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Can a mage turn his projected image into a true decent warrior?

On another thread, someone asked is the Tenser Transformation wouldn't be more interesting on a DD since it has higher hp and +5AC.

The question has been bugging me since that time, not for the DD itself, but for any mage: Tenser's Transformation is rather a crappy spell by itself, and having +5AC and more hit points doesn't change much that fact. It just face the fact that you could have a decent THAC0, your attack per rounds suck, you proefficiencies suck, and you are can't breach your enemy because you can't cast spells anymore.

But what if you add:
- Black Blade of Disaster, so you will attack with a +5 weapon with which you are supposed to have a Grand Master Proefficiency (+1 attack per round, +3 THACO, +5damage)
- Improved Haste that would double your attack per round (so 4 attacks... seen better, but for a pure spellcaster, that's not bad)
- The usual melee defenses spells
- Some contingencies
... add more importantly do that on a Project Image from yourself, so it turn to be fully fail-proof (your image is destroyed... you lost a spell, nothing more)

Is something decent could be expected from this?

Comments

  • PantalionPantalion Member Posts: 2,137
    1: Mastery doesn't give non fighters extra APR.
    2: Project Image can't attack.

    Want an immortal godtank, cast Stoneskins, Mirror Images, Fire Shield Red, Fire Shield Blue, in that order, then cast PfMW when in melee and just wait for everything to kill itself against you.
    Goturalluskansemiticgoddess
  • MoonheartMoonheart Member Posts: 520
    edited February 2016
    Aye, I'm an idiot, I forgot this limit for the Project Image. It could only work for simulacrum..

    Mastery doesn't give non fighter extra APR? even when their levels are turned into fighter levels by Tenser?
  • PantalionPantalion Member Posts: 2,137
    Tenser changes THAC0 only. (Un?)Fortunately nothing changes the mage's APR, since then mages would stomp mundanes even harder than they do already.

    It's still perfectly viable to turn into a Giant Spider for 4 APR, then sequencer your weapons back if you want, and with web you won't even need THAC0 to hit.
  • SpaceInvaderSpaceInvader Member Posts: 2,125
    edited March 2016
    snip

    cast MMM (5 ApR) or Energy Blades (10 ApR), use them all and you'll notice that your ApR is still 5/10 with melee weapons.

    Now cast whatever buffs you want (Stoneskin, DUHM, etc.), Black Blade of Disaster or Phantom Blade.

    (At this point cast Improved Haste if you previously used MMM, to reach 10 ApR)

    For last cast your Tenser's Transformation and there you go: a spellcaster with 10 ApR, high defensive buffs and a more than solid weapon.
    Post edited by Dee on
    luskanGoturalJuliusBorisov
  • luskanluskan Member Posts: 269
    edited March 2016

    snip

    cast MMM (5 ApR) or Energy Blades (10 ApR), use them all and you'll notice that your ApR is still 5/10 with melee weapons.

    Now cast whatever buffs you want (Stoneskin, DUHM, etc.), Black Blade of Disaster or Phantom Blade.

    (At this point cast Improved Haste if you previously used MMM, to reach 10 ApR)

    For last cast your Tenser's Transformation and there you go: a spellcaster with 10 ApR, high defensive buffs and a more than solid weapon.

    I believe this only works until you a) reload or b) swap weapons. It's hilarious to see a mage go crazy stabbing something with the Staff Spear at 5 APR. :smiley:
    Post edited by Dee on
  • semiticgoddesssemiticgoddess Member Posts: 14,903
    At least in vanilla, it was possible for a mage to get higher APR by wielding the Shadow Thief Dagger in the off hand, as it set your base APR to 2. I think EE changed that for some reason, which is unfortunate, because it was a really unique weapon, and it was hardly overpowered (it was nonmagical and didn't get any strength bonuses).

    In my first successful no-reload run of BG2, I dualed a Cleric of Lathander over to mage at level 11, and used Boon of Lathander to improve her APR. It worked especially well with Righteous Magic and Iron Golem form. This works with the Wand of Lightning trick.

    If you have Spell Revisions installed, Tenser's Transformation will increase your APR, but only if you have no fighter levels. Same goes for Holy Power. A level 12 mage gets an extra half attack per round; a level 13 mage gets a full extra attack per round. Dual wield with a dagger and add haste, and your single-classed mage can reach 4 APR. Not 6 APR, but 4, because in Spell Revisions, Improved Haste no longer doubles your APR; it just increases it by 1.
    [Deleted User]
  • lroumenlroumen Member Posts: 2,508
    I guess you should not forget to cast/gear sone strength enhancement as well as improved invisibility (for thac0 reasons) and potentially adding sources of luck (again for thac0).
  • PantalionPantalion Member Posts: 2,137

    Not 6 APR, but 4, because in Spell Revisions, Improved Haste no longer doubles your APR; it just increases it by 1.

    So.... was the name changed to "Regular Haste" then?
    SpaceInvader
  • MoonheartMoonheart Member Posts: 520
    I'm pretty sure you can also EEKeeper to give your mage 10 APR... but... well... hum... I should have perhaps precised: "without using cheats or bug exploits"
    To me, this is often obvious, so I forget to mention it.

    By the way, I do not understand why the Mage don't get an extra attack with BBoD. He's a Grand Master with it... so... why?
    I've read nothing in the class description or the core rules saying a mage is restricted to 1 APR whatever it does. It just doesn't have more than 1 by natural means.
  • ArunsunArunsun Member Posts: 1,592
    The extra APR that come with proficiency are clearly said to be for warriors only.
    The same applies to Haer'Dalis with his 2 pips in short swords or a swashbuckler with two pips in any melee weapon a thief can use: they do not get any extra APR.
  • PantalionPantalion Member Posts: 2,137
    Moonheart said:

    I'm pretty sure you can also EEKeeper to give your mage 10 APR... but... well... hum... I should have perhaps precised: "without using cheats or bug exploits"
    To me, this is often obvious, so I forget to mention it.

    By the way, I do not understand why the Mage don't get an extra attack with BBoD. He's a Grand Master with it... so... why?
    I've read nothing in the class description or the core rules saying a mage is restricted to 1 APR whatever it does. It just doesn't have more than 1 by natural means.

    Swashbucklers also do not gain 1/2 APR for specialisation. It's a Warrior only perk.
    semiticgoddess
  • SpaceInvaderSpaceInvader Member Posts: 2,125
    edited March 2016
    Moonheart said:

    I'm pretty sure you can also EEKeeper to give your mage 10 APR... but... well... hum... I should have perhaps precised: "without using cheats or bug exploits"
    To me, this is often obvious, so I forget to mention it.

    Cheats and exploits are totally different.
    There are plenty of exploits people commonly use (sonetimes without even knowing it) because of game imperfections.
    Moonheart said:

    By the way, I do not understand why the Mage don't get an extra attack with BBoD. He's a Grand Master with it... so... why?
    I've read nothing in the class description or the core rules saying a mage is restricted to 1 APR whatever it does. It just doesn't have more than 1 by natural means.

    Because before EE it was hard coded.
    I'm 99% sure it is now possible to give an ApR/level progression even to non-fighter classes.
    semiticgoddess
  • ArunsunArunsun Member Posts: 1,592
    Yup you cannot consider cheats and exploits as one same thing.
    We all have, I believe, used the tactic that consists in dragging one enemy at a time and keeping others out of sight range, at least when we first played the game. It's not quite like giving 25 to every stat and 5000hp to our character.
    semiticgoddess
  • MoonheartMoonheart Member Posts: 520
    edited March 2016
    Mmm... where did I write they are one same thing? I'm pretty sure I didn't.
  • lunarlunar Member Posts: 3,460
    Black Blade of Disaster is a very useful weapon, even in the hands of a mage with Tenser. However, mage/thieves actually make the spell hugely powerful and imba with mislead+backstab shenenigans. In my Ascension battle, Imoen prebuffed with black blade and improved haste, opened the fight with time stop, and under mislead, proceeded to do tons of damage to Illasera, killing her and actually badly wounding Gromnir, down to near death state, as an opener in the battle. And she had only like, x2 or x3 backstab modifier. A better backstabber like Jan or Hexxat (with uai, use scrolls) would have been even more awesome.
    JuliusBorisovsemiticgoddess
  • MoonheartMoonheart Member Posts: 520
    Backstab is marvelous... when the ennemies are vulnerable to it.
    One of the reason why the Kensai is saw superior is that his kai ability is like a backstab x2 that works against everyone.
    lunar
  • ArunsunArunsun Member Posts: 1,592
    Moonheart said:

    Mmm... where did I write they are one same thing? I'm pretty sure I didn't.

    Yes you did.
    Moonheart said:

    I'm pretty sure you can also EEKeeper to give your mage 10 APR... but... well... hum... I should have perhaps precised: "without using cheats or bug exploits"
    To me, this is often obvious, so I forget to mention it.

    Right here, answering a post telling you of a bug that gives extra APR. You answer that you could cheat them in instead. And I was merely saying that an in-game bug and file editing are not on the same scale of "cheating", and took an example of common exploit we all have used.

    Now we could discuss all day about the fact you did not say clearly that bug exploit is the same as file editing, I know from a couple of other threads you hardly ever give up something when you *think* you are right on it, but that would not be very interesting :wink:
  • lunarlunar Member Posts: 3,460
    Black blade is a scary weapon for backstab as its base damage is very good, that base damage is multiplied by the backstab modifier. If I am not mistaken, base damage is 2d12 plus 5 for grandmastery, and for kensais or assasins there is further damage bonus, that is multiplied by backstab modifier and str bonus is added lastly. Only iron golem form has better base damage (4-40, IIRC) but blade is cooler and more stylish.

    An assasin will do (2-24)+5 for grandmastery, +1 for kit bonus, 8-30 damage per hit. With x7 backstab that is 56-210 damage. Add something like +10 damage from giant str on top of that. Thus, an assasin does 66-220 damage with a black blade backstab, plus poison from ability, plus disintegrate chance, plus level drain chance.

    A kensai dualled to thief, for about +4 base damage bonus, plus +5 grand mastery bonus, will do...11-33 damage per normal strike. With x5 backstab, it is 55-165 damage. With a kai it is straight 165 damage, with str damage on top, for about +10 more damage=175 damage per backstab. And under a mislead and improved haste, such character can do 3-4 kai backstabs easily.

    On a lucky critical hit, base damage is further doubled, for: 122-430 damage for assasin, straight 340 for kensai.
    You may try stacking improved bard song buffs for even more ridiculous damage output.

    Numbers may be wrong a bit, but the power is there.
    Skatan
  • MoonheartMoonheart Member Posts: 520
    edited March 2016
    That's out of topic, @lunar. The topic is about pure spellcasters, not mage+thief hybrids
    Arunsun said:

    Right here, answering a post telling you of a bug that gives extra APR. You answer that you could cheat them in instead. And I was merely saying that an in-game bug and file editing are not on the same scale of "cheating", and took an example of common exploit we all have used.

    I see your misunderstanding.

    My sentence was not impliying both are the same, but just that once you're gone to the extent to exploit such an obvious bug than the sword-wielding spider, you've past over what it is, for me, a "fair" game, and could litteraly make use EEKeeper, for what it make it worse, I would not care.

    It's off-limit for my own sensibility if I intent to make a "non-cheated game", even if it's not a cheat by itself.

    I do not mind, naturaly, if your sensibility is different. Everyone has his own. Just.. I'm always surprised when I see people answer me with evaluations that are based on bug exploits, because it is just so naturaly off-limit for me, that I never think to specify in the topic that I exclude such cases of my question.

    Now, IA exploit is a different matter. IA limits is not a bug. And having some ennemies stopping to run when they can see where you're gone can make some sense... I must say I avoid to use that too much too, but that not as off-limits than putting swords in the... "hands" of a spider.
  • lunarlunar Member Posts: 3,460
    Oops, sorry. You are right.
  • semiticgoddesssemiticgoddess Member Posts: 14,903
    @Pantalion: Spell Revisions makes Haste single-target and adds some combat bonuses; Improved Haste is the area effect version. It's like IWD2.
    Pantalion
  • MoonheartMoonheart Member Posts: 520
    I know I know, I just seek for something idiot.
    That's just that I like gishes, but I hate the concept of "spell preparation"... sigh, I wish I could multiclass a sorcerer without cheating
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