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The greatest AI flaw of the EE games (and how to easily fix it)

YgramulYgramul Member Posts: 1,060
Noticed this while playing IWDEE (which has currently no AI mod) while doing the Vale of Shadows, but it remains true pretty much everywhere:

You dungeon-crawl your way into a hall of enemies; then, only the handful in the front who have seen your attack you. As long as you don't actually *rush* forward, their friends just behind won't lift a finger to help them.

They will attack. One. At. A Time.
Austin Powers style.

This is a terrible immersion breaker that makes the vanilla EE games just about unplayable for me.

(This doesn't happen in SCS because of the "Better Calls for Help" component.)


EASY FIX:
Line-of-sight alerting of enemies.

Simply put, if an enemy is agroed than it agroes all other enemies in its line-of-sight.

"Hey everyone, adventurers are beating up on Deekin. Let's get'em!"

Done. No more pulling enemies 1 or 2 at a time.

This would work better than merely a distance based alert, because in convoluted dungeons (Firewine!) distance is a misleading measure of proximity.


You can adjust the impact of this alert system by deciding whether it "chains" onward.

Example: at Core difficuluty, the alert applies to those in immediate line-of-sight (agro jumps forward only once), but at Insane, you can let this jump twice or maybe three times along line-of-sight. (Only relevant for a massive hall or a lengthy corridor full of enemies.)

Could @Dee or some other magician from Beamdog please comment on if this would be something they would consider? Vanilla game (without SCS) is unbearable without it.

Comments

  • Lord_TansheronLord_Tansheron Member Posts: 4,212
    It's true, the AI really isn't all that amazing. SCS has become truly non-negotiable for my enjoyment, and a lack of it is why I stopped playing IWD:EE very quickly.

    That being said, I don't think calls for help are the biggest issue, nor a simple fix. An improvement, sure, but a minor one. There's also the entire aggro situation to consider, for example, where mobs just keep on hitting whoever they saw first and only switch if they cannot reach them (and sometimes not even then); or the fact that so many enemies simply stand there and attack you and hardly use any abilities at all (save casters); etc.

    Luckily we do have SCS, which probably does more than an "official" fix would be able to accomplish. If only we had the TTT variant for IWD...
  • DeeDee Member Posts: 10,447
    Although I personally have no problem with enemies acting with a basic level of common sense, I know there are some players out there who depend on this "Late 90s era" AI to get through some harder areas.

    But it's worth considering, certainly.
  • prairiechickenprairiechicken Member Posts: 149
    They changed the ai in iwd2 so that pulling one enemy will pull the entire pack.

    They certainly have justification to apply it in older games
  • UnderstandMouseMagicUnderstandMouseMagic Member Posts: 2,147
    I like playing the game as it is.

    I am actually playing through for the first time with SCS, fun yes, but for my RPG reqirements, it doesn't suit.
    I like "sniping", I even play Halo the same way. Careful, careful creepy, creepy.

    Probably age, my sons play all out "go in with their quick reactions and kill everything".
    As long as there is a mod, why make the game almost unplayable for a lot of us?
    OK, there is the option of using the difficulty slider, less damage, but that feels like cheating.

    @Dee

    There are lots of people who are playing BG inbetween working and living. You are quite right, they depend on it being slightly easier, to actually get somewhere in the game in the odd hour they get to play.
    BG is massive, my daughter (20's) is finding it hard and phones up for tips now and again.
    And she is the generation who are snatching a couple of hours play on the train ect. on her Ipad maybe once/twice a week at most.
    And they have the money.

    If she was confronted with a battle that needed reload after reload, she would just abandon the game eventually because it's days to acomplish any quest as it stands.
  • SethDavisSethDavis Member Posts: 1,812
    I once broke the shouting/hearing distance and went on to test something in the bandit camp... it was glorious
  • YgramulYgramul Member Posts: 1,060
    edited March 2016
    SethDavis said:

    I once broke the shouting/hearing distance and went on to test something in the bandit camp... it was glorious

    My SCS install of Bandit Camp actually agroes even the bosses inside the main tent when the bandit battle is triggered! (They do trigger an alarm though, it makes sense.) :)


    Look, fine, if people want to have an oldfashioned I-am-too-distracted-to-play-with-a-good-AI option based on the old broken AI, of course, they should have it. No need to deprive anyone of that.

    But for the love of all that is holy, please give us an improved AI.
    ...and sell it as a DLC as necessary.

    It surely won't be too hard to have a checkbox in the "Gameplay" options to have the smart AI on -- if smart AI could be done even moderately.

    I would rather pay $40 or whatever for an AI improvement than for SoD. (I am basically buying SoD so that Beamdog stays on to develop more goodies, including especially better AI one day.)


  • JuliusBorisovJuliusBorisov Member, Administrator, Moderator, Developer Posts: 22,758
    edited March 2016


    There are lots of people who are playing BG inbetween working and living. You are quite right, they depend on it being slightly easier, to actually get somewhere in the game in the odd hour they get to play.
    BG is massive, my daughter (20's) is finding it hard and phones up for tips now and again.
    And she is the generation who are snatching a couple of hours play on the train ect. on her Ipad maybe once/twice a week at most.
    And they have the money.

    If she was confronted with a battle that needed reload after reload, she would just abandon the game eventually because it's days to acomplish any quest as it stands.

    I think if the @Ygramul 's idea was implemented for harder difficulty settings, there wouln't be such a problem. This way, for players who play only "a couple of hours" "inbetween working and living", the game wouldn't offer additional difficulties. And for other players there would be an option to make the game more interesting.
  • Lord_TansheronLord_Tansheron Member Posts: 4,212
    Options are king, for sure. Love options. More options. MOAR OPTIONS!

    That's why mods are so modular (man I am on FIRE today).
  • OlvynChuruOlvynChuru Member Posts: 3,079
    Personally, I like abusing the bad AI. I think that bad AI adds strategy to the game. There might be a battle that you can't win by brute force but can win by taking advantage of the fact that enemies can't open doors.
    bengoshi said:


    There are lots of people who are playing BG inbetween working and living. You are quite right, they depend on it being slightly easier, to actually get somewhere in the game in the odd hour they get to play.
    BG is massive, my daughter (20's) is finding it hard and phones up for tips now and again.
    And she is the generation who are snatching a couple of hours play on the train ect. on her Ipad maybe once/twice a week at most.
    And they have the money.

    If she was confronted with a battle that needed reload after reload, she would just abandon the game eventually because it's days to acomplish any quest as it stands.

    I think if the @Ygramul 's idea was implemented for harder difficulty settings, there wouln't be such a problem. This way, for players who play only "a couple of hours" "inbetween working and living", the game wouldn't offer additional difficulties. And for other players there would be an option to make the game more interesting.
    THE @Ygramul ? Feared by all?
  • PteranPteran Member Posts: 388
    @OlvynChuru wait, your enemy NPC's can't open doors? Because mine sure can. I was soloing the TorGal fight and tried using the doors to separate his allies into more manageable groups. They just opened them up and came charging in.
  • FinnTheHumanFinnTheHuman Member Posts: 404
    edited March 2016
    I play on an ipad, and would love to be able to buy a "SCS" option. Never played with it. It sounds great. Option, of course, being the important word. I wouldn't pay $40 though. $5 definately, $10 with some hesitation. $15,$20? If I was drunk, i guess, but i don't normally play that way.
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