@Bjjorick It have been proved that chield raised in Middle class, or above have a better chance in life, there is lot of study that proove it. Dosent mean that childrens coming from lower class can't raise up above his origin provided the parents and the childs work for it... It's the beuaty of a free market word, don't take it as an attack
Lol, i didn't take it as an attack, more a compliment, but i just wanted to correct it. I only make around 32-40k a year. I guess i'm lower middle class? Wife doesn't work, we decided to have one of us around all the time to be there for the kids always. We both agree that we want our sons to be better off (and hopefully soon our daughter). She does alot of work in the church.
@Shandyr If i helped in any way, i'm glad. If i can suggest, read the bible for yourself. Start with matthew, mark, luke, and john. The gospel of Jesus walking the earth. A gay man came to Jesus once and asked for a blessing, and Jesus blessed him for his faith.
I kinda felt for awhile on the board that people were taking my words out of context, assigning what they thought i meant rather then what i meant. I asked a friend and he said i needed to speak better, so i'm trying, but I've really enjoyed our convo and glad that you've tried to understand me. Thank you @shandyr. Not just for listening (and not complaining aobut me being long winded) but understanding me.
I always get the impression attacking religion directly is counter productive, people get riled up and defensive and more entrenched in their own camps. What we really need is less ignorance and more evidence based thinking.
I was quite touched recently reading a review of a geology program by a former creationist Christian. To accept the evidence he just needed to realise that these ideas weren't arrived at by people opposed to his views, but by Christians searching for proof of their own beliefs. It was not as if he was being told anything he hadn't heard before.
lol, people have been attacking Christianity for as long as it's existed. The church does alot of bad well as alot of good, because some are in it for power, some for money, some for other reasons, and a few are in it for serving God. It does sadden me that people say they're christian because they go to church without knowing the bible, knowing God, praying, talking to God, etc. But try to remember that every politician says that they'll do what's best for the people. Most of them are lying and know they're lying, some are lying but don't realize it (they have good intentions, but get wrapped up in the politics and turn or just don't get anything done) and a very few are real and will do what they can to help people.
Know the bible, that way if someone says that they are a christian, you can messure then off of the bible's standard and you won't be bothered by christians, but by those who claim that they are.
To destroy god (generically saying, so i mean all the religions) science would need to touch spiritual issues, as science can't enter in this battlefield, they can't touch god directly. What science does, is to turn god existence in idea, deny the idea for the absent of proofs in science battlefield (material plane) and therefore conclude with a limited logic.
Some centuries ago, everyone mocked whoever said that earth circles around the sun...Today people mock anyone that says there's inteligent life outside our planet. I always laught with this one, cos define as an absolute truth that the only inteligent being on the " infinite"universe are humans is logic enough for them as it seems... to make a limited statement on an unlimited universe... tell me more about that !
We should not answer prejudice with prejudice, the fact some religions prejudice the sexual options doesn't mean that those people shoud use a half-logic science as a tool to prejudice religion. My previous post made an statement based on the very logic that create Christianity, i used the own elements that create that religion to criticize it when used in an extremist way.
I always get the impression attacking religion directly is counter productive, people get riled up and defensive and more entrenched in their own camps. What we really need is less ignorance and more evidence based thinking.
I was quite touched recently reading a review of a geology program by a former creationist Christian. To accept the evidence he just needed to realise that these ideas weren't arrived at by people opposed to his views, but by Christians searching for proof of their own beliefs. It was not as if he was being told anything he hadn't heard before.
If someone believes that engaging in homosexual acts is a sin, I don't see how evidence or evidence-based thinking can sway this person one way or another, unless it undermines that person's religious convictions. You can show them any scientific fact, but the fundamentalist will point to some passage in a religious text, and the non-fundamentalist will point to either commandments or what the "religious authorities" have decided for them.
edit: actually I think I agree completely with what you said but misunderstood.
It's a bad title in my view, I just think that what he's saying is very interesting (and imo he hasn't disproved God). Same with the other video. I don't think humiliating someone is entertaining at all. Rather, I posted them because I find both perspectives very interesting (albeit, also a bit rhetorical on both sides). Further, the first video is of a religious figure who I think is very well educated and has a lot of good arguments, whereas the second is more of a pop culture icon (now unfortunately deceased) who usually doesn't have good arguments but has, in my view, compelling criticisms of organized religion, often centred around criticisms of totalitarianism, and generally has intelligent things to say, although not always (this video is imo Hitchens probably at his finest).
Also, for the record, there was a conference/debate between Craig and Hitchens, and I think Craig (the religious figure) was far more compelling, although I'm not sure what to think of some of his arguments.
If someone believes that engaging in homosexual acts is a sin, I don't see how evidence or evidence-based thinking can sway this person one way or another, unless it undermines that person's religious convictions. You can show them any scientific fact, but the fundamentalist will point to some passage in a religious text, and the non-fundamentalist will point to either commandments or what the "religious authorities" have decided.
You dont have to sway these persons. If somebody believs that homosexuality was a sin, then let him believe, because religion is a very personal and private matter.
Just as sexuality is.
I do not wish to be converted to a different sexual preference by religious people (nor by anybody for that matter), but then I have to accept that I should not try to convert somebodys else religious belief either.
Seems almost like a contradiction. But it is not in my opinion. If your rule of thumb is to value peace and respect for other people, then even homo/bisexuals and those who believe that this is a sin can get along.
That sounds fine, but there are people in some parts of the world who are killed solely for having engaged in homosexual acts, and the justification is religious in nature. I wouldn't want to live in that sort of society, and don't want it here either. Also, clearly it isn't a totally private matter seeing as so many people are very vocal about their religious beliefs and sexuality.
Further, I wasn't the first to bring up religion or sexuality here.
If someone believes that engaging in homosexual acts is a sin, I don't see how evidence or evidence-based thinking can sway this person one way or another, unless it undermines that person's religious convictions. You can show them any scientific fact, but the fundamentalist will point to some passage in a religious text, and the non-fundamentalist will point to either commandments or what the "religious authorities" have decided.
You dont have to sway these persons. If somebody believs that homosexuality was a sin, then let him believe, because religion is a very personal and private matter.
Just as sexuality is.
I do not wish to be converted to a different sexual preference by religious people (nor by anybody for that matter), but then I have to accept that I should not try to convert somebodys else religious belief either.
Seems almost like a contradiction. But it is not in my opinion. If your rule of thumb is to value peace and respect for other people, then even homo/bisexuals and those who believe that this is a sin can get along.
That sounds fine, but there are people in some parts of the world who are killed solely for having engaged in homosexual acts, and the justification is religious in nature. I wouldn't want to live in that sort of society, and don't want it here either. Also, clearly it isn't a totally private matter seeing as so many people are very vocal about their religious beliefs and sexuality.
Lol, and in those same parts of the world, you're killed for being a christian. The places where homosexuals are jailed for being homosexuals, christains are usually jailed for practicing christianity. I never understood why people seem to say all relegions are the same, but that's a topic i don't want to get into. Will just say that while catholics and mormons use the holy bible, they also have a different bible that they use just as much
christains are founded in judism, which is the old testament. The new testament is where Jesus walked the earth and the effects of it. But there is little other difference between the two. The same with mormons and catholics. But as the bible says, if they aren't against us, then they're with us. But then muslims and islamics.....don't want to get into that on a game board.
If someone believes that engaging in homosexual acts is a sin, I don't see how evidence or evidence-based thinking can sway this person one way or another, unless it undermines that person's religious convictions. You can show them any scientific fact, but the fundamentalist will point to some passage in a religious text, and the non-fundamentalist will point to either commandments or what the "religious authorities" have decided.
You dont have to sway these persons. If somebody believs that homosexuality was a sin, then let him believe, because religion is a very personal and private matter.
Just as sexuality is.
I do not wish to be converted to a different sexual preference by religious people (nor by anybody for that matter), but then I have to accept that I should not try to convert somebodys else religious belief either.
Seems almost like a contradiction. But it is not in my opinion. If your rule of thumb is to value peace and respect for other people, then even homo/bisexuals and those who believe that this is a sin can get along.
That sounds fine, but there are people in some parts of the world who are killed solely for having engaged in homosexual acts, and the justification is religious in nature. I wouldn't want to live in that sort of society, and don't want it here either. Also, clearly it isn't a totally private matter seeing as so many people are very vocal about their religious beliefs and sexuality.
Lol, and in those same parts of the world, you're killed for being a christian. The places where homosexuals are jailed for being homosexuals, christains are usually jailed for practicing christianity. I never understood why people seem to say all relegions are the same, but that's a topic i don't want to get into. Will just say that while catholics and mormons use the holy bible, they also have a different bible that they use just as much
christains are founded in judism, which is the old testament. The new testament is where Jesus walked the earth and the effects of it. But there is little other difference between the two. The same with mormons and catholics. But as the bible says, if they aren't against us, then they're with us. But then muslims and islamics.....don't want to get into that on a game board.
Right, but while to some this seems like a problem with fundamentalist Islam, others believe it is a problem with religious extremism in general, and then there are others who think it is a problem with organized religion period. For someone like Hitchens, it's religion period. For someone like Craig, I think it would be extremism. I tend to lean more towards Craig myself.
If someone believes that engaging in homosexual acts is a sin, I don't see how evidence or evidence-based thinking can sway this person one way or another, unless it undermines that person's religious convictions. You can show them any scientific fact, but the fundamentalist will point to some passage in a religious text, and the non-fundamentalist will point to either commandments or what the "religious authorities" have decided.
You dont have to sway these persons. If somebody believs that homosexuality was a sin, then let him believe, because religion is a very personal and private matter.
Just as sexuality is.
I do not wish to be converted to a different sexual preference by religious people (nor by anybody for that matter), but then I have to accept that I should not try to convert somebodys else religious belief either.
Seems almost like a contradiction. But it is not in my opinion. If your rule of thumb is to value peace and respect for other people, then even homo/bisexuals and those who believe that this is a sin can get along.
That sounds fine, but there are people in some parts of the world who are killed solely for having engaged in homosexual acts, and the justification is religious in nature. I wouldn't want to live in that sort of society, and don't want it here either. Also, clearly it isn't a totally private matter seeing as so many people are very vocal about their religious beliefs and sexuality.
Lol, and in those same parts of the world, you're killed for being a christian. The places where homosexuals are jailed for being homosexuals, christains are usually jailed for practicing christianity. I never understood why people seem to say all relegions are the same, but that's a topic i don't want to get into. Will just say that while catholics and mormons use the holy bible, they also have a different bible that they use just as much
christains are founded in judism, which is the old testament. The new testament is where Jesus walked the earth and the effects of it. But there is little other difference between the two. The same with mormons and catholics. But as the bible says, if they aren't against us, then they're with us. But then muslims and islamics.....don't want to get into that on a game board.
Right, but while to some this seems like a problem with fundamentalist Islam, others believe it is a problem with religious extremism in general, and then there are others who think it is a problem with organized religion period. For someone like Hitchens, it's religion period. For someone like Craig, I think it would be extremism. I tend to lean more towards Craig myself.
For me, it's any relegion where you stop thinking, stop asking why is it like this, why does God say this, etc. I guess that would fall more under the extremism. Lol, growing up i wanted nothing to do with church and God (except mom making me go, she wanted us to know about God and make our own choice, and i think she wanted to make sure i didn't turn out like my dad). Church we went to preached blind faith, that serving the church was the most important thing, fire and brimstone (HELLFIRE!!!!!), and all those other things. For a LOOOOOONG TIME, i thought God was some pervert watching everything you did and ready to smite you with an eternity in hell for messing up. Basically, all the stuff that the bible DOESN'T SAY or says very little. Hell is mentioned once or twice in the bible, the devil is mention quite a few times, fire and brimstone, well, you have the passage in revelation that talks about 'much sorrow and mashing of teeth'.
I suddenly realize why most homosexuals/bisexuals may not like christains.....Sorry guys.
Anyways, the bible gives you the rules (and look up slavery in the bible since it's typically a hot topic, it was basically the indentured servents of america, NOT THE AMERICAN SLAVERY. Basically, you choose who you worked for, you served for 7 years, if your master was nice, you could pledge to serve him for the rest of your life. the contracts could be broken and the slave/worker could leave over a breach of agreement.) of living and the basis of law. At the time, the penalty for sin/law breaking was discipline. Numerous times would lead to death, and it was like our death penalty now. The death penalty was abolished by the hands of Jesus because people were abusing it and quick to punish certain things with death (kinda like homosexuality and how people over react today).
the bible tells us how we have free will and we can choose what to do and who to serve, who to listen to who to follow, who to believe, what is required to be a leader, etc. Funny thing about catholics, the bible says that in order to be a leader of the church (cardinal/bishop, decon, preacher, etc, you must be married, take good care of your family, be in good standing in the community. If you can't take care of your own family, how can you take care of God's children????) The bible teaches you to think and to talk to God, God says He has hidden His mysteries in nature (which is how i view science, trying to find and unravel those mysteries).
I can go on and on but this is another long post and i HONESTLY thank anyone who takes the time to read them. Lol, i know how long winded i can be. I just want to say to those who have suffered at the hands of christains, i do apologize, and i hope you will learn what being a christain is (Hint: not the mainstream stuff, but the real deal) so that you can call out the fake ones when you see them. God bless you all.
now, on to star wars: EAW. I want to blow up some star destroyers. :P
Edit: Thank you @Shandyr. Heh, and even if we don't agree, it's fun when you can disagree without hurting anyone's feelings or being mean, and i respect you much for it.
My two cents, religion is a symptom, not the disease. And if that sounds offensive to any religious people here I apologize as it wasn't meant that way.
What I mean is, some prejudiced people use religion to justify their prejudices, but if they weren't religious they would have come up with other excuses for their bigotry. There are plenty of people in the world who aren't religious and yet have unjustifiable prejudices against various groups of people. I really don't think we need to drag religion into this discussion (too late) as in my experience doing so never seems to solve anything, in fact it usually achieves the opposite: gaps become wider and everyone becomes even more close-minded than they already were.
My two cents, religion is a symptom, not the disease. And if that sounds offensive to any religious people here I apologize as it wasn't meant that way.
What I mean is, some prejudiced people use religion to justify their prejudices, but if they weren't religious they would have come up with other excuses for their bigotry. There are plenty of people in the world who aren't religious and yet have unjustifiable prejudices against various groups of people. I really don't think we need to drag religion into this discussion (too late) as in my experience doing so never seems to solve anything, in fact it usually achieves the opposite: gaps become wider and everyone becomes even more close-minded than they already were.
I apologize man, i was just trying to show that even if people use relegion that way, not everyone who believes in God/relegion/etc isn't like that. I know everyone is biased and no one ever fully escapes some form of prejudices (as a teacher said to me in high school, if you prefer pepsi to coke, you're prejudice, that always stuck with me), people will hide behind anything powerful to throw their sticks and stone at whoever the feel is 'deserving'.
Ehhh, wanna see something horrible, look up the kid that went to steve job's funeral and was talking about how jobs was in hell because of creating the iphone and other things. And the kid used his iphone to tweet the same message to job's family right after his death. I always wondered, didn't his parents hear the scripture, "Spare the rod, spoil the child". I don't mean beat them senseless, i only spanked my sons once or twice, and never in anger. I prefer timeout, and with sitting there with them. It gets the message across much better, i feel. :P
Edit: btw, that 2nd paragraph was me justifying you point, i wasn't going off topic of my own post for no reason.....yeah, that sounds like a good excuse. :P
Edit x2: @fighter_mage_thief i've seen this before. i once agreed with it, a long time ago. It's all a matter of perception and experience i think.
The whole process of faith is "non-thinking" in the first place, I don't understand why we would skip that and start looking at a bible.
As Dawkins put so well “Everybody is an atheist in saying that there is a god - from Ra to Shiva - in which he does not believe. All that the serious and objective atheist does is to take the next step and to say that there is just one more god to disbelieve in.”
@Adul "With or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil—that takes religion. " (Steve Weinberg)
I quote these things because they word things so nicely. @fighter_mage_thief please forgive my hypocrisy
I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. Galileo Galilei
Freedom prospers when religion is vibrant and the rule of law under God is acknowledged. Ronald Reagan
A man can no more diminish God's glory by refusing to worship Him than a lunatic can put out the sun by scribbling the word, 'darkness' on the walls of his cell. C. S. Lewis
2 more, i love these last two as well.
We need to find God, and he cannot be found in noise and restlessness. God is the friend of silence. See how nature - trees, flowers, grass- grows in silence; see the stars, the moon and the sun, how they move in silence... We need silence to be able to touch souls. Mother Teresa
Before God we are all equally wise - and equally foolish. Albert Einstein
grrrr, okay, this last one is what america is facing now.
I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just; that his justice cannot sleep forever. Thomas Jefferson
Many great men on both sides of the fence, great thinkers, great politicians (there are more then just regan if you don't like him), great authors, etc.
@Bjjorick, history is full of examples of biased Christian interpretations.
Cruzades and inquisition are among the most aknowledge ones.
The movie Incendies picture very well some faces of fundamentalist christianity.
The problem isn't the religion, but the fanaticism on the interpretations.
@Moomintroll, Dawkins surelly doesn't know all religions to speak that, he just use obvious his surface knowledge of christian religion to judge all religions as similar ideas. I don't belong to any religion atm, and i have my own way to believe in the spiritual, what i do mostly is have an open mind to evaluate and receive some parts of each religion based in an overhaul study of many (what's pretty much a teologic study).
Atheism isn't praise science it's the death of science, a true scientist never say "it's doesn't exist" or "it can't be done", the only answer in science vocabulary is "why", otherwise science dies.
Personally, I usually hesistate to call anyone a hypocrit. I think that criticizing someone for hypocrisy is usually a low blow, and a little too self-righteous or arrogant. It's like criticizing someone for being a sinner. They should look at themselves first (and should even then lay off the high and mighty attitude), unless we're talking about a serious crime that has been committed, in which case a lot more than blame or criticism is required. I see nothing wrong with people changing their minds or being indecisive, because I suspend judgement on lots of things and have reconsidered many things in the past too.
lol, amen. And yeah, the CHURCH should never be at war. If you're christian and you go to war in defense of your nation, that's fine. But the church is supposed to bring the message of God and Jesus to people. If people don't accept the message, move on and try again later (not like a week later, but a few years later, or decades or centuries, however God commands). But to go out and kill because of the message is foolish and goes against the nature of the message.
Lol. But as far as the crusades go, kinda like when people talk about american slavery. I wasn't there, i don't know the details of what happened. What i know, i don't agree with, and i doubt much of anything would get me to change my mind.
As a joke to your post, my mom used to get mad at me when i was a kid because i always asked why, always. I still do. Maybe i should be a scientist. On the list of things i want to do before i die (before i was christian but none of them conflict with my service to God and most of it got done after coming to God, lol) is i want to know everything. Won't happen, or if it does, i'll surely die from a massive brain explosion, but lol, i'll never stop asking why and seeking the truth in all things. The truth led me to God, leads others to other things, but so long as people search for the truth, i can believe humanity has some hope left in it.
@fighter_mage_thief the hypocrisy I was referring to was in that I said earlier that I disliked making direct anti-religious remarks (if that wasn't clear).
@kamuizin That's great because it's the same argument that Dawkins himself uses from time to time, to say there cannot be a god is to show as much "belief" as to say there is one, as it cannot be proven. He often calls himself an agnostic.
lol, amen. And yeah, the CHURCH should never be at war. If you're christian and you go to war in defense of your nation, that's fine. But the church is supposed to bring the message of God and Jesus to people. If people don't accept the message, move on and try again later (not like a week later, but a few years later, or decades or centuries, however God commands). But to go out and kill because of the message is foolish and goes against the nature of the message.
Lol. But as far as the crusades go, kinda like when people talk about american slavery. I wasn't there, i don't know the details of what happened. What i know, i don't agree with, and i doubt much of anything would get me to change my mind.
@Mokona and still, Bjjorick and Quartz are on this board. Guess that proves Dr House wrong.
While you are of course free to share your personal opinion. I regard this as a generalization.
And I even see it as an insult towards those religious people in this thread who in my opion have shown that they are indeed REASONable.
This. Thanks, Shandyr. What did you do @Mokona, just skim this thread, see religion mentioned, and post that image? Religious 'nuts' Bjjorick and I have been being reasonable this entire time, and been having a good, open, reasonable conversation with Shandyr.
1. Your image is an awful generalization 2. It's not funny, either 3. It's not even suited for this topic, at all 4. Please try to be more reasonable. Thanks
The problem isn't the religion, but the fanaticism on the interpretations.
...
Atheism isn't praise science it's the death of science, a true scientist never say "it's doesn't exist" or "it can't be done", the only answer in science vocabulary is "why", otherwise science dies.
"Who's Online in this Category: [...] TrentOster [...]" The second time I see him in the Onlinelist of this thread.
I'm really curious what he thinks by reading through this thread. Would he have expected something like this thread to happen by making one of the characters a possible bi-romance?
@shandyr Lol, i again think him and the mods would be proud of the fact that we don't agree but we don't resort to name calling, hate filled speech, and death threats. But then, if that were the case, i'm 100% sure the topic would have been closed by now. I seem them close for far far less.
I'm sure you're refering to a few possibilities. When He told the nation of Isreal to go to war? God is in control of everything, including nations. Sometimes He uses war to humble people, sometimes disasters, sometimes love. It's all on what will change the hardened hearts of the people. But again, He told the NATION of Isreal to fight, not the Churches.
And if you're talking about when Moses came down from the mountains and slew many of his own people? Let me ask you this, you've been a slave for many years, then God delivers you. And not just delivers you (and please try to imagine this) but God parts the Red Sea (huge huge sea) for you to cross, then closes it on your captives/enemies. Then He appears to moses as a pillar of fire often. Not only that, but as you travel the desert, mana (food) rains down from the heavens every day and you go out and gather enough for your family. At the end of each day, any extra turns to maggots, EXCEPT on the sabbath. The day before the sabbath, you're told to get a double portion, and on the sabbath, they rest.
So, everyday is a miracle (how often has food fallen from the heavens for you?), and yet, despite all that God is doing and showing you, you take the gold that the egyptian gave you and create idols and worship them and have orgies and do all the things God told you not to do? Lol, the darwin awards talk about thinning out the shallow gene pool by incredible acts of stupidity that lead to death. If the darwinists weren't so against relegion, i think that would one that would be in there. What do we know about God, He's loving, but He's also jealous (and i say that's a part of love, if not, why don't we share the one we love with others?). After many miracles and blessings and warnings to follow their covent with God, you go out and do something INCREDIBLY STUPID to spite the one that's taking care of you.
If you have another passage in mind, please share.
Edit: @Quartz Thank you bro, and yeah, i've been enjoying talking to @shandyr. I've learned a lot from our talk, and it's helped me to open my eyes on alot of things. I hope it's been mutual @shandyr.
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@Shandyr
If i helped in any way, i'm glad. If i can suggest, read the bible for yourself. Start with matthew, mark, luke, and john. The gospel of Jesus walking the earth. A gay man came to Jesus once and asked for a blessing, and Jesus blessed him for his faith.
I kinda felt for awhile on the board that people were taking my words out of context, assigning what they thought i meant rather then what i meant. I asked a friend and he said i needed to speak better, so i'm trying, but I've really enjoyed our convo and glad that you've tried to understand me. Thank you @shandyr. Not just for listening (and not complaining aobut me being long winded) but understanding me.
What we really need is less ignorance and more evidence based thinking.
I was quite touched recently reading a review of a geology program by a former creationist Christian. To accept the evidence he just needed to realise that these ideas weren't arrived at by people opposed to his views, but by Christians searching for proof of their own beliefs. It was not as if he was being told anything he hadn't heard before.
lol, people have been attacking Christianity for as long as it's existed. The church does alot of bad well as alot of good, because some are in it for power, some for money, some for other reasons, and a few are in it for serving God. It does sadden me that people say they're christian because they go to church without knowing the bible, knowing God, praying, talking to God, etc. But try to remember that every politician says that they'll do what's best for the people. Most of them are lying and know they're lying, some are lying but don't realize it (they have good intentions, but get wrapped up in the politics and turn or just don't get anything done) and a very few are real and will do what they can to help people.
Know the bible, that way if someone says that they are a christian, you can messure then off of the bible's standard and you won't be bothered by christians, but by those who claim that they are.
Some centuries ago, everyone mocked whoever said that earth circles around the sun...Today people mock anyone that says there's inteligent life outside our planet. I always laught with this one, cos define as an absolute truth that the only inteligent being on the " infinite"universe are humans is logic enough for them as it seems... to make a limited statement on an unlimited universe... tell me more about that
We should not answer prejudice with prejudice, the fact some religions prejudice the sexual options doesn't mean that those people shoud use a half-logic science as a tool to prejudice religion. My previous post made an statement based on the very logic that create Christianity, i used the own elements that create that religion to criticize it when used in an extremist way.
Ps: i didn't wach the videos yet.
edit: actually I think I agree completely with what you said but misunderstood.
Also, for the record, there was a conference/debate between Craig and Hitchens, and I think Craig (the religious figure) was far more compelling, although I'm not sure what to think of some of his arguments.
Further, I wasn't the first to bring up religion or sexuality here.
christains are founded in judism, which is the old testament. The new testament is where Jesus walked the earth and the effects of it. But there is little other difference between the two. The same with mormons and catholics. But as the bible says, if they aren't against us, then they're with us. But then muslims and islamics.....don't want to get into that on a game board.
I suddenly realize why most homosexuals/bisexuals may not like christains.....Sorry guys.
Anyways, the bible gives you the rules (and look up slavery in the bible since it's typically a hot topic, it was basically the indentured servents of america, NOT THE AMERICAN SLAVERY. Basically, you choose who you worked for, you served for 7 years, if your master was nice, you could pledge to serve him for the rest of your life. the contracts could be broken and the slave/worker could leave over a breach of agreement.) of living and the basis of law. At the time, the penalty for sin/law breaking was discipline. Numerous times would lead to death, and it was like our death penalty now. The death penalty was abolished by the hands of Jesus because people were abusing it and quick to punish certain things with death (kinda like homosexuality and how people over react today).
the bible tells us how we have free will and we can choose what to do and who to serve, who to listen to who to follow, who to believe, what is required to be a leader, etc. Funny thing about catholics, the bible says that in order to be a leader of the church (cardinal/bishop, decon, preacher, etc, you must be married, take good care of your family, be in good standing in the community. If you can't take care of your own family, how can you take care of God's children????) The bible teaches you to think and to talk to God, God says He has hidden His mysteries in nature (which is how i view science, trying to find and unravel those mysteries).
I can go on and on but this is another long post and i HONESTLY thank anyone who takes the time to read them. Lol, i know how long winded i can be. I just want to say to those who have suffered at the hands of christains, i do apologize, and i hope you will learn what being a christain is (Hint: not the mainstream stuff, but the real deal) so that you can call out the fake ones when you see them. God bless you all.
now, on to star wars: EAW. I want to blow up some star destroyers. :P
Edit: Thank you @Shandyr. Heh, and even if we don't agree, it's fun when you can disagree without hurting anyone's feelings or being mean, and i respect you much for it.
sorry for the double post, but anyone find this guy's eyes to be creepy?
What I mean is, some prejudiced people use religion to justify their prejudices, but if they weren't religious they would have come up with other excuses for their bigotry. There are plenty of people in the world who aren't religious and yet have unjustifiable prejudices against various groups of people. I really don't think we need to drag religion into this discussion (too late) as in my experience doing so never seems to solve anything, in fact it usually achieves the opposite: gaps become wider and everyone becomes even more close-minded than they already were.
Doesn't have to be true.
Example: George Carlin comedy (warning: foul language)
www.youtube.com/
watch?v=6RT6rL2UroE
Ehhh, wanna see something horrible, look up the kid that went to steve job's funeral and was talking about how jobs was in hell because of creating the iphone and other things. And the kid used his iphone to tweet the same message to job's family right after his death. I always wondered, didn't his parents hear the scripture, "Spare the rod, spoil the child". I don't mean beat them senseless, i only spanked my sons once or twice, and never in anger. I prefer timeout, and with sitting there with them. It gets the message across much better, i feel. :P
Edit: btw, that 2nd paragraph was me justifying you point, i wasn't going off topic of my own post for no reason.....yeah, that sounds like a good excuse. :P
Edit x2: @fighter_mage_thief
i've seen this before. i once agreed with it, a long time ago. It's all a matter of perception and experience i think.
As Dawkins put so well “Everybody is an atheist in saying that there is a god - from Ra to Shiva - in which he does not believe. All that the serious and objective atheist does is to take the next step and to say that there is just one more god to disbelieve in.”
@Adul "With or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil—that takes religion. " (Steve Weinberg)
I quote these things because they word things so nicely.
@fighter_mage_thief please forgive my hypocrisy
here's a quote i always loved.
I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use.
Galileo Galilei
Freedom prospers when religion is vibrant and the rule of law under God is acknowledged.
Ronald Reagan
A man can no more diminish God's glory by refusing to worship Him than a lunatic can put out the sun by scribbling the word, 'darkness' on the walls of his cell.
C. S. Lewis
2 more, i love these last two as well.
We need to find God, and he cannot be found in noise and restlessness. God is the friend of silence. See how nature - trees, flowers, grass- grows in silence; see the stars, the moon and the sun, how they move in silence... We need silence to be able to touch souls.
Mother Teresa
Before God we are all equally wise - and equally foolish.
Albert Einstein
grrrr, okay, this last one is what america is facing now.
I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just; that his justice cannot sleep forever.
Thomas Jefferson
Many great men on both sides of the fence, great thinkers, great politicians (there are more then just regan if you don't like him), great authors, etc.
Cruzades and inquisition are among the most aknowledge ones.
The movie Incendies picture very well some faces of fundamentalist christianity.
The problem isn't the religion, but the fanaticism on the interpretations.
@Moomintroll, Dawkins surelly doesn't know all religions to speak that, he just use obvious his surface knowledge of christian religion to judge all religions as similar ideas. I don't belong to any religion atm, and i have my own way to believe in the spiritual, what i do mostly is have an open mind to evaluate and receive some parts of each religion based in an overhaul study of many (what's pretty much a teologic study).
Atheism isn't praise science it's the death of science, a true scientist never say "it's doesn't exist" or "it can't be done", the only answer in science vocabulary is "why", otherwise science dies.
lol, amen. And yeah, the CHURCH should never be at war. If you're christian and you go to war in defense of your nation, that's fine. But the church is supposed to bring the message of God and Jesus to people. If people don't accept the message, move on and try again later (not like a week later, but a few years later, or decades or centuries, however God commands). But to go out and kill because of the message is foolish and goes against the nature of the message.
Lol. But as far as the crusades go, kinda like when people talk about american slavery. I wasn't there, i don't know the details of what happened. What i know, i don't agree with, and i doubt much of anything would get me to change my mind.
As a joke to your post, my mom used to get mad at me when i was a kid because i always asked why, always. I still do. Maybe i should be a scientist. On the list of things i want to do before i die (before i was christian but none of them conflict with my service to God and most of it got done after coming to God, lol) is i want to know everything. Won't happen, or if it does, i'll surely die from a massive brain explosion, but lol, i'll never stop asking why and seeking the truth in all things. The truth led me to God, leads others to other things, but so long as people search for the truth, i can believe humanity has some hope left in it.
@kamuizin That's great because it's the same argument that Dawkins himself uses from time to time, to say there cannot be a god is to show as much "belief" as to say there is one, as it cannot be proven. He often calls himself an agnostic.
Old Testament God disagrees with you.
1. Your image is an awful generalization
2. It's not funny, either
3. It's not even suited for this topic, at all
4. Please try to be more reasonable. Thanks Two absolutely excellent quotes. Well said, sir. I see you guys have been being awesome here without me. xD Very nice post Bjjorick and I'm glad you appreciated it Shandyr.
Lol, i again think him and the mods would be proud of the fact that we don't agree but we don't resort to name calling, hate filled speech, and death threats. But then, if that were the case, i'm 100% sure the topic would have been closed by now. I seem them close for far far less.
@AHF
I'm sure you're refering to a few possibilities. When He told the nation of Isreal to go to war? God is in control of everything, including nations. Sometimes He uses war to humble people, sometimes disasters, sometimes love. It's all on what will change the hardened hearts of the people. But again, He told the NATION of Isreal to fight, not the Churches.
And if you're talking about when Moses came down from the mountains and slew many of his own people? Let me ask you this, you've been a slave for many years, then God delivers you. And not just delivers you (and please try to imagine this) but God parts the Red Sea (huge huge sea) for you to cross, then closes it on your captives/enemies. Then He appears to moses as a pillar of fire often. Not only that, but as you travel the desert, mana (food) rains down from the heavens every day and you go out and gather enough for your family. At the end of each day, any extra turns to maggots, EXCEPT on the sabbath. The day before the sabbath, you're told to get a double portion, and on the sabbath, they rest.
So, everyday is a miracle (how often has food fallen from the heavens for you?), and yet, despite all that God is doing and showing you, you take the gold that the egyptian gave you and create idols and worship them and have orgies and do all the things God told you not to do? Lol, the darwin awards talk about thinning out the shallow gene pool by incredible acts of stupidity that lead to death. If the darwinists weren't so against relegion, i think that would one that would be in there. What do we know about God, He's loving, but He's also jealous (and i say that's a part of love, if not, why don't we share the one we love with others?). After many miracles and blessings and warnings to follow their covent with God, you go out and do something INCREDIBLY STUPID to spite the one that's taking care of you.
If you have another passage in mind, please share.
Edit: @Quartz Thank you bro, and yeah, i've been enjoying talking to @shandyr. I've learned a lot from our talk, and it's helped me to open my eyes on alot of things. I hope it's been mutual @shandyr.