Slings for Archer! Archer for halflings!

Edvin

This is one of things that always bothered me.

According to D&D rules (practically all versions), Archer is one of the most popular class for halflings, because slings (and short swords) are one of their favorite weapons. Yet in BG, archers cannot (effectively) use slings and Halflings cannot be archers.

Why?

If gnome can not be mage, but can be illusionist, why Halfling cannot be Archer?
It's exactly the same principle!

sarevok57

it could be one of the "game balance" issues, halflings get really good saves, just like dwarves basically, and hence they fall into the restricted class group, if you really want a Halfling archer, you are going to have to use EE keeper and make one yourself

Aquadrizzt

This is easily fixable via mods, either by changing Archers to be able to achieve grandmastery in slings, or via a kit mod (which several people have made, try subtledoctor's Might and Guile for example) that adds a halfling "slinger" to the game.

Edvin

@Aquadrizzt
That's not what I thought, this is not mod request.

Slingshots are generally very rarely used weapon.
Good for mage (better then mele fight with staff) but useless for everyone else.
I'd like to see in the game, at least one class that can use them effectively.

And Halflings are VERY unpopular race.
Only 4 class, 1 multiclass and big restrictions on romances.
(They are also very small and too cute to be feared warriors)

Something like what I have proposed may increase their popularity.
They already did it with Dwarven defender and it worked.

sarevok57

Edvin said:

@Aquadrizzt
That's not what I thought, this is not mod request.

Slingshots are generally very rarely used weapon.
Good for mage (better then mele fight with staff) but useless for everyone else.
I'd like to see in the game, at least one class that can use them effectively.

And Halflings are VERY unpopular race.
Only 4 class, 1 multiclass and big restrictions on romances.
(They are also very small and too cute to be feared warriors)

Something like what I have proposed may increase their popularity.
They already did it with Dwarven defender and it worked.

im an extreme power gamer and I use slings all the time, you want them to kick butt? here is what you need to do:

be a human with 18 str/dex/wis

grow all the way to level 13 ( putting everything you can in sling)

dual class over to cleric

have your cleric hit level 14

use draw upon holy might and righteous magic

watch enemies die from your spit fire machine gun

I always give the sling to the cleric, since STR stacks with sling damage, they can be quite gruesome, if you have 25 STR with the +5 sling and +4 bullets with 5 proficiencies in sling, you can have sling bullets deal over 60 damage on critical hits, ( and that is from long range, no need to put your cleric in harms way when it isnt necessary) and sling bullets go up to +4 unlike arrow and bolts that only go to +3, and you might say, big deal, there are the no ammo required launchers, ah yes there may be, but are they dealing 30 damage a hit? I think not

slings indeed are quite powerful, you just need to know who to give them to and how to use them, they are EXCELLENT weapons for clerics, keeps them out of harms way, while they cast their heal spells in the back

Aquadrizzt

Viconia absolutely destroys with Slings for the very reasons that @sarevok57 listed. Slap some priest buffs on her and a gauntlets/girdle of giant strength and she just shreds things. And she doesn't even get the bonus attacks.

Edvin

@sarevok57
"Grow all the way to level 13 ( putting everything you can in sling), dual class over to cleric, have your cleric hit level 14."

Ehm, so you are very weak for loooooooooooooooooooooong time and then you have a few moments where you're strong? This is definitely not what I meant when I talked about "effective use". Moreover, it is absolutely useless in BG1 and SoD (and almost whole BG2). Definitely not worth it.

Dee

I think your Illusionist/Archer argument may be the wrong one to make. But it's an interesting line of thinking to compare the halfling-with-sling to an elf-with-longbow, which may be the more appropriate comparison. So let's break it down.

Archer gives the character the ability to grandmaster the weapon in question. That's no different from a Fighter, which is freely available to the halfling.

Slings don't have a base APR, which means they get to use their wielder's full APR. That means that a sling is exactly as potent in terms of APR as a crossbow, to which the Archer's benefits also apply.

Halflings get a +1 bonus to attacks with slings, which is equivalent to the elf's +1 bonus with longbows.

Slings benefit from their wielder's Strength score on damage rolls. This is different from both longbows and crossbows. Fortunately, the halfling race caps at Strength 17, but items can (easily?) boost the halfling's Strength to 19 or higher. This is already an acceptable concern for fighters, but fighters don't get the Archer's scaling bonus to attack and damage.

On the other hand, it's not much different from a Kensai wielding Crom Faeyr and having a Strength of 25. But that's a melee (not ranged) weapon.

So from a balance perspective, it's a bit of power creep, but not a lot. It's mostly a question of whether or not it makes sense to give the halfling access to the full Ranger gamut of abilities for the sake of giving them this one kit. Since halflings don't have access to the Ranger class to begin with, that's an important question to answer first.

To be clear, I'm not taking a stance either way. But that's my insight as a designer.

TheArtisan

Makes more sense to just create a halfling-exclusive fighter kit like the dwarven defender than to shoehorn them into the ranger class for no reason at all.

Edvin

@Artemius_I
That is good idea, but much more complicated.
Developer usually prefer solutions that are simple and effective.
I 100% support your solution, but I am a realist.

If they make separate kit for halflings, someone might also want Elven Bladesinger kit

[Deleted User]

The user and all related content has been deleted.

Edvin

@subtledoctor
I know, your Halfling Slinger is very well done.
But your Elven Bladesinger...

Did you ever hear about Josidiah Starym?
The most famous Elven Bladesinger in the world Forgotten realms?
Bladesinger who dual wield two short swords...

Grammarsalad

subtledoctor said:

@Edvin the Halfling Slinger and Elven Bladesinger are both in my mod.

As for the conundrum of letting halflings be rangers... I proposed once to *only* let halflings be rangers, and not fighters. Show me the halfling who can't sneak a little bit!

But players shot that down.

See, this is another reason to soft code the buttons: all halflings should be able to sneak. I win