Dispel VS Remove magic.

madmaximus

It seems like most of the stuff I read is about the efficacy of Dispel magic. I know the Inquisitor ability is extremely potent. But other than that remove magic seems like a better spell just by looking at the spell descriptions. Just wondering what you guys thought.

Osigold

Dispel Magic is more versatile, but it's also indiscriminate. Remove Magic is easier to use because you don't have to worry about removing beneficial effects from your own party, but you also can't use it to remove negate effects from your party should the need arise. Is that something you're likely to do, or would you have too much to lose because you tend to roll with a lot of magical buffs?

Remove Magic also has another potential downside, which is that it's an arcane spell (only). This is bad for two reasons: First, arcane spells tend to be more valuable, and using one on a dispelling task that can be carried out by divine casters may not be ideal. Second, wizards and sorcerers have slower level progression than clerics, and dispelling effects in this manner is more or less likely to be successful based on a comparison of caster levels. Remove Magic is therefore less likely to succeed than a Dispel Magic cast by a cleric of similar experience.

On the other hand, if you have a bard in your party then his caster level is likely to be the highest of all, and he could make excellent use of Remove Magic. If you've brought a bard then you're probably OK with using him, and his resources, for support jobs like this.

sarevok57

I've noticed as well with remove magic that sometimes it works without fail, like dragons for example, if they use remove magic on me, regardless of my level it seems to always get rid of all the beneficial effects that I have cast on myself

madmaximus

Ah i hadn't considered my priest being the primary caster of dispel magic. Good point.

Raduziel

If you want a good dispeller go for a Bard. He can use both Dispel and Remove Magic and his caster level grows very fast.

CamDawg

Osigold said:

Remove Magic is easier to use because you don't have to worry about removing beneficial effects from your own party, but you also can't use it to remove negate effects from your party should the need arise.

Losing party members for critical round(s) due to fear, hold, etc. is an easy way to lose battles. Being able to clear those, for my personal playing style, outweighs the negative side effects of losing my own buffs and/or clearing enemy negatives. It's also why Keldorn seems to always end up in my BG2 party.

sarevok57 said:

I've noticed as well with remove magic that sometimes it works without fail, like dragons for example, if they use remove magic on me, regardless of my level it seems to always get rid of all the beneficial effects that I have cast on myself

All dragons in the game are a minimum level of 23 so the dispel equation is heavily in their favor. For comparison, a level 23 mage needs 4.875M XP. Adding to the great points above about using non-mages, bards only need 2.86M, clerics 3.375M, and a level 12 inquisitor 1.2M.

sarevok57

CamDawg said:

Osigold said:

Remove Magic is easier to use because you don't have to worry about removing beneficial effects from your own party, but you also can't use it to remove negate effects from your party should the need arise.

Losing party members for critical round(s) due to fear, hold, etc. is an easy way to lose battles. Being able to clear those, for my personal playing style, outweighs the negative side effects of losing my own buffs and/or clearing enemy negatives. It's also why Keldorn seems to always end up in my BG2 party.

sarevok57 said:

I've noticed as well with remove magic that sometimes it works without fail, like dragons for example, if they use remove magic on me, regardless of my level it seems to always get rid of all the beneficial effects that I have cast on myself

All dragons in the game are a minimum level of 23 so the dispel equation is heavily in their favor. For comparison, a level 23 mage needs 4.875M XP. Adding to the great points above about using non-mages, bards only need 2.86M, clerics 3.375M, and a level 12 inquisitor 1.2M.

ah, but what happens when the dragon is level 30 and you are level 39 and his remove magic works without fail every time?

abizigal vs charname swashbuckler

Neverused

I... may be 100% mistaken here, but Dispel and Remove checks for the spell-casting level of the thing they're trying to dispel, right? And since all scrolls and potions cast at level 10 if I remember correctly... I'd try to see if it consistently dispels a level 39 Bard as well, cast from his own spellslots.

Or it checks the level of the creature it's trying to dispel. I'm not completely sure of this mechanic. @semiticgod ?

sarevok57

even if that were so, my cleric had to be around level 35, which would give it only a 1% chance of success to dispel it, but yet it was always able to dispel remove fear and protection from evil 10' radius without a hitch

semiticgoddess

@Neverused: It checks for the casting level of the original caster, not the target. A level 35 Chaotic Commands spell on a level 10 will take a level 31+ caster to dispel (DM and RM are bugged so that the 1% chance is actually zero).

@sarevok57: If a level 30 caster dispels a level 35 spell with a Remove/Dispel Magic spell, that's either a bug, very bad luck, or a non-standard Remove/Dispel Magic spell.

Dispel/Remove Magic always display the "Dispel Effects" message and the visual effect even if nothing gets dispelled.

lunar

Swashbucklers cast from scrolls thanks to uai. And spells directly cast from scrolls count as caster lvl 10, IIRC, independent of the character's level that is reading it. Thus Abazigal will dispel those buffs on a lvl 40 swashbuckler %100 of the time. Unless ofcourse you layer in a spell immunity:abjuration. But watch out, for the duration of the spell immunity will be equal to a lvl 10 mage cast! (short!)

A bard at lvl 40, buffed by his own castings (not scroll reading) should not be dispelled by a lvl 30 Abazigal.

Gotural

What @lunar said. Spells casted by scrolls have a caster level of 10, which is another reason why I don't think Kensai => Thief are that strong.

But it is also a good thing, as you can use scrolls in BG1 and they are very effective. You can shoot 5 Magic Missiles as a level 1 Mage with a scroll of Magic Missile for example.

elminster

Pretty sure scrolls cast in bg1/bgee are cast at level 6.