheme is also entirely possible; maybe I'll be adding two new options for the component instead of one.
I feel bad and have even replayed some major fights because I have nerfed the difficulty down to super easy=max hit point when a character levels up and forgotten to put back up to Offical dnd rulez. I would level some character than fight a huge battle with a supposedly hard foe... and think wow that was easy then check and see it was on super easy mode and feel so guilty and filthy like a Lance armstrong after doing some blood bags with epo and then talking to the press about helping cancer kids....
I had a question on joinable hitpoints of characters we meet. Do joinable characters have MAX hotpoints or AVERAGED hitpoints. I often would race to the Mines as fast as I could and avoid injuring a goblin and gain that blood letting experience just so I could find my favorite Lawful and Good Fighter Cleric at like level 3/3 or 4/4 instead of 6/6 - if you found him at 6/6 he had averaged blah hitpoints that were NOT MAXED>
Anyway yeah it is hard to equate to real life but I use to be a sort of warrior ranger class and had a lot of hit points. I would take like 1-2 damage points every day from sun and eat sand damage as well as gnat insect swarms when I was part of a Iron Throne Plot to control the Oils in the Gulf. However, part of my Marine character template was that I regenerated hitpoints when I used an entire mini tabasco potion bottle from my MRE. So really I was kind of impossible to kill though in truth I never got hit by any fireballs - but I probably could have waded through one like you said cause I would say at Corporal I was level 4 or 5 with maxed hotpoints. Anyway I am reely happy the hitpoints has a max level up option.
I am guilty of setting difficulty back or reloading just to get maximized HP.... just look at poor Viconia , comes to you with lvl 6 and 27 HP ... and could have 48 and the thing is it could even be Worse...
Scribbling a scroll without using a Potion , my own damn fault. Not able to pick that lock because i wanted to sneak better ? own damn fault. getting 1 HP as fighter of 10 Possible ....not my damn fault and Bullshit ! excuse the language..
and worse is there is like no reason what so ever to make it for HP only ...everything else is set in stone , be LVL so and so thief and you have this saving throws for wands n stuff that many thieving skills , but the last 5 lvl ups you rolled a 1 out of 6 every time and now your 25 HP short and even the mage is laughing at you...
Right on Devard- that is one reason I only completed BG2 with Hagan Das ICecream Chaos Bard and Jan a few times - they tend to just die ever other battle with their weak hitpoints. Especially the blade bard as he is in close fighting. I end up always making jan toss daggers or darts and the bard snipes like a cowardly but surviving spotter in a hole too - I know they get stone skin but that runs out and fireballs are not blocked.
I wish BG1 BG2 and SoD had a click option button before you start the game that was- all joinable charaters have max hit points.
That mod you mentions sounds great Doc but I never install any mods
I'd be in favour of a choice of average HPs (round up) like 5e, or straightforward roll. Like, err...5e.
I play strictly no reload, so I take what I'm given. It tends to average out. The only 'cheating' I do is to roll my initial stats about 500 times until I get a standout roll (currently 89 which is the lowest I've played with for a while, 18/96 strength sealed it). Having 18/19/20 constitution means plenty of HPs anyway.
I can confirm that the "Max HP on Level Up" option will be in the in-game Options menu for SoD. There are no plans for an "Average HP on Level Up" option, though; if you want that, it's easy enough to modify the appropriate 2da files.
Looking at the BG2EE beta, I ask to make Max HP on Level Up not a default option, i.e. turned ON in the game options.
Please, make so that the Max HP on Level Up option is turned OFF by default in the game options (not like it is in the BG2EE beta now).
Comments
Max HP is not game breaking or whatsoever.
Hello, if you did read my post clearly I was asking for the Max HP Lvl up *OPTION*. I am asking for an option to toggle ON/OFF anytime we want it. Not demanding it to be implemented as a standard rule.
Did you even read my thread title? *frown*
The line: "it is not our rule, it is THE rule"? confused me, and if you agree on the above, I don't understand what that line means. I really don't think I was hostile towards you in the quoted section.
I'd also say that you have misunderstood the OP's intentions. The title of the thread does afterall include the word "option".
But that doesn't change my other point about the following quote: This still seems like you are demanding huge things from the devs if they should indeed change the standard setting, when you could just as easily change the setting, like the people using max hp can now. The only difference is that you are demanding that things stay the same or else. But what if the devs want to change things? (Not saying that they want to or that they should).
Adding a third option for "the way HP is calculated on level-up" adds a level of complexity that isn't necessarily worth it, when it can easily be accomplished with mods. Which doesn't mean it's not worth requesting (in the Feature Requests forum, please), but like anything else, understand that we're working with 20-year-old code here, and things that may seem straight-forward aren't necessarily so.
The problem is at about level 6 of maxed HP, you've shot past the point where your HP pool makes incoming damage tolerable and now you're reaching "Haha, I wade through fireballs for fun!"
Since we're tossing out all the bonkers things we'd like to see for HP growth, I'd like to see something like the HP you get per level equals ((Max die roll - level) + Constitution Bonus) per level, so those early levels your survivability goes up faster and slows to a tolerable, not overly abundant number when you reach the point of perpetual +3s. So for a fighter it would be 14+13+12+11+10+9+8+7+6+5+3+3+3+3+3+3+3... etc. That way you get higher survivability at early levels, but still peak at what is about the average if you'd actually rolled 9d10.
Edit: I kind of like that. Think I'm going to be poking some 2da's tonight.
Max HP at first level was once an "innovation". I think it was first suggested by Ed Greenwood in print (one of the primary designers of 2E and the Forgotten Realms); but most of the DMs I played with had already been doing it for a while. Its a very practical policy; nothing like spending 45 minutes creating a character (everything is slower in PnP) only to roll a "1" for hit points. Flush...
Given how crippling a bad roll early on could be many DMs added house rules to make things better; like roll TWO dice and keep the high roll. Or my own favorite; re-roll any hit die you want on the next smaller die, but there's no going back. I imagine implementing such a thing for a computer game would be far more trouble than its worth.
CRPGs are just so much different. A big thing is that combat is SO MUCH more common. Characters are constantly taking damage, casting spells, using resources; at a FAR faster rate than in PnP. I think this completely undermines "balance" compared to the PnP rules. Not to say its all "bad", just that the intended balance of things is going to be a little off compared to PnP no matter how slavishly faithful the CRPG is to source material.
Which is my long way of getting to; I think max hit points on level up is a completely reasonable choice for the player to make in BG. Fewer hit points mostly just adds to the administrative chore of keeping your front-liners at or near fully healed at all times.
But I don't really mean that to take sides in this discussion (!). I like the way its implemented in BG. At every level up the player can chose a random roll or max hit points by moving the slider. The choice is always valid either way, and the game allows it pretty painlessly. The old Gold Box games made no such provision (that I recall) so numerous reloads were common (no matter how "honest" I'm trying to play, I won't accept a "1" for a Warrior!).
So long essay, for status quo...
I think the PC or Party are intended to be more powerful than 'The average' on a Hit point basis and therefore should have at least a slight advantage. But I also think that Options which allow the player to play how they choose (within reason) are not a bad thing either.
The HP files let you specify xdy+z at every level for every class (CON bonuses defined elsewhere) which lets you dial in dice pretty much any way you want. For a fighter (by default) it's just 1d10+0 through level 9 and 0d0+3 after. For max rolls in Tweaks, it changes it to 0d0+10 at low levels; the NWN option is basically 5d2+0. Dee's Iron Heroes scheme is also entirely possible; maybe I'll be adding two new options for the component instead of one.
Anyway yeah it is hard to equate to real life but I use to be a sort of warrior ranger class and had a lot of hit points. I would take like 1-2 damage points every day from sun and eat sand damage as well as gnat insect swarms when I was part of a Iron Throne Plot to control the Oils in the Gulf. However, part of my Marine character template was that I regenerated hitpoints when I used an entire mini tabasco potion bottle from my MRE. So really I was kind of impossible to kill though in truth I never got hit by any fireballs - but I probably could have waded through one like you said cause I would say at Corporal I was level 4 or 5 with maxed hotpoints. Anyway I am reely happy the hitpoints has a max level up option.
Scribbling a scroll without using a Potion , my own damn fault.
Not able to pick that lock because i wanted to sneak better ? own damn fault.
getting 1 HP as fighter of 10 Possible ....not my damn fault and Bullshit ! excuse the language..
and worse is there is like no reason what so ever to make it for HP only ...everything else is set in stone , be LVL so and so thief and you have this saving throws for wands n stuff that many thieving skills , but the last 5 lvl ups you rolled a 1 out of 6 every time and now your 25 HP short and even the mage is laughing at you...
so yeah i would enjoy such a slider.
I wish BG1 BG2 and SoD had a click option button before you start the game that was- all joinable charaters have max hit points.
That mod you mentions sounds great Doc but I never install any mods
I play strictly no reload, so I take what I'm given. It tends to average out. The only 'cheating' I do is to roll my initial stats about 500 times until I get a standout roll (currently 89 which is the lowest I've played with for a while, 18/96 strength sealed it). Having 18/19/20 constitution means plenty of HPs anyway.
Please, make so that the Max HP on Level Up option is turned OFF by default in the game options (not like it is in the BG2EE beta now).