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Jaheira

What's the best, non lethal method of ditching the despised Khalid and keeping Jaheira? I have no use for him at all but want a simple explanation for how he returns in SOD so I'm trying to avoid my usual basilisk visitation

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Comments

  • PK2748PK2748 Member Posts: 381
    Khalid's personality and speech patterns are annoying. He is the only character I've ever experienced morale issues with and had flee a battle. I don't see any real issue for single class straight fighters because the advantages they receive over multi-class fighters are not achieved at low level and are not that exciting.

    I agree BG1 Jaheira is underwhelming but I like Druid weapons better than I like Cleric weapons. I don't want to worry about artificially keeping my reputation down for Viconia. Yeslick is awesome but I'm in chapter one

    Daevelon
  • LateralusLateralus Member Posts: 903
    Elendar said:

    I really don't know why people hate Khalid so much... He's not THAT bad of a fighter.. Very good DEX score makes him a fairly decent tank and he can deal decent damage if you give him the STR gauntlets.


    Anyways, just send him into a building before you remove him from the party so that he can't reach your PC to talk to you.. And don't enter that building again.

    edit:

    To be honest, I think that Jaheira is by far the weaker of that pair, really... Branwen, Viconia or Yeslick are far better options for healing. Only reason to take her is for roleplaying purposes or if you really think its cheesey to split the pair and want Khalid.

    He's a solid NPC, he can become a very deadly archer too. I agree with Jaheira too, maybe if they gave her a druid kit?

  • LateralusLateralus Member Posts: 903
    PK2748 said:

    Khalid's personality and speech patterns are annoying. He is the only character I've ever experienced morale issues with and had flee a battle. I don't see any real issue for single class straight fighters because the advantages they receive over multi-class fighters are not achieved at low level and are not that exciting.

    I agree BG1 Jaheira is underwhelming but I like Druid weapons better than I like Cleric weapons. I don't want to worry about artificially keeping my reputation down for Viconia. Yeslick is awesome but I'm in chapter one

    Kagain is less bold than you might expect.

    BTW try to get to Yeslick with as little XP as you can. If you recruit him at level 2F/3C you can give him two-weapon style. Dual hammer wielding Yeslick is a beast. OR just mod it.

  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 16,050
    edited March 2016
    PK2748 said:

    Khalid's personality and speech patterns are annoying. He is the only character I've ever experienced morale issues with and had flee a battle.

    For the record he has the same morale breaking point as Kagain, Garrick, Eldoth, Tiax, and Quayle.

    [Deleted User]mashedtatersCamus34
  • TressetTresset Member, Moderator Posts: 7,917
    My favorite method is a cursed Scroll of Petrification; C:CreateItem("scrl16"). Have him read it and you now have a nice Khalid statue to watch over your stash. You can even revive him later should you decide you need him again!

    JuliusBorisovmashedtatersluskan
  • PK2748PK2748 Member Posts: 381
    elminster said:

    PK2748 said:

    Khalid's personality and speech patterns are annoying. He is the only character I've ever experienced morale issues with and had flee a battle.

    For the record he has the same morale breaking point as Kagain, Garrick, Eldoth, Tiax, and Quayle.
    Yeah I've never seen a difference in the morale figure under EE keeper, but I've never had anyone else break. It may just be a function of tanking at level one but it's left the impression he is a coward. Even if he had unbreakabke morale though I still find single class fighters dull and I've never been able to conceive of a job for him that someone else couldn't do better.


    As for Yeslick, I usually try and get him and Quayle at their lowest level, I think they are two of the absolute best NPCs. As what I hope will be my ultimate full Gate saga run though I'm not sure if either has a place in my storyline.

  • RaduzielRaduziel Member Posts: 4,716
    Khalid is less useless if you turn him into a Ranger (I use the Justifier kit).

    As for the OP: just let him rot inside any building.

    Isolate him, remove from party and done. He won't be able to go talk to you, so the script to remove Jaheira won't fire.

    He's a lame Fighter but do become acceptable if you give him the ogre gauntlets. But I prefer to offer them to Ajantis or Yeslick (in a good party) or Kagain or Viconia (in an evil party). Or even to Tiax for some nice backstabs.

    In other terms: Irenicus did us a favor.

  • FinnTheHumanFinnTheHuman Member Posts: 404
    Isolating Khalid is a good trick and new to me. Currently, I'm keeping him instead of Jaheira. I find that he lends my evil party a bit of outward respectability. I also find him much more tolerable as a woman and in mourning.

  • PhilhelmPhilhelm Member Posts: 473
    Lateralus said:

    Kagain is less bold than you might expect.

    In his case it's not fear, he just doesn't want to be there to begin with.

  • RaduzielRaduziel Member Posts: 4,716
    Never had a morale break with anyone but Khalid.

    IMHO he and Jaheira can rot in Friendly Arm Inn.

  • KilivitzKilivitz Member Posts: 1,459
    edited March 2016
    I've had Jaheira suffer morale breaks more often than Khalid depending on the game.

    Khalid is great because he's versatile. Depending on equipment and how you allocate his proficiency points, he can either be a decent Archer or frontliner. Even more so now that he can equip a shield and a bow without any hassle.

    And his stats are all around great too. They're only subpar if you're the type of player who thinks good equals 18s across the board.

    [Deleted User]BelgarathMTHPhilhelm
  • PK2748PK2748 Member Posts: 381
    How is Khalid more versatile than Coran? Or Yeslick? With a party of six I don't really need a boring single class fighter. I have room for people who actually can fill way more positions than Khalid

  • KilivitzKilivitz Member Posts: 1,459
    Coran is better used as an archer due to his armor restriction, his absurd DEX and illegal bow mastery. Yeslick is a Fighter/Cleric, which is also a versatile combo. But Yeslick is also a great NPC (except for not being able to read scrolls), and so is Coran.

    I'm not saying everyone should like Khalid. If you think single-classed Fighters are boring I agree that you should take someone else.

    I'm just opposing the seemingly prevalent idea that "Khalid sucks". He doesn't. He's arguably one of the most useful NPCs in BG1. Maybe more than Jaheira, who suffers from the Druid's narrow weapon options and lack of useful Druid spells at lower levels.

    BelgarathMTHmashedtaters
  • RaduzielRaduziel Member Posts: 4,716
    There are five advantages in a single-class Fighter

    1) Exceptional Strenght. And he doesn't get it. Not even close.

    2) Dual-Class. And he doesn't get it

    3) Grandmastery. It's possible, but his starting pips doesn't help (why in the nine hells one pipe in axe???)

    4) Bonus HP due to Con. He gets it, but not its maximum to compensate the above (like Kagain does)

    5) Be a powerhorse tank with low AC. Here was his time to shine but the damn "warrior" just run away from battle everytime things heat up.

    Let's just be honest: let's pretend we're playing PnP AD&D and the Dungeon Master hands you Khalid's character sheet. Would you be happy about it?

  • PK2748PK2748 Member Posts: 381
    I do agree that I'd be thrilled to have Khalid's stat total but half elf fighter not so much

  • BillyYankBillyYank Member Posts: 2,769
    You don't even need to designate an entire building as a Khalid holding area. A room with a door works just as well.

  • RaduzielRaduziel Member Posts: 4,716
    @Kilivitz

    I'm playing AD&D since 2000 (the others players in my group plays since 1990).

    Had some character with lame stats, never was able to roll a sheet that would allow me a Paladin or a Druid, rarely was able to Dual-Class, had a Wizard whose better stat was 16 Int, but I never - ever - played a Fighter with less then 18 Strength.

    It's not about having all max. My favorite NPC is Tiax, my second one is Quayle, and neither of them is maxed. But they can get the job done.

    Khalid misses a lot of attacks and hits like a feather. Minsc, not being a Fighter, is better Fighter then him. The same goes for Dorn and Ajantis. Hell, even Jaheira brings more to the table.

  • KilivitzKilivitz Member Posts: 1,459
    Raduziel said:

    Khalid misses a lot of attacks and hits like a feather.

    Khalid misses as often as any Fighter with a 15 STR at the same level. Unless this other hypothetical Fighter has better gear, all of which in context of the game Khalid has access to.

    "Hits like a feather" is a purely subjective argument. As opposed to whom? You mentioned Ajantis (STR 17), Minsc (STR 18/93) and Dorn (STR 19). Compared to them, of course he's going to hit less often and cause less damage per hit.

    But the thing is, THAC0 and damage output is not everything a Fighter's about. His DEX and CON are higher than any of the NPCs you've mentioned, giving him an edge on AC and HPs.

    Sure, you can give the others the Gauntlets of Dexterity and make them harder to hit. Just like you can also give the Gauntlets of Ogre Strength to Khalid. Or you can put him further back with the Bracers of Archery and Long Bow mastery at Level 6, making him the 2nd best archer in the game. And he will still be able to effectively hit things with a Long Sword.
    Raduziel said:

    Hell, even Jaheira brings more to the table.

    If you think that's because of her Druid spells, that's fine. But if we're comparing them as Fighters, Jaheira has lower STR and DEX, and the same CON, except she levels up slower and has less hitpoints due to being multi-classed. She's also unable to go past specialization and a much more limited weapon selection. So what exactly does she bring to table other than having a different voice, portrait and gender?

    I'll say it again: it's okay not to like Khalid. Maybe you think his voice is annoying, maybe you don't like his face, maybe you think that anything less than 18 is not an acceptable STR score, and you're not incorrect in any of that.

    But there's no point in trying to validate one's opinions putting them forth as facts. But @Raduziel please don't take what I've said personally - I have a pet peeve with these "Khalid sucks" arguments because they're so prevalent and as you can see, I don't think they hold up when you look at it objectively.

    BelgarathMTHmashedtatersPhilhelm
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0
    edited March 2016
    The user and all related content has been deleted.

    KilivitzEnialusMeliamneBelgarathMTHmashedtaters
  • RaduzielRaduziel Member Posts: 4,716
    edited March 2016
    @Kilivitz

    I'm actually enjoying this conversation, not taking anything personal at all. :smile:

    Two points:

    1) Hit's like a feather because his STR sucks. Every other Warrior has better Strength. That's my comparison, his damage bonus due to strength is piddling, his bonus to hit is awful (what leads to him missing most then any other warrior NPC at the same level).

    2) Yup, Jaheira brings more 'cause of the druid spells.

    IMHO a good fighter isn't the one who takes more damage, but the one who hits with precision and strength, actually sweeping all the enemies in the battlefield before they can deliver any casualties to the party.

    Heck, even Montaron brings more to the table, cause he got the shorty's save throw bonus, backstab and thief skills.

    Yeslick has the same Strength and Constitution then Khalid, but is able to cast priest spells and also have shorty's save throw bonus.

    The only true advantage of Khalid is that he'll level up faster. But he'll just be a weak and coward "high" level fighter.

    And I'll repeat: never, during the entire saga, I had a morale break with anyone but Khalid.

    We should shake Irenicus hands.

    PK2748
  • mashedtatersmashedtaters Member Posts: 2,243
    "Better part of valor! Better part of valor!"

    I fall into childish giggles every time I hear it.

    CaptRoryEnialusMeliamneillathid
  • JarrakulJarrakul Member Posts: 2,029
    I'm actually of the opinion that Khalid is the best unaugmented tank in the game. Sure, Kagain has his ridiculous con, but until he gets the gloves of dex, all those hit points mean very little indeed. Their damage output is comparable, too, with Khalid's matching or exceeding Kagain's for most of the game. Now, of course Kagain is a better tank with the gloves of dex, but that's a high priority magic item that a great many characters need to be particularly good (Yeslick, Ajantis, and Jaheira all come to mind). Khalid, meanwhile, not only allows the gloves to be used elsewhere, he can also wear the gauntlets of weapon expertise or even the gauntlets of ogre power, if you don't have a better option for them, raising his damage output substantially above Kagain's.

    Of course Khalid does have worse saves, but... this is BG1. Not to say saves aren't good to save, but if you're relying on saves, you've already lost.

    None of which is to say that Khalid is the best NPC in the game or anything, but as someone who's run with him a number of times, I have never found him to be anything short of capable.

    (And, for what it's worth, I've had Khalid morale break exactly once, ever. Which happens to be the same number of times I've had Kagain break, and I run Kagain a lot less often. Khalid's cowardice is greatly exaggerated.)

    mashedtatersBelgarathMTH
  • shawneshawne Member Posts: 3,239
    I can tell you how I RPed it with my Good all-female party: they were resting up at the FAI, and Khalid decided to run inventory. He found a scroll, got curious, and... well, it was a Cursed Scroll of Petrification. Jaheira was upset, but the other ladies convinced her he'd be perfectly safe as an inn decoration while the rest of them were out adventuring. (They never did get around to finding that Stone to Flesh spell...)

    mashedtatersCaptRory
  • ChnapyChnapy Member Posts: 360
    This is just plain lazy from them. Didn't the temple just below sell a bunch of those? I fear poor khalid was never as loved as he thought.

    CaptRoryLoldrup
  • PK2748PK2748 Member Posts: 381
    I usually have Khalid and Eldoth both tend to visit basilisks, I was just trying to have a more SOD friendly resolution. Of course yesterday I rolled a 104 on a cleric/thief so I'm probably not going to use Jaheira anyway and I'm going to wait for version 2.0 to drop and build a two man team right out of Candlekeep

  • KaigenKaigen Member Posts: 1,567
    Raduziel said:


    1) Hit's like a feather because his STR sucks. Every other Warrior has better Strength. That's my comparison, his damage bonus due to strength is piddling, his bonus to hit is awful (what leads to him missing most then any other warrior NPC at the same level).

    Unless they're one of the people with exceptional strength (or Dorn), the difference from STR score is minimal. Montaron's 16 Strength? +1 damage. That's all. Ajantis merely gets a +1 hit on top of that.

    Now, at this point you're probably saying that +1 is better than nothing, or pointing towards people like Kivan (+1/+3) or Minsc (+2/+5). And you're not wrong, but you also have to take into account the benefits of higher mastery. Grabbing that third pip in long swords gives Khalid +2/+1 over anyone who stops at Specialization (i.e. everyone but Shar-Teel or Kagain). Dropping the fourth pip brings that up to +2/+2. Once you add Gauntlets of Ogre Power, Khalid actually has higher to-hit and damage potential than most other warriors in the game because of that mastery edge. The only NPC who gets potentially better use out of the Gauntlets is Yeslick, who needs them for Draw Upon Holy Might to get him anywhere significant in terms of Strength, but Yeslick comes at the end of chapter 4, while you can grab Khalid first thing in chapter 1.

    JarrakulmashedtatersPhilhelm
  • PK2748PK2748 Member Posts: 381
    Actually with Yeslick I think you throw on the strength bent from the dark moon monks, then gauntlets of dexterity and then one of the attribute bucklers and THEN Draw. Sling launching machine or best tank in the game with the Stupifier. And you can get him at level 2/3. With instant Dispel Magic and illegal high hit point totals. How is he not everyone's favorite?

    mashedtatersKilivitz
  • ElendarElendar Member Posts: 831
    PK2748 said:

    Actually with Yeslick I think you throw on the strength bent from the dark moon monks, then gauntlets of dexterity and then one of the attribute bucklers and THEN Draw. Sling launching machine or best tank in the game with the Stupifier. And you can get him at level 2/3. With instant Dispel Magic and illegal high hit point totals. How is he not everyone's favorite?

    I don't think I've ever actually used Yeslick in a run through.. which is kind of strange because I love dwarves, its just that you can't use him until so late in the game that my party is already set and he just ends up drowning in the flooded cloakwood mines.

    mashedtaters
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