A "safe rest" playthrough... any ideas?
Moonheart
Member Posts: 520
[Edit: Disclaimer:
I add this little comment to say that the following idea is nothing like an attempt to try to make other play differently.
Everyone plays this great game the way he likes to. There is no judgement or criticism about the usual way of playing in the following topic... Because there is naturaly nothing wrong about prefering to rest anywhere and anytime the game allows it.
This topic is a mere question about faisaibility of a little challenge that only concern my and only my use of the game. All my apologies to people who could have think I was doing a pledge about their way to play it, and felt they needed to defend it against me.
I've removed everything that I could think like possibly could by interpreted this way in my post on this very thread]
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I'm wondering if it would be possible to make a "safe rest" playthrough.
(auto-censorship)
- You can only rest in an area once it has been cleared of every foe (supposedly, you will never be able to sleep for 8 hours in a place where ennemies lurks)
- You can only rest once in an area, except for taverns/inns/owned strongholds (supposedly, if it's a enemy place, if you stay more than 8h idling about, new ennemies would come and prevent you to rest anymore)
- What counts for an "area" is any place that you can't leave with only one of your party members (aka "You must gather your party before venturing forth")
- Wish: Rest can only be used once per area (supposedly, if you keep wishing about that, the djinni is going to be mad and just turn your wish into something very uggly...)
The goal is to make the "once per day" more closer to what the balance of D&D is supposed to be.
Now... I don't have enough experience to figure the faisability of this. Or how to make a suited party... so, any ideas?
I add this little comment to say that the following idea is nothing like an attempt to try to make other play differently.
Everyone plays this great game the way he likes to. There is no judgement or criticism about the usual way of playing in the following topic... Because there is naturaly nothing wrong about prefering to rest anywhere and anytime the game allows it.
This topic is a mere question about faisaibility of a little challenge that only concern my and only my use of the game. All my apologies to people who could have think I was doing a pledge about their way to play it, and felt they needed to defend it against me.
I've removed everything that I could think like possibly could by interpreted this way in my post on this very thread]
------------------------------------------------------------------
I'm wondering if it would be possible to make a "safe rest" playthrough.
(auto-censorship)
- You can only rest in an area once it has been cleared of every foe (supposedly, you will never be able to sleep for 8 hours in a place where ennemies lurks)
- You can only rest once in an area, except for taverns/inns/owned strongholds (supposedly, if it's a enemy place, if you stay more than 8h idling about, new ennemies would come and prevent you to rest anymore)
- What counts for an "area" is any place that you can't leave with only one of your party members (aka "You must gather your party before venturing forth")
- Wish: Rest can only be used once per area (supposedly, if you keep wishing about that, the djinni is going to be mad and just turn your wish into something very uggly...)
The goal is to make the "once per day" more closer to what the balance of D&D is supposed to be.
Now... I don't have enough experience to figure the faisability of this. Or how to make a suited party... so, any ideas?
Post edited by Moonheart on
3
Comments
So, go for it, with the rules you've mentioned. It should be fun. And share your experience with us.
And mind you, if we were real adventureres, and had a chance to reactivate all our spells and abilites, I would vote for leaving the dungeon when needed to return to the inn and then come back stronger to be able to survive.
I actually like to use very magic heavy parties as well, so a lot of my game is managing spell usage across my party over the course of a long dungeon.
I don't know if it's a "good" party for what you are proposing, but I've done this on two parties:
F/M Charname, Anomen, Jaheira, Aerie, Yoshimo/Imoen and Minsc.
Kensai/Mage Charname, Anomen, Aerie, Yoshimo/Imoen, Keldorn and Neera.
A bit more detail on my personal "realistic rest rules", the guiding principle of which is that "I rest when it makes sense to, not when I need to for metagame reasons".
1) I often rest at the end of a journey, even if I have no need to.
2) I try to rest at night as much as possible.
3) I rest before venturing into a dungeon, for both roleplay and gaming reasons.
4) I also make a clear distinction between "active hostile dungeon" and "passive dungeon", which determines if I rest mid-dungeon:
4a)
Active hostile dungeons are those with sentient defenders who will realistically respond to your incursion and overwhelm you if you were dumb enough to randomly sleep for 8 hrs in the middle of your assault. For example the Cloakwood Mines in BG1 and Sendai's Enclave in ToB. For these dungeons I try to do the entire thing without rest, and often end up heavily relying on potions, wands and strength of sword arms to carry my depleted spellcasters through it.
4b)
Passive dungeons are those that are infested with dangerous monsters, but aren't necessarily sentient or organised... the monsters are just there, if you disturb them, they will attack you, but there is no leadership organising a response to overwhelm you. I do rest in the middle of these dungeons, although I try to do at least one full level per rest. The biggest examples of these are Watcher's Keep and Durlag's Tower, which would be nigh-impossible to do without rest anyway.
Clerics are for domination, not for healing. - If you need healing, rob Ribald of his ring and swap it around, or use potions (and yes, buy potions, particularly antidotes and "of healths", that's what they're for). Using the cleric to supply buffs, damage and crowd control means you take less damage than you'd heal for the same number of spells as a healbot.
Short term buffs are for bosses. - You generally want to be devoting maybe 1-3 spell slots per combat, 1 of your highest level. Mirror Images are gloriously powerful, but they're for saving the party from a wipe or taking on the boss, not spending a spell on every fight.
Word of Recall, Limited Wish and Project Image are your magic users' key powers. - If you have Limited Wish, you have an extra level 1-4 spell per party member with none of the gamble or cheese of actual wish. Word of Recall? Replenish two important buffs. Project Image? Then you also have Limited Wish and a bunch of free spells, go nuts.
Scout. - 99% of encounters cannot detect a careful thief, and scouting means both identifying key targets to make your life easier and being able to deal with the encounter more efficiently.
Don't be afraid to nova - If it's a tough nasty enemy then treating them like one is going to get you killed a whole lot less often than trying to beat the fight with sleep spell. Likewise, if a group is about to start wrecking your party if things went south? Drop every spell, unleash those once a day items you've been hoarding, and so on. Then just leave, and come back on a day when your tank feels like not getting hit by thirty odd critical hits in a row. Especially if that tank is you.
Wands. Wands everywhere. Charge one up to fifty charges and use it liberally. They outright replace a vast majority of damage dealing spells giving you more spell slots to take more flexible spells. Rods of Rez only charge up to ten, but they still saving dozens of spell slots you could otherwise be wasting on things like Heal and Raise Dead.
Items that give equipped resistances are precious, equip them liberally and use whoever's immune to attract the attention of those things that like to dish it out. Consider advancing to Chapter 3 early, it's just like Chapter 2 except you're immune to level drain and silence.
Enjoy your run!
Resting in dungeons makes no sense. Resting in the city is my benchmark. I sleep at least once per 24 hours to simulate day/night rhythm.
I always cast a lot from scroll and use many potions; that means my spells do not deplete very quickly in dungeons.
The game becomes much more fun. And hard. If you throw a "no-reload" in top of that you'll really have a challenge to deal with.
I always thought it was dumb to rest in dungeons, especially places like Firkraag's lair. Obviously, during the 8 HOURS of rest (let alone more), they'd call for reinforcements, fortify themselves better, send out patrols to find you, etc.
The same could be said about the Shade Lord's temple. He'd just use this time to summon more shades and figure something out to make your assault more difficult.
I don't even know how you'd be expected to rest in a place like the Planar Prison.
I like the SCS version of Abazigal's lair for those reasons - after advancing for a bit, you have to go back to Amkethran to get some rope. When you return, there are a couple of dragons waiting for you. After finding out what happened, Abazigal clearly was intelligent enough to strengthen his defences. That makes sense!
In some other cases, resting just doesn't feel sensible for time pressure reasons. I really don't think Nalia, knowing that her father might still be alive somewhere down in the cellars, would agree to just rest for a couple of hours (or days!), instead of pushing further to save him.
I never ever rest in Irenicus' dungeon either - you're supposed to use the chaos of the ongoing battle to make a quick escape, not to sleep for 8+ HOURS! It makes no sense. There's really no reason to rest there anyway, unless you're playing with full out Tactics version of it.
The situation is different in a couple of places - for example, the Planar Sphere before defeating Lavok. There seems to be no rush and you can use the room with the knights to rest in - kind of like you can ask people to watch over you while you rest in Icewind Dale. Especially when you do it before opening another section of the Sphere - like the moment before you assemble the golem.
However, after defeating Lavok, if you're willing to help him, there's the time pressure again. Though, I guess it can be funny - you have Lavok, trying to hold on to his life, begging you to hurry up so he can see the sky before dying and what do you do? Rest for a freakin' week. And he somehow fights off his impending death for just long enough to see that dang sky!
I see that I view the matter quite similarly to Heindrich, especially the part about active and passive dungeons, though I've never made such a distinction for myself.
In my opinion, playing like that is better for gameplay reasons, too. What's difficult about just dumping your whole spellbook on your enemies every fight? If you have 100% of your resources available every time, there's just no challenge in most cases. Managing your resources to last through more fights is fun.
Like I said, I don't have a strict set of rules, quite often I just try to go as long as I can before resting - finding ways to beat encounters with whatever I have left in my spellbooks. Using those meager remaining few spells to their fullest is something I find fun.
Of course, depending on your mod setup and experience with the game, sometimes you might have to give yourself a break every once in a while and rest in a dungeon anyway. There's quite a few fights in mods that expect you to have the necessary tools/resources available. Just use your discretion and you'll be fine.
I suppose from an RP perspective you could always find somewhere out of the way and have your thief setup some traps at the entrance. This way you're kept safe while resting in a hostile environment.
I don't disagree with you in general, I merely think it is a matter of when, not if. From a RP perspective, there is nothing wrong with resting there after finishing off the majority of the residents.
Resting in the Planar Prison seems to be even less of a RP conflict to me. It is a prison after all, and the jailers seem to be very confident of its safety(and their own abilities).
But in general, I share your approach, and that of the others here. I also don't rest more than once per day, I only rest when it seems halfways plausible, and I, too, take enjoyment in making do with what is left in my spellbooks.
It isn't difficult to pull off anyway, as long as you ensure that you enter a location, when your power level is appropriate, and not before.
This was for dungeon crawls against an ad-hoc collection of monsters. A dungeon with organized defenders is more of a commando raid than a dungeon crawl.
We have a really good atmosphere on this board because we aren't too militant about off-topic post and we generally try to just respect people's right to express an opinion.
I'm pretty sure that it's just innocent enthusiasm on your part @Moonheart but occasionally you seem to be quite confrontational in the way you respond to people.
It'd be very sad if @OlvynChuru was scared away from contributing because they felt that they weren't being respected.
This also doesn't really apply to the so-called "active" dungeon. You can safely assume in active type dungeon that you would never be able to rest interrupted, or that the dungeon would at least refill with reinforcements in cases where it made sense (many listed above). In those cases, I don't think you could legitimately rest in a believable manner at all. Even leaving the dungeon to rest doesn't fix the RP issues since the dungeons don't refill even when they should.
*Use a lot of warrior characters, since they don't need to worry about running out of spells.
*Give regeneration items to whoever tends to take a lot of damage.
*Have spellcasters use spells that last a long time.
I rest whenever my mages are low on spells because what's the point of a mage that can't cast spells? What's the fun in having your spell-less pure mage whack enemies with a staff all day?
Irenicus' dungeon: Portal room with Yoshimo seems like a fairly safe location to try to rest. Plus, dialogue from Imoen, so props there.
Umar Hills: I actually used this one, but the area where you take off the sun gem from the pillar to pass the doors. Rest in that room before taking the gem; you can't be assaulted by shadows in that room anyhow.
Trademeet grove: Honestly short enough on vanilla that you can get away with doing this in one shot. Unless you run out of fire spells with no fire weapons... Then you're just kind of hosed. Retreat to the town to rest, I suppose. Alternatively, find secluded corner of the map and rest invisibly.
Planar Prison: One of the sucky-hole-blobs. Set a watch around the only entrance, even if the game actually prohibits a rest there... Also short enough that it's possible to do it no rest, at least vanilla.
Firkraag's dungeon: Wolfwere area comes with its own beds all ready for you and a single entrance to guard. Alternatively, the area with the Orc Archers is a decent spot.
Unseeing Eye: No. Just no. Rest as many times as necessary to blow up the beholders from offscreen, or have the Shield of Baldarun, or die.
D'Arnese keep: Back outside to the guard tent, I suppose, with the reasoning that dying yourselves won't help Nalia's father either.
Vampires: No excuse, no rest.
I feel like I'm missing one or two... But I see no reason that these areas can't be done with these rest restraints, except the Unseeing Eye's lair and the Beholder lair in the Underdark... (Sorry @KidCarnival for my anti-Beholder sentiments!)
I Always play very limited resting, I also play with SCS (not on max difficulties though with pretty much all the optional stuff turned on, improved Everything, no Arrows of dispelling, Vecna and cloak of mirroring in ToB, shield of Balduran gone) on core. I also play no-reload.
I feel that limited resting makes the game much more alive. And even more so much more tactical. You just dont throw around secret Words and breaches like there is no tomorrow, because you might need em in the next fight instead! I would never go back to rest whenever a mage runs low on essential spells.
I try to find mages that can contribute with other stuff too, I try not to dual since I feel it is implemented horribly bad. With this setup Jaheira really shines (PLAGUE, summons, melee ability with a str belt), so does Jan (thief needs and debuffs) so they are two of my core members. Pure fighters are bad (well Korgan is pretty awesome, but he is evil so never gets to tag along), but then I guess they Always are. Reduced party size REALLY helps with getting access to game changing spells earlier.
I am not much of an RPer really but this is how I feel resting makes sense in the early game:
Irenicus dungeon: No never. Just lol.
Unseeing Eye: No never, unless you finish a part of the quest and go to an inn (which I never do).
Umar: No.
Windspear: No, makes this a high level quest since it would be very hard to do early.
Trademeet: No, mostly because it's not needed.
De'Arnise: No, never, rest outside Before entering.
Bodhis lair: No, never.
After the early game you're generally powerful enough to get by with items and game changing spells when you need them. I would however avoid Project image and wish resting since that's basically the same as resting any time you want, even during fights!
It's fully possible to play this way. I am definately not the most experienced player out there. I also avoid all kinds of cheese/cheats (I know, I know, can't agree on what's what and all that) since I feel they make the game less fun and "realistic", the only cheat/cheese (same caveat) I use is to sell and buy back the wand of spell striking from Neeras quest (bought from merchant). This is because when liches (lichii?) starts to pop up Before you've got access to high level spells you're pretty much toast imho unless you try to cheese them (send in summons to deplete their spells etc etc) and I prefer to fight them straight up, you can of course play any way you want but I feel that this is one of the very many tactics that just would not work with better game mechanics (I send u a skeleton warrior, u send me teleported planetars and gated fiends that see through invis etc etc..)
Sorry for wall of text.
PS. Party setup, mine right now is charname dwarven F/C, Jan, Jaheira, gonna add Nalia when she gets level 6 spells (how much exp do I need for that? Somewhere around 800k?) and Imoen because I feel horrible when I leave her behind. DS.
Summary: You rock, limited resting is where it's at!