I'm trying to put everything together:
1- THAC0 is rarely an issue by the end of the game, so only damage is important
2- Throwing weapons can get a strength bonus, so they are better damage-wise per hit than "launcher" weapons
3- In throwing weapon, only Fire Tooth and Crisom Dart provide an infinite +3 supply
=> Fire Tooth and throwing dagger proefficiency seems to be the winner (if you exclude the rare foes needing a +4 weapon)
For the class:
Method A (no GWW):
1- Grand Mastery in throwing daggers is something only a plain Fighter and Wizard Slayers can have (+1APR)
2- Fighter can use also the Gauntlet of Extraordinary Weapon Specialization (+0.5 APR)
So, it seems for me than a dual class Fighter 13/Mage is still a very powerful combination for ranged potential maximization... 3.5 base APR, plus Improved Haste => 7 APR, which is the highest possible without GWW and using throwing daggers
Method B (with GWW):
Using GWW, the solo-class Archer is the best user of throwing daggers due to its damage bonus (up to +10?)
I was under the impression that the archer did get their bonuses with throwing daggers, but it's kind of a moot point, since they lack even weapon specialization. That's effectively a -5 to damage right there (compared to grandmastery), which means they'll trail in damage per attack until late BG2. Doesn't seem worth it, just to get a bit more damage with GWW (especially given how strong Smite is with ranged weapons). And that's just comparing them to the vanilla fighter. Compared to a berserker or kensai, it's even worse for the archer.
Also worth noting that there's a +4 returning throwing axe in TOB. It's not as good as Firetooth for raw damage, but it'll let you hurt Demogorgon and the TOB endboss, which isn't a trivial bonus.
Well I was persuaded that Fire Tooth could not be used with a Kensai, but I was wrong it seems.
Still that kit will have 1 less APR due to the lack of bracers, there is no Belm to compensate while using ranged weapon like there is with dual wielding... and so I don't think his GM in dagger matters unless you want to make it rely on GWW
If you do, it actualy get better than an Archer, however
The same way, I was persuaded that Rage desactivated the ranged option... I was wrong too.
Bezerker will probably be the best option for dual classing, then
So:
Without GWW: Berzerker 13/Mage X
With GWW: Pure Kensai
I suspect the kensai is still better. Losing half an attack and +2 damage is probably worth it, given the kensai's damage bonus. But we don't have to speculate. We can do math.
Fire Tooth does a base of 2d4+3, +1d2 fire, damage per hit. That's an average of 9.5, and a max of 13.
Assuming 22 strength, we get +10 damage on that front, and a level 30 kensai, so they're at +7 to damage (it does eventually get higher, of course, but this is probably a happy medium level).
So the kensai approximately wins, but not by all that much unless they're using kiai. This tends to get more in the kensai's favor as level increases from 30, and more in the berserker's favor as level decreases. More or less.
You can also dual a Kensai into a Thief for the Use Any Item HLA.
But don't the Kensai's weapon restrictions prevent you from taking proficiency points in bows/crossbows while raising Thief levels? If a Cleric dual classes to Thief, I can only take club, quarterstaff, and sling proficiencies.
Are you sure that throwing knives get the strength bonuses? I keep reading that they do but I've tried both the boomerang dagger and firetooth dagger in game and they never got them (in the display window or in actual damage dealt). Am I missing a patch or something?
@Jarrakul I don't understand your calculation earlier
Some pointed out that you can't use a offhand weapon with a throwing weapon, so the best unbuffed APR you can get is 3.5 (3 for Kensai)
Also, for the Kensai using kai, where comes the second +10 damage bonus?
A full Kensai does 36.5 DPH on a 3 APR base as shown by @Arunsun testing. That's:
- 7.5 average from the weapon
- 5 from grand mastery
- 13 from capped kensai levels
- 11 from strength
Sustained damage will be: 36.5 x 3 = 109.5
Burst damage (GWW) will be: 36.5 x 10 = 365 DPR
Now, let's take a Berzerker... who has only 27.5 DPH on a 3.5 APR base:
- 7.5 average from the weapon
- 5 from grand mastery
- 2 from GoEWS
- 2 from Rage
- 11 from strength
Sustained damage will be: 27.5 x 3.5 = 89.25
Burst damage (GWW) will be: 27.5 x 10 = 275 DPR
On the base, Kensai is way better... but:
1- Against any enemy without True Sight, the Berzerker can use the Vailor's Helm and double it's output, crushing the Kensai in both sustained and burst damage
2- In solo, the Berzerker can have Rage and Improved Haste, doubling his sustained damage output and allowing to take down mage even if they use Imprisonement
So, I'll say a B13/M is better regarding ranged potential than Kensai in solo, but Kensai is better as a party member.
Too bad that Energy Blades don't get STR bonuses to damage...
@Jarrakul I don't understand your calculation earlier
Some pointed out that you can't use a offhand weapon with a throwing weapon, so the best unbuffed APR you can get is 3.5 (3 for Kensai)
Also, for the Kensai using kai, where comes the second +10 damage bonus?
A full Kensai does 36.5 DPH on a 3 APR base as shown by @Arunsun testing. That's:
- 7.5 average from the weapon
- 5 from grand mastery
- 13 from capped kensai levels
- 11 from strength
Sustained damage will be: 36.5 x 3 = 109.5
Burst damage (GWW) will be: 36.5 x 10 = 365 DPR
Now, let's take a Berzerker... who has only 27.5 DPH on a 3.5 APR base:
- 7.5 average from the weapon
- 5 from grand mastery
- 2 from GoEWS
- 2 from Rage
- 11 from strength
Sustained damage will be: 27.5 x 3.5 = 89.25
Burst damage (GWW) will be: 27.5 x 10 = 275 DPR
On the base, Kensai is way better... but:
1- Against any enemy without True Sight, the Berzerker can use the Vailor's Helm and double it's output, crushing the Kensai in both sustained and burst damage
2- In solo, the Berzerker can have Rage and Improved Haste, doubling his sustained damage output and allowing to take down mage even if they use Imprisonement
So, I'll say a B13/M is better regarding ranged potential than Kensai in solo, but Kensai is better as a party member.
Too bad that Energy Blades don't get STR bonuses to damage...
Technically both have more APR, even without improved haste, because throwing daggers have 2 base APR, which makes 4APR with grandmastery at level 13, 4.5 with the gloves (and thus close to permanent GWW if using improved haste).
One could as well consider Kensai(13)/Mage as well, for more damage. Immunities can come from mage spells as well.
Ok, 2 base APR on throwing daggers. That's what I was the information I was missing, thanks
... but why in your screenshot on the ranged kensai, you had only 2.5 APR ? Throwing hammers only get 1APR?
For Ranged damage, a Kensai 13/M will never make more damage than a B13/M:
- Bonus damage are the same (+4 from kensai levels vs +2 from bracer +2 from Rage)
- Berzerker will gain +0.5 APR that it doesn't get for melee due to the 5APR hard cap, which is better than Kai
Ok, 2 base APR on throwing daggers. That's what I was the information I was missing, thanks
... but why in your screenshot on the ranged kensai, you had only 2.5 APR ? Throwing hammers only get 1APR?
For Ranged damage, a Kensai 13/M will never make more damage than a B13/M:
- Bonus damage are the same (+4 from kensai levels vs +2 from bracer +2 from Rage)
- Berzerker will gain +0.5 APR that it doesn't get for melee due to the 5APR hard cap, which is better than Kai
Throwing hammer, axes and crossbows have 1 base APR
Throwing daggers and bows have 2 base APR
Darts have 3 base APR.
I did actually screw up the kiai calculation. The second +10 comes from being a 40th level kensai, which is contrary to my previously stated assumptions. The correct math is as follows:
What would be the best HLAs for a ranged attacker? I was thinking Greater Whirlwind, but perhaps the one that confers crits would be better?
Critical Strike, GWW, and Smite are all useful, even Greater Deathblow has its applications.
It depends on how your setup is. It's not that hard to get very high APR with the right weapon and Improved Haste, which may make GWW redundant. Then again, ranged THAC0 tends to be very good so CS faces diminishing returns against crit-immune enemies. Smite doesn't work against everything, same with GDB.
But don't the Kensai's weapon restrictions prevent you from taking proficiency points in bows/crossbows while raising Thief levels? If a Cleric dual classes to Thief, I can only take club, quarterstaff, and sling proficiencies.
I was thinking more for gauntlets to get another 0.5 APR.
I wonder which could be the best build to use The Brick...
I thought about WS13/Mage, but is it truly the best choice? WS is going to normaly shutdown the spellcasting of the target, so the Wild Magic effect is not truly interesting
On the other side, an Archer cannot get more than 1 point of proefficiency, which make lose 5 damage and 1APR, but there is that thing... Called Shot, which is going to lower the Saves vs Spells by 1 at each hit... with GWW, that's -10 save vs spell, which should make the on-hit effect of The Brick much more probable
@Aewyrven: Why put points in two different melee weapon styles without putting any points in specific melee weapons?
Has 5 in sling. Hins gain bonus to slings Hin also gains bonus to dex which iirc adds to thac0 (hit) Has 2 in single weapon use for ac and more importantly critical now on 19 and 20 (don't need a shield on since you want damage and are standing back anyways so the ac isn't that important)
Threw in 2hd sword because of the reach it has so you can still ni-Hao and charge in tapping over a tanks back if you want or abuse the APR and swap to a big gooey vorpal weapon if something comes close.
Edit: besides, who doesn't like a furry midget with a giant sword bigger than they are?
I will admit I misread the single weapon but I'd still keep the 2hd. It's not as if you don't have the spare prof points right off the start to fill in for something else.
Comments
I'm trying to put everything together:
1- THAC0 is rarely an issue by the end of the game, so only damage is important
2- Throwing weapons can get a strength bonus, so they are better damage-wise per hit than "launcher" weapons
3- In throwing weapon, only Fire Tooth and Crisom Dart provide an infinite +3 supply
=> Fire Tooth and throwing dagger proefficiency seems to be the winner (if you exclude the rare foes needing a +4 weapon)
For the class:
Method A (no GWW):
1- Grand Mastery in throwing daggers is something only a plain Fighter and Wizard Slayers can have (+1APR)
2- Fighter can use also the Gauntlet of Extraordinary Weapon Specialization (+0.5 APR)
So, it seems for me than a dual class Fighter 13/Mage is still a very powerful combination for ranged potential maximization... 3.5 base APR, plus Improved Haste => 7 APR, which is the highest possible without GWW and using throwing daggers
Method B (with GWW):
Using GWW, the solo-class Archer is the best user of throwing daggers due to its damage bonus (up to +10?)
I think there are other returning weapons as well.
There is no throwing dagger proficiency. Any fighter kit can achieve GM in daggers.
I don't think Archer bonuses apply to throwing daggers.
Also worth noting that there's a +4 returning throwing axe in TOB. It's not as good as Firetooth for raw damage, but it'll let you hurt Demogorgon and the TOB endboss, which isn't a trivial bonus.
Still that kit will have 1 less APR due to the lack of bracers, there is no Belm to compensate while using ranged weapon like there is with dual wielding... and so I don't think his GM in dagger matters unless you want to make it rely on GWW
If you do, it actualy get better than an Archer, however
The same way, I was persuaded that Rage desactivated the ranged option... I was wrong too.
Bezerker will probably be the best option for dual classing, then
So:
Without GWW: Berzerker 13/Mage X
With GWW: Pure Kensai
Does it sounds right?
Fire Tooth does a base of 2d4+3, +1d2 fire, damage per hit. That's an average of 9.5, and a max of 13.
Assuming 22 strength, we get +10 damage on that front, and a level 30 kensai, so they're at +7 to damage (it does eventually get higher, of course, but this is probably a happy medium level).
Fighter: 9.5+5+2+10 = 26.5, APR 2+1+1+.5 = 4.5, average DPR = 26.5*4.5 = 119.25
Berserker (raging): 9.5+5+2+10+2 = 28.5, APR 2+1+1+.5 = 4.5, average DPR = 128.25
Kensai: 9.5+5+7+10 = 31.5, APR 2+1+1 = 4, average DPR = 126
Kensai (kiai): 13+5+10+10 = 38, APR 2+1+1 = 4, average DPR = 152
So the kensai approximately wins, but not by all that much unless they're using kiai. This tends to get more in the kensai's favor as level increases from 30, and more in the berserker's favor as level decreases. More or less.
https://forums.beamdog.com/discussion/41022/ranged-kensai-is-awesome
31-36 x 10 using GWW.... it probably hurts a lot ^^
It's hard to do better, I think. At least for a party use.
Solo use would bring some difficulties
But don't the Kensai's weapon restrictions prevent you from taking proficiency points in bows/crossbows while raising Thief levels? If a Cleric dual classes to Thief, I can only take club, quarterstaff, and sling proficiencies.
Some pointed out that you can't use a offhand weapon with a throwing weapon, so the best unbuffed APR you can get is 3.5 (3 for Kensai)
Also, for the Kensai using kai, where comes the second +10 damage bonus?
A full Kensai does 36.5 DPH on a 3 APR base as shown by @Arunsun testing. That's:
- 7.5 average from the weapon
- 5 from grand mastery
- 13 from capped kensai levels
- 11 from strength
Sustained damage will be: 36.5 x 3 = 109.5
Burst damage (GWW) will be: 36.5 x 10 = 365 DPR
Now, let's take a Berzerker... who has only 27.5 DPH on a 3.5 APR base:
- 7.5 average from the weapon
- 5 from grand mastery
- 2 from GoEWS
- 2 from Rage
- 11 from strength
Sustained damage will be: 27.5 x 3.5 = 89.25
Burst damage (GWW) will be: 27.5 x 10 = 275 DPR
On the base, Kensai is way better... but:
1- Against any enemy without True Sight, the Berzerker can use the Vailor's Helm and double it's output, crushing the Kensai in both sustained and burst damage
2- In solo, the Berzerker can have Rage and Improved Haste, doubling his sustained damage output and allowing to take down mage even if they use Imprisonement
So, I'll say a B13/M is better regarding ranged potential than Kensai in solo, but Kensai is better as a party member.
Too bad that Energy Blades don't get STR bonuses to damage...
Technically both have more APR, even without improved haste, because throwing daggers have 2 base APR, which makes 4APR with grandmastery at level 13, 4.5 with the gloves (and thus close to permanent GWW if using improved haste).
One could as well consider Kensai(13)/Mage as well, for more damage. Immunities can come from mage spells as well.
... but why in your screenshot on the ranged kensai, you had only 2.5 APR ? Throwing hammers only get 1APR?
For Ranged damage, a Kensai 13/M will never make more damage than a B13/M:
- Bonus damage are the same (+4 from kensai levels vs +2 from bracer +2 from Rage)
- Berzerker will gain +0.5 APR that it doesn't get for melee due to the 5APR hard cap, which is better than Kai
Throwing hammer, axes and crossbows have 1 base APR
Throwing daggers and bows have 2 base APR
Darts have 3 base APR.
Kensai (kiai): 13+5+7+10 = 38, APR 2+1+1 = 4, average DPR = 140
Which doesn't actually change my conclusions in a substantive way.
It depends on how your setup is. It's not that hard to get very high APR with the right weapon and Improved Haste, which may make GWW redundant. Then again, ranged THAC0 tends to be very good so CS faces diminishing returns against crit-immune enemies. Smite doesn't work against everything, same with GDB.
I usually just pick a mix of GWW and CS.
I thought about WS13/Mage, but is it truly the best choice? WS is going to normaly shutdown the spellcasting of the target, so the Wild Magic effect is not truly interesting
On the other side, an Archer cannot get more than 1 point of proefficiency, which make lose 5 damage and 1APR, but there is that thing... Called Shot, which is going to lower the Saves vs Spells by 1 at each hit... with GWW, that's -10 save vs spell, which should make the on-hit effect of The Brick much more probable
Base ToB roll new char/game looks potentially silly.... and since you have 2hd weapon spec you can still unload some hurt if something gets close.
Seriously.... that thac0 and the save throws.....
Edit: reds because I threw on the sling +3 it has in the bag of holding.
Hins gain bonus to slings
Hin also gains bonus to dex which iirc adds to thac0 (hit)
Has 2 in single weapon use for ac and more importantly critical now on 19 and 20 (don't need a shield on since you want damage and are standing back anyways so the ac isn't that important)
Threw in 2hd sword because of the reach it has so you can still ni-Hao and charge in tapping over a tanks back if you want or abuse the APR and swap to a big gooey vorpal weapon if something comes close.
Edit: besides, who doesn't like a furry midget with a giant sword bigger than they are?