The problem, the reason why the conversation gets sidetracked to "use mods" is that people can't clarify their requests and agree on some practical issues. In fact what people want isn't fully reproduced by any mod. The long standing request is really about a tiny bit of balancing, not a rework of the class, which is what mods generally do. If members posting on this thread, all explicitly agreed on these two pages that *a single* lvl1 or lvl2 offensive spell added to the Druid's repertoire (which is all that's really needed) would be a beneficial change and expressed a desire that the developers make the change, the devs would do it in an instant.
The mod excuse is a cop-out for developers. The simple fact is that druids should've been buffed before both EEs came out.
If you ever hear someone from Beamdog saying that modders can do something that Beamdog won't do, it's for one of two reasons: 1) The feature you're asking for is one that will take time to design, implement, test, and balance properly, so if it comes it won't be immediate. 2) The feature you're asking for makes a significant change to the overall design of the game, and is one that Beamdog isn't prepared to make right now.
In both cases, talking to modders about what you want is a way to get it faster and with more fine tuning to your personal tastes. We're not saying "We don't want to do the work; go do it yourself." We're saying, "We haven't decided yet if this is a thing we want or can afford to spend time on, but if you really feel strongly about this feature, there's a wealth of resources out there to help you create it yourself if you're interested."
If people are going to use balancing issues as another excuse, then why were arcane spells from BG2 lazily imported into IWDEE? Surely it's more of a game breaker that way around than it is to put a few IWD spells into the BG series. I would really like to try and understand that line of thinking, because it doesn't make any sense to me.
I don't remember the exact number of spells that were brought over from BG to IWD, but it's a much smaller number than would be brought over from IWD to BG (compare "a few dozen" to "more than a hundred"). And, again, doing so is time-intensive; the process took months of development time for IWD:EE to make sure we were using and accounting for them correctly in enemy scripts, and to make sure that they didn't ruin the game's challenge.
This isn't to say that we won't ever port IWD spells to BG, but that's why it's not an automatic decision on our part.
Anyway, that's all I wanted to clear up. Carry on!
Beamdog added 5 new kits and now a brand new class! Now let me get this straight - aside from your politle chatter, and mistake me if I'm wrong, ya'll saying you can't/won't tweek or add a few druid spells in fear of meta changes!!!?
And still no Harper kit!? IMO Jahiera's Harper Call and the FAST (even though the slow version makes more RP sense) cast Stoneskin, and Jahiera's great story line was the balance for the druids - but that was only for one character and Stoneskin got nerfed.
Let's talk about "The Beamdog Balance"
... "There is a Beamdog Balance!?"
Done talking about the Beamdog Balance, as I could throw many stones at their class kit additions.
Beamdog added 5 new kits and now a brand new class! Now let me get this straight - aside from your politle chatter, and mistake me if I'm wrong, ya'll saying you can't/won't tweek or add a few druid spells in fear of meta changes!!!?
Now, now, let's be fair. What Dee is saying is that 'porting a couple of spells over' is not a trivial thing. Beyond balance issues, one needs play testing and QA. (Consider how long it is taking to port Spell Revisions to EE.)
I'm sure adding a handful of spells to the Druid line is, in fact, possible. But "possible" is not the same thing as "trivial".
Man, I know what it is like to side with the underdogs and that's where it is at but some peeps here have found the smallest reasons possible to say the Druid spells are fine! And that may be so but not compared to the cleric.
I just rechecked the SoD announcement video from last year, and Jaheira DID have extra spells in her spellbook then, so I wasn't crazy when I said I'd spotted her with an extra level 2 spell!
She got Chant for level 2 (pictured), Sanctuary for level 1 and Glyph of Warding for level 3. Granted they aren't the IWD:EE spells I wanted, only some extra cleric spells. But even that would've improved the situation a little. With Chant there'd be a level 2 spell I might actually use sometimes!
Hmmm. I always found the spell selection of druids to be fine. Slow poison, flame blade, resist fire cold, entangle, bless, charm person or mammal... sure not powerhouse spells but nothing wrong with them. Goodberry could heal more though.
@rorikon Those were bugs. You can check the open beta of 2.0 patches if you want. So, there're no these additional cleric spells you mentioned for druids in the latest build.
Hmmm. I always found the spell selection of druids to be fine. Slow poison, flame blade, resist fire cold, entangle, bless, charm person or mammal... sure not powerhouse spells but nothing wrong with them. Goodberry could heal more though.
Okay then they should just fix goodbery. Make it heal 3 hp and the number of created berries scales with level.
You can still plan to install iwdification mod and add some usefull spell to druide (Like a little heal, alicorn lance..)
I tried that, most of added druid spells didn't work or didn't work as described. Only good thing about that mod is new bard songs, those seemed to work.
We need better druid spells, I am really sad and a bit angry SoD was not able to add some. This has been asked for years.
Personally I always go to Barkskin with my druids.
I agree that the Druid's spell list could use some love. It's a question of how and what kind of love, and then a matter of designing, implementing, and testing that love.
You can't hurry love, I guess is what I'm saying. But love will find a way.
Yes, I'm cognizant that D&D started with 3 booklets in the woodgrain/white box that was released in '74 (double checks personal copies) which included only 3 character classes; Fighting-Man, Magic-Use and Cleric; no Druid or even Thief. The Druid was introduced as NPC in Supplement I: Greyhawk and later as a full PC class in Supplement III: Eldritch Wizardry. I am also aware that the Druid was re-described in the 1E AD&D Players Handbook and then expanded again with the Hierophant abilities in Unearth Arcana. What does any of this have to due which my point that 2E Druids don't have as limited as a spell list as others have seem to imply in this thread?
There was a fairly extensive list of Druid spells in the 1st edition PHB.
1st-level spells: Animal friendship, ceremony, detect balance, detect magic, detect poison, detect snares and pits, entangle, faerie fire, invisibility to animals, locate animals, pass without trace, precipitation, predict weather, purify water, shillelagh, speak with animals.
2nd-level spells: Barkskin, charm person or mammal, create water, cure light wounds, feign death, fire trap, flame blade, goodberry, heat metal, locate plants, obscurement, produce flame, reflecting pool, slow poison, trip, warp wood.
3rd-level spells: Call lightning, cloudburst, cure disease, hold animal, know alignment, neutralize poison, plant growth, protection from fire, pyrotechnics, snare, spike growth, starshine, stone shape, summon insects, tree, water breathing.
4th-level spells: Animal summoning I, call woodland beings, control temperature, 10' radius, cure serious wounds, dispel magic, hallucinatory forest, hold plant, plant door, produce fire, protection from lightning, repel insects, speak with plants.
5th-level spells: Animal growth, animal summoning II, anti-plant shell, commune with nature, control winds, insect plague, moonbeam, pass plant, spike stones, sticks to snakes, transmute rock to mud, wall of fire.
6th-level spells: Animal summoning III, anti-animal shell, conjure fire elemental, cure critical wounds, feeblemind, fire seeds, liveoak, transport via plants, transmute water to dust, turn wood, wall of thorns, weather summoning.
7th-level spells: Animate rock, changestaff, chariot of sustarre, confusion, conjure earth elemental, control weather, creeping doom, finger of death, fire storm, reincarnate, sunray, transmute metal to wood.
Goodberries: for when Cure Light Wounds is too powerful, too low-level, and too fast. Seriously that spell is almost as bad as Infravision.
Regarding the point about porting spells over being difficult, how difficult is it to integrate components of existing mods? I don't mean that in an accusatory way, I'm actually seriously asking. Because we do have IWDification, which adds a lot of new spells, and in particular some very nice lower-level druid spells. I would *think* that it wouldn't be too difficult for Beamdog to integrate those features, but I'm not a game dev, so I could be very much mistaken on that front.
And honestly, the mod exists, so it's no skin off my back either way.
The more I delve into the issue, the more I realize how right it is that adding spells is not a trivial issue.
Just adding the spells is itself simple. But, the bigger issue, even beyond playtesting, is AI. I want enemies to be able to deal with my newly added spells. If I add a spell that makes its caster immune to all ranged weapons, I need the bad guys to change strategy when they 'notice'that their arrows of biting, or whatever, are having no effect. At the least, they should target someone else. Maybe a mage sound try to dispel. Also, enemy mages/druids/whatever need to be able to use these spells, where appropriate. How many enemies are there that might face or use said spell? Well, you need to figure that out as well.
So yeah, I am starting to really 'get it'. And, while I absolutely will add all iwd spells to the game in one or more mods, I really do now hope that beamdog does it because that is going to be a pita!
Personally I always go to Barkskin with my druids.
I agree that the Druid's spell list could use some love. It's a question of how and what kind of love, and then a matter of designing, implementing, and testing that love.
You can't hurry love, I guess is what I'm saying. But love will find a way.
What were we talking about?
Can't help myself, but: Video removed, hilarious as it is.
Personally I always go to Barkskin with my druids.
I agree that the Druid's spell list could use some love. It's a question of how and what kind of love, and then a matter of designing, implementing, and testing that love.
You can't hurry love, I guess is what I'm saying. But love will find a way.
What were we talking about?
It's hard really talking about hurrying the love for the druids, when the first BG:EE came out in 2012. Druids always were lacking spells, and in my opinion - Enhancing the game should have addressed that from the start. Since the premiere of original Icewind Dale druids are my favorite class, it's a shame I can't really enjoy them as much in the "sister" game.
Personally I always go to Barkskin with my druids.
I agree that the Druid's spell list could use some love. It's a question of how and what kind of love, and then a matter of designing, implementing, and testing that love.
You can't hurry love, I guess is what I'm saying. But love will find a way.
What were we talking about?
Can't help myself, but: Video removed, hilarious as it is.
(some of the mimes may not by PG-13)
You're totally right, some of those mimes aren't PG-13. (In the future, you can totally just PM me a link to the video if you think it's inappropriate, but the public forums have to remain somewhat clean for the kiddos.)
Comments
basically that's quicker access to lvl7 spells but slower access to spells of a lower level.
This isn't to say that we won't ever port IWD spells to BG, but that's why it's not an automatic decision on our part.
Anyway, that's all I wanted to clear up. Carry on!
Beamdog added 5 new kits and now a brand new class! Now let me get this straight - aside from your politle chatter, and mistake me if I'm wrong, ya'll saying you can't/won't tweek or add a few druid spells in fear of meta changes!!!?
And still no Harper kit!? IMO Jahiera's Harper Call and the FAST (even though the slow version makes more RP sense) cast Stoneskin, and Jahiera's great story line was the balance for the druids - but that was only for one character and Stoneskin got nerfed.
Let's talk about "The Beamdog Balance"
... "There is a Beamdog Balance!?"
Done talking about the Beamdog Balance, as I could throw many stones at their class kit additions.
What Dee is saying is that 'porting a couple of spells over' is not a trivial thing. Beyond balance issues, one needs play testing and QA. (Consider how long it is taking to port Spell Revisions to EE.)
I'm sure adding a handful of spells to the Druid line is, in fact, possible. But "possible" is not the same thing as "trivial".
She got Chant for level 2 (pictured), Sanctuary for level 1 and Glyph of Warding for level 3. Granted they aren't the IWD:EE spells I wanted, only some extra cleric spells. But even that would've improved the situation a little. With Chant there'd be a level 2 spell I might actually use sometimes!
We need better druid spells, I am really sad and a bit angry SoD was not able to add some. This has been asked for years.
Irenicus: "You are but a gnat compared to me!"
Charname: "But I have Goodberries
Irenicus: "Bahahahaha rofl."
Charname:
I agree that the Druid's spell list could use some love. It's a question of how and what kind of love, and then a matter of designing, implementing, and testing that love.
You can't hurry love, I guess is what I'm saying. But love will find a way.
What were we talking about?
love
what is love?
goodberries
when do we want it?
now
how do we want it?
threehitpointsnumberofberriesscaleswithlevel
who's gonna do it?
you
who's gonna test it?
testers
what do we want?
lo...
2nd-level spells: Barkskin, charm person or mammal, create water, cure light wounds, feign death, fire trap, flame blade, goodberry, heat metal, locate plants, obscurement, produce flame, reflecting pool, slow poison, trip, warp wood.
3rd-level spells: Call lightning, cloudburst, cure disease, hold animal, know alignment, neutralize poison, plant growth, protection from fire, pyrotechnics, snare, spike growth, starshine, stone shape, summon insects, tree, water breathing.
4th-level spells: Animal summoning I, call woodland beings, control temperature, 10' radius, cure serious wounds, dispel magic, hallucinatory forest, hold plant, plant door, produce fire, protection from lightning, repel insects, speak with plants.
5th-level spells: Animal growth, animal summoning II, anti-plant shell, commune with nature, control winds, insect plague, moonbeam, pass plant, spike stones, sticks to snakes, transmute rock to mud, wall of fire.
6th-level spells: Animal summoning III, anti-animal shell, conjure fire elemental, cure critical wounds, feeblemind, fire seeds, liveoak, transport via plants, transmute water to dust, turn wood, wall of thorns, weather summoning.
7th-level spells: Animate rock, changestaff, chariot of sustarre, confusion, conjure earth elemental, control weather, creeping doom, finger of death, fire storm, reincarnate, sunray, transmute metal to wood.
2nd level: ... heat metal ...
Oh man, I remember that one. That's a wonderful and nasty spell for all those metal armor wearing nature-haters.
Regarding the point about porting spells over being difficult, how difficult is it to integrate components of existing mods? I don't mean that in an accusatory way, I'm actually seriously asking. Because we do have IWDification, which adds a lot of new spells, and in particular some very nice lower-level druid spells. I would *think* that it wouldn't be too difficult for Beamdog to integrate those features, but I'm not a game dev, so I could be very much mistaken on that front.
And honestly, the mod exists, so it's no skin off my back either way.
Be like "These aren't the Druids you are looking for."
But I will always have love for Jahiera.
Just adding the spells is itself simple. But, the bigger issue, even beyond playtesting, is AI. I want enemies to be able to deal with my newly added spells. If I add a spell that makes its caster immune to all ranged weapons, I need the bad guys to change strategy when they 'notice'that their arrows of biting, or whatever, are having no effect. At the least, they should target someone else. Maybe a mage sound try to dispel. Also, enemy mages/druids/whatever need to be able to use these spells, where appropriate. How many enemies are there that might face or use said spell? Well, you need to figure that out as well.
So yeah, I am starting to really 'get it'. And, while I absolutely will add all iwd spells to the game in one or more mods, I really do now hope that beamdog does it because that is going to be a pita!
Video removed, hilarious as it is.
(some of the mimes may not by PG-13)
Since the premiere of original Icewind Dale druids are my favorite class, it's a shame I can't really enjoy them as much in the "sister" game.