Maximizing ranged potential for non-Archer?
Philhelm
Member Posts: 473
I have Paladins in mind, but this could apply to Fighters and other Rangers as well.
In Neverwinter Nights (3rd Edition D&D), the Paladin had some good synergies that could make him one of the best ranged attackers in the game, by choosing the right Feats. Zen Archery would allow the Paladin to use WIS instead of DEX to determine ranged attack bonuses. More importantly, Divine Might (use a Turn Undead attempt to add +CHA bonus divine damage for +CHA bonus rounds), allowed the Paladin to add a high base damage to ranged attacks. With a high enough CHA from attribute assignment, items, and spells, he could easily get around a 15 bonus to base damage.
Anyway, I'd like to make a crossbow-wielding Paladin with maximum ranged potential. Off the top of my head, the only things I can think of are:
1. 18 DEX (obviously);
2. Two pips in Crossbows (obviously);
3. Gauntlets of Extraordinary Weapon Specialization (+1 Thac0, +2 Damage, +1/2 APR);
4. Firetooth Crossbow;
5. Bolts of Piercing, or other high damage bolts;
6. Helmet or Ioun Stone that adds to Thac0;
7. HLAs: Whirlwind, followed by nothing but Greater Whirlwind;
8. ???
In Neverwinter Nights (3rd Edition D&D), the Paladin had some good synergies that could make him one of the best ranged attackers in the game, by choosing the right Feats. Zen Archery would allow the Paladin to use WIS instead of DEX to determine ranged attack bonuses. More importantly, Divine Might (use a Turn Undead attempt to add +CHA bonus divine damage for +CHA bonus rounds), allowed the Paladin to add a high base damage to ranged attacks. With a high enough CHA from attribute assignment, items, and spells, he could easily get around a 15 bonus to base damage.
Anyway, I'd like to make a crossbow-wielding Paladin with maximum ranged potential. Off the top of my head, the only things I can think of are:
1. 18 DEX (obviously);
2. Two pips in Crossbows (obviously);
3. Gauntlets of Extraordinary Weapon Specialization (+1 Thac0, +2 Damage, +1/2 APR);
4. Firetooth Crossbow;
5. Bolts of Piercing, or other high damage bolts;
6. Helmet or Ioun Stone that adds to Thac0;
7. HLAs: Whirlwind, followed by nothing but Greater Whirlwind;
8. ???
2
Comments
***** in axes
Bg1 get returning throwing axe +2
Get the same in early BG2
Upgrade to a +3 throwing axe by working for Bodhi
In ToB upgrade to a +4 returning throwing axe that can do an extra 2d6 damage with knock back
Put extra * in daggers. That way you can switch to the dagger with fire damage when needed.
As a Kensai you can do max damage with every throw. Your Thaco will be extremely low so you will usually hit. Your apr with improved haste will be ridiculous. Add in the HLA that makes everything a critical hit and you will be a beast with a throwing weapon.
And God help anyone who closes the gap...
1. Archer (Obviously!!!)
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2. Blackguard (Ranged poison damage, DUHM Dex bonus);
3. Fighter (Grandmastery);
4. Kensai (Grandmastery, no armor gives edge to Fighter);
5. Undead Hunter (DUHM Dex bonus, +3 ranged hit/damage against Undead);
6. Paladin (DUHM Dex bonus);
7. Beast Master (Animal summons have synergy with ranged attacks, Entangle);
8. Stalker (Access to Haste spell (iirc), Entangle);
8. Ranger (Entangle);
9. Inquisitor (No DUHM);
8. Berserker;
9. Cavalier (can only use throwing weapons).
My ranking is obviously up for debate, but I was focusing on bows and crossbows to the exclusion of slings and throwing weapons, so the Ranger would necessarily be a superior "archer" compared to the Cavalier (who probably shouldn't be allowed to use throwing weapons to begin with).
I rated the Berserker low since he only gets 1 pip in ranged weapons (iirc). His rage ability might be powerful, but it doesn't really effect his ranged ability. Having said that, I used secondary abilities in order to break ties, such as between the Undead Hunter and the Paladin. The Undead Hunter would be able to do an additional +3 to hit/damage against undead at range, so is rated slightly higher than the Paladin. Similarly, the Fighter and Kensai would be near identical, but the Fighter can wear any armor. Other than that, my primary focus was about the best Thac0 and damage each Warrior class can squeeze out of a bow/crossbow.
I had a suspicion that was the case, but couldn't remember since I've never played as a Kensai. So yes, the Kensai would go to the bottom.
I suppose I could simplify the rankings of bow/crossbow ability as follows:
1. Archer;
2. Blackguard (DUHM, Poison);
3. Fighter (Grandmastery);
4. Undead Hunter / Paladin (DUHM, Slight edge to Undead Hunter with +3 ranged hit/damage vs. undead);
5. Beast Master / Stalker (Animal summoning, Haste, Entangle);
6. Ranger (Entangle);
7. Inquisitor (Specialization, No DUHM);
8. Berserker (Low proficiency);
9. Kensai / Cavalier (Cannot use bows/crossbows).
If you go the evil route you end up with S22 and D21. Stats that make your daggers insanely dangerous.
I think that the throwing knives would work well for a halfling. In fact, there was a little person in Howling 2 who used throwing knives. Howling 2 had a brief RPG moment when they marched toward the werewolf castle with torches: Christopher Lee as a paladin, a priest/cleric with a silver axe, a "Halfling" thief, etc.
A dwarven Kensai with throwing axes/hammers would work too.
Elves would be throwing dil...pickles.
A good point, and I agree.
Regarding HLAs, would people agree that Greater Whirlwind would be best for ranged attacks, or would some of the others have use as well?
As far as I have checked online, it seems than when you shoot with an ammo-based weapon, the level of enhancement of the ammo counts toward foe's specific immunities, not the level of enhancement of the weapon.
It leads to the following situation: Almost all ranged weapons sucks against every foes requiering a +3 or more, the exceptions being:
- Fire Tooth and Crimson dart, which generate an endless supply of +3 ammo
- Gesen Bow, which generate an endless supply of +4 ammo
- Slings, who have +4 ammo sold in number, but you can't drag an infinite supply and it will drain your gold
There is absolutly NO ranged weapon that can deal with an Absolute Immunity
That's why I asked in my other thread ideas for an "Arcane Archer", because, as far I see, the only way a ranged character can damage someone with a immunity to every weapon under +5 is to use Energy Blades
If you give up dealing with ennemies requiering a +5 weapon, the best bet is to specialize in Short Bows for the Gesen Bow which is the only weapon providing infinite +4 ammo... and one of the unlimited ammo weapon that get accessible relatively early, in addition.
Crossbows could seems nice... until you land against a foe that will litteraly ignore every of your shots
Sounds good! I will say this though...
BG1 you are stuck with normal throwing daggers
BG2 Pickpocket or do the wish quest to get a returning +2 throwing dagger (boomerang dagger) asap. Otherwise buy lots of mundane poisoned throwing daggers.
BG2 Ust Natha has a +3 throwing dagger that does 1-2 fire damage (firetooth). You won't find a better one in the saga.
I'm pretty sure that SoD will let us dual wield with throwing weapons. So you can get Crom in your offhand for 25 strength. That, combined with a throwing dagger is insane.
Otherwise a very fun combination to have for this kensai is this:
Reflection Shield +1 (reflects all missile weapons back)
Cloak of Mirroring (reflects all spell damage back)
Boots of Speed
Gauntlets of Extraordinary Specialization (+1/2 attack/round, +1 THACO, +2 damage)
That is a real beast right there. You'll be faster that everyone else so kiting is easy. Reflect all ranged damage back. Only disablers are of any concern...but there are ways around that. A very annoying charname to go against!
Also worth noting that, when unloaded, the Shortbow of Gesen, deals piercing damage instead of missile damage, so it can hurt some enemies that are immune to every other ranged weapon in the game.
Is it truly maximizing potential that to end with ennemies that you can't even wound?
And the Erinne Sling can generate infinite +4 bullets. And an EE item can create Minute Meteors for anyone besides a Wizard Slayer. Ranged weapons do have high enchantment values.
By this logic, and the timing of the lesser demon lord encounter, maces and quarterstaves (if you're a mage) are the only correct weapon choice in the game (they're the only weapon type that can hurt clay golems and have a +5 version available before the lesser demon lord encounter). The truth of the matter is that the enemies you need +5 for are rare and unimportant, and frankly you have party members to deal with them. Considerations of optimality should take into account the whole game, not just edge cases.
I agree for the most part, and it's certainly true in BG1. The problem is in BG2, where there is access to belts conferring 20+ STR. Since DEX doesn't confer bonus damage to ranged attacks, it becomes harder to justify using ranged weapons as a primary unless its an Archer.
Extra APR
Applies strength damage (axes and hammers don't though it should be fixed in 2.0)
You can get Boomy dagger rather early
However once 2.0 is here, Hammer will become huge as well, with The Brick being very, very good once it applies STR.
Once STR works however I believe throwing weapons will certainly overwhelm bows.
Slings are quite a good call, despite it'll make you a "big sissy"
You cannot equip a throwing weapon and an offhand weapon at once anyway.