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LoveViconia
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Irenicus
Melissan
Melissan
Anomen
Keldorn
Imoen
Cernd
Winthrop
Mad Arcand
Quayle
I know, I know! The winner will be Mad Arcand.
wertle, wertle, wertle, wooo..
Saverevok vs Irenicus.
* Irenicus: High level magic trumps high level fighters. Between protection spells (stoneskin, protec from magical weapons, etc) and damage spells (time stop, improved alacrity, pew pew), Sarevok will get blasted apart.
Irenicus vs Gorion.
* Irenicus: The greatest elven mage of his generation, against some mid level human mage who got wrecked by a fighter. No contest.
Sarevok vs Melissan.
* Pre-Ascension...Sarevok would probably stand a decent chance. It'd be the cleric of a dead god against a very high level fighter. Post-Ascension it would be Melissan, as she tanks your entire party of epic level characters.
Gorion vs Melissan.
* We don't know enough about pre-ascension Melissan to know her power level. But I'd probably give it to Gorion, purely because he can interrupt her casting with spells like acid arrow, and has the protection spells to keep her from killing him in melee. Post-ascension Melissan kills him without even realizing she did it.
Viconia vs Anomen.
* Anomen (probably): Magic resistance doesn't help you from a hammer to the face, and Anomen has 7 levels of fighter. Back it up with cleric buffs (magic resistance, draw upon holy might, etc), and he'll take her down in CC. Given her very low strength and constitution she won't last long. That is, unless she can get a disabling spell of first.
Viconia vs Keldon.
* Keldorn: Dispel magic, hack, chop, slash.
Imoen vs Jan.
* I'd go for Jan. Merely because he has master flasher bruiser mates, which are downright deadly. But they are both mage/thieves, so it could go either way. Well...I suppose a high level Jan could also trap an area beforehand, which kills everything in the game.
Jahiera vs Cernd.
* I'd probably say Jahiera: They both open with insect plague, stopping both of their casting. Then it is fighter levels vs werewolf, and werewolves just aren't that good.
Add some more.
Regards.
No...we know that 20 odd years ago he raided a temple of Bhaal and saved one child from being sacrificed. That is not the same thing as fighting a God. We know that sometime before that he was part of an adventuring group which humiliated a dragon (note: didn't kill, cripple, etc, just humiliated). In the game he is a mid level mage that managed to quickly get some defensive spells off and then throws some mid level spells around. He isn't a "great" mage, but he is a fairly good one. But he just doesn't compare to the other people on the list.
<"Quote" rel="LoveViconia">Sarevok had and in tob still has the one hit. Despite his lost fight against CHARNAME he does still lead an army spreading fears against enemies.[/quote]
People have been saying that he's strong. He is just a fighter though. And a high level fighter just can't stand up to a high level caster. It's just how it goes. Now, mid to low levels a fighter does just fine. It's just that...well...time stop. Protection spells. Etc. He just can't stand up to all of that.
<"Quote" rel="LoveViconia">Irenicus was powerfull but he lost all his powers.[/quote]
Which Irenicus are you talking about? The one we see in the game, who is the greatest elven mage seen in a generation? Or him after death where his soul is being tortured in hell? Because it doesn't seem quite fair to make a versus and say "no, not him at his prime. Him after death! Where his soul has been stripped of powers and is being punished for his evil ways."
<"Quote" rel="LoveViconia">Melissan was just a priest exploiting spell not hers that she would not be able to control. She ends killing herself by getting crushed from a pillar.[/quote]
That is a gross simplification. Either you are comparing her as the high priestess of a dead god, or as the ascended mellisan where she is on the cusp of godhood. There, she quite easily tanks a full party of epic level adventurers, is able to freely summon very powerful demons...and isn't "crushed from a pillar." She is beaten by a Bhaalspawn and the Throne of Bhaal, the entire dimension, collapses and explodes. That isn't being crushed by a mere pillar.
<"Quote" rel="LoveViconia">Irenicus would just eat her but we all know, in tob the enemy must be stronger than in soa and so on, but the story is quite different.
He would beat her at his prime before she took most of the essence of Bhaal. He'd struggle mightily against her when she is about to turn into a God. Both of them had dreams of Godhood. Versus really comes down to where on the path you compare them.
task manager wins
Charname can only tank Irenicus if he is built to do so. And no, fighters do NOT get a huge defense against magic.
50% MR sword is for Paladins, not fighters.
As for fighter magic resistance, here is the *best* that a fighter can get.
* 10% MR from one of the tears of bhaal (which is not for *fighters*, it is for any Charname)
* 10% MR from a necklace
* 5% MR from the Shield of the Lost or 10% MR from the Flame of the North (2 handed sword)
* 5% MR from the Machine of Lum the Mad (if Charname does that in SoA)
That's it for Shadows of Amn. So a Fighter can drop an HLA for Resist Magic (sets MR at 50%, can't be improved, only lasts 4 rounds) or has 35% Magic Resistance at best from items.
A paladin by that point could have:
*50% from Carmosyr
*10% from necklace
* 5% from Lum
For a total of 65% by the end of SoA.
Irenicus is a lvl 29 mage. A paladin might be able to tank him if he is built for magic resistance. With Carmosyr he has some bite to him as well. A fighter certainly isn't.
A monk though...a monk can get 100% MR by that time, easily beating Irenicus (I've done that before)
And finally, you said "developers from the first version of this BG said fighters are the strongest class."
That is true for *the first version*, ie, Baldur's Gate 1. At low levels, fighters are indeed the strongest class. At high levels mages are the strongest class.
* Fighters: GREAT at low levels
* Mages: WEAK at low levels
* Monks: SUPER WEAK at low levels
* Fighters: AVERAGE at high levels
* Mages: STRONG at high levels
* Monks: GODLY at high levels
High level mages:
* Time stop (6 rounds. High level wizards can cast this, then alacrity, and then time stop again. Yes, high level wizards are very strong, much stronger than BG's AI lets them behave)
* Contingency (auto put all spell protections up, including spell immunity- Abjuration, making Carmosyr unable to dispel)
* Improved Alacrity (instant cast spells)
* Lower Resistance (When cast upon a target creature, this spell will lower the magic resistance of this creature by 10% +1% per level of the caster. There is no saving throw vs. this spell and magic resistance is ignored. A mage of Irinicus' level, for example, would reduce MR by 39% with this)
* Greater Malison (-4 to all saving throws, can cast this multiple times to destroy a fighter's save vs magic)
* A disabling spell if desired, such as chaos. One saved throw and the fighter wanders around like an idiot while the wizard keeps casting after time stop wears off
* Disintergrate (Upon casting this spell at another creature, a thin green ray is shot out. Upon contact, the creature must make a saving throw vs spells or be transformed into dust. This transformation is instantaneous and irreversible. There is also a good chance that this will destroy some if not all of the items that the creature is carrying.)
That's what a high level mage can do. By the time two time stops wear off, he can unload most of his spell book. Strip a fighter of his protections (again...reduce 35% magic resistance down to 0% with a single spell, and reduce a paladin's mighty 65% down to 26%). From there, reduce the fighter's saving throws a few times to GREATLY reduce the ability to resist anything. Finally, confuse the fighter, or just plain old disintegrate him.
Please see the accompanying picture to see how a high level fighter reacts to seeing what a high level mage can do (when used properly)
Example:
Saving throws work like this: Roll a d20 and if you roll equal to or lower than your saving throw, then you are fine.
A lvl 29 fighter has a save vs magic of 6. So a 6+ on a d20 saves.
Irenicus casts time stop. Improved Alacrity. Lower Resistance (removing all fighter spell resistance). Greater Malison. Greater Malison. Time Stop again. Great Malison (yes, he has the spell slots for this, and yes, they stack. Disintegrate.
This reduces the fighter's save vs magic from being a 6+ to being an 18+. On a d20. Fail and die immediately.
*That* is why mages are so power. *That* is why a mage can reduce a dragon to dust without much effort (though may very well lose all the loot). *That* is why Throne of Bhaal bosses are all immune to Time Stop (they will keep fighting when you do Time Stop, all you are doing is freezing your party). It's because mages at high levels have the spell slots to protect themself against harm (Stoneskin against melee attacks, Prot from magical weapons against melee attacks as well, spell immunity abjuration against dispeling it, improved invisibility so you can't target them with direct spells and for the AC boost, etc) and the spell slots to destroy their foes.
Heck, they don't even need to use disintegrate. Just do lower resistance and a few greater malions. Then throw a chaos spell and the fighters can't do anything. Toss a slow spell for shyts and giggles and they move like they are under water. He could even dire charm the fighter and turn him on his own party! And if, through all of that, the fighter is still standing? Unless the fighter has found an item that lets him have true sight (there are 2 in the game) the mage can quite easily go invisible and saunter off. With the fighter being unable to do anything about it.
You want to kill a mage? You either need another mage (to remove the spell protections) or an assassin/blackguard to poison the git, so he can't cast anything. Anything else at high levels is going to be dusted, unless the mage is held back by computer AI.
* 10% MR from one of the tears of bhaal (which is not for *fighters*, it is for any Charname)
* 10% MR from a necklace
* 5% MR from the Shield of the Lost or 5% from Shield of Fyrus Khal (aoe MR for party of 5%)
* 10% MR from the Flame of the North (2 handed sword)
* 5% MR from the Machine of Lum the Mad (if Charname does that in SoA)
* 20% from Human Flesh (if evil, and if your fighter is willing to wear leather armor)
* 10% Ring of Gax (forgot this one!)
Total: 60-65% magic resistance, if decked out in *everything* that provides magic resistance
Magic Resistance Items and Effects for Fighters in Throne of Bhaal
* 15% from Silver Dragon Scale (again, for evil fighters, this one is actual fullplate though)
Total: If upgrading to actual armor against something besides just mages, down to 55-60%
There is *nothing* else that provides magic resistance. Now, even if you had *all* of that...
1. Time Stop (Fighter frozen, can't do anything. Can't remove spell protections. Can't swing his sword. Can't do *anything*)
2. Improved Alacrity (no waiting to cast)
3. Lower Resistance (x2 if needed, each one takes away about 39% magic resistance)
4. Time Stop (Fighter is *still* frozen)
5. Greater Malison (reduce fighter saving throws)
6. Have fun making the fighter be confused/feared/blinded/charmed/etc)
There is a reason why people can and do solo the trilogy/black pits as a mage or a sorceror. I haven't seen anyone who has managed to do so as a fighter of any sort.
I personally play fighters. I tend not to use mages that much. It is tiring to use them at their full potential. But yes, they *are* much, much, much stronger than fighters. Mages can solo the entire trilogy. A mage used to his full potential can do whatever the heck he wants to a fighter who even has the best protection out there.
Speed + Elemental Damage = Dead Mages
Though you just mentioned using a thief. And that's the catch. You need to get to the Mage before they can cast:
I think my point stands.
Low levels: fighter is stronger
Mid levels: A competent fighter can beat the Mage, especially if he has the right equipment
High levels: A competent Mage should floor anyone except for very high level dual classes thieves who can chunk them in one go.
To be honest, if there was a PvP mode in BG, the Sorc and Mage would both get nerfed considerably anyway. So who knows what would happen?
Some boss fights, the boss gets to buff before any1 could even take a shot at it.
Other times certain bosses seemed to have an unlimited supply of certain capabilities
BG1 Sarevok = Would get annihilated
vs Anomen: it's cleric vs cleric but Anomen has 7 fighter levels, grandmastery, fat superior strength and HPs. No contest.
vs Keldorn: again, no contest really. Unlike a mage Viconia has no real way to protect herself from Keldorn's attacks or dispel magic. She'd die in no time. In fact, when Keldorn and Viconia fight in the game if they are in the same party, has anyone ever seen Viconia win? I bet Keldorn squashes her every time.
Irenicus vs Gorion.
Sarevok vs Melissan.
Gorion vs Melissan.
Viconia vs Anomen.
Viconia vs Keldon.
Imoen vs Jan.
Jahiera vs Cern.
Irenicus is a level 29 sorcerer with Mislead, Lower Resistance, Timestop, and a massive array of other spells at his disposal. Sarevok has literally nothing he can do against an invisible level 29 sorcerer in general, let alone one who stops time, disappears and then peppers him with magic missiles until he dies.
Melissan is a borderline goddess Cleric/Mage that's immune to invisiblity, has a permanent Robe of Vecna effect on her, and 90% MR.
Gorion is a scrub who forgets to set up contingencies and spell triggers, has no invisibility spell prepped and lets a fighter get into melee after getting dispelled by a BG1 mage.
Viconia is a weak drow with weak constitution, low strength, and is a single class cleric with Magic Resistance.
Anomen is a Fighter/Cleric who can get Grand Mastery, has a great strength and constitution, multiple APR, all the same buffs as Viconia gets except with the ability to make use of them, is immune to Viconia's Unholy Blight, and can reliably beat her to death while she can barely even get off a spell.
Keldorn is an unholy beast who, unless Viconia outlevels him far enough to turn him, can dispel every buff she has, beat her to death with his basic gear, and kills her with unstoppable magic damage every time she somehow manages to hit him.
Imoen is a human non-specialist mage with a few points in open locks and detect traps.
Jan is a fully realised Mage/Thief with specialist spell slots, full skill profession, a staff proficiency, an awesome backstab multiplier, more spell slots at every level and Jan Jansen's Flasher Master Bruiser Mates.
Jaheira is a druid that's likely to have just as much magical mojo as Cernd at any particular point, vastly more HLAs, more APR, deal more damage with better gear, have a better AC, and better saves for the fact that they're both covered in bees and running around screaming. There's a window at around 3e6-6e6 where Cernd has an advantage in terms of spellcasting, but this coincides with Jaheira being a fighter who can just stab his unarmoured ass to death with Whirlwind Attack anyway.
Whelp vs. Lachluger