Review sites would publish thinly veiled bioware marketing press releases stating that the game was very good when a lot fans reacted angrily to seeing videos of the new gameplay. This example: http://kotaku.com/5692653/dont-worry-dragon-age-ii-is-for-you-too is NOT worthy of being called journalism,
Bioware employee's posed as anonymous fans on metacritic and posted glowing reviews in order to boost thier average user review score.
And even more insidiously: Dismissing fans who criticised the game as being homophobic. There unfortunately is always going to be a very small minority of people who write crazy, hateful things about gay romances, but the vast vast majority of criticism was not aimed at this. However he focus of bioware's response to the criticism what to cherry pick horrible examples of obvious trolls as examples of a "disgruntled fan", then issue staged responses to these individuals (who anyone in thier right mind would just ignore) to news sites to generate negative publicity towards thier own fans.
Not to mention the whole sorry Jennifer Hepler affair. Basically, bioware spent a lot of time and effort waging a war to smear it's own (ex?)fans
@Razor, I honestly did not understand all the hate for DA2. I used to view it as dissatisfaction because DA2 was so unlike DAO in terms of the style and mechanics. Perhaps that is all it is, but then it occurred to me that where it probably originates is the perspective after playing DAO that the PC was everything and the world was just a setting. However, if DA2 presented anything, it was that the world was alive as well, and it offered players the ability to jump into a completely different experience and take part in that world and affect it in a completely different way.
So, it just occurred to me now (based on something David Gaider wrote on the DA3 forums) that if you view the games in this way, that your PC is the center of the game, then it's easier to understand those who were unhappy with DA2. Bioware may not have communicated their vision for the property in a way that gamers understood; they were buying a universe, not just a character to play. When taken in this perspective, that Dragon Age really is not about a single PC, but it's about an entire universe, I think it's easier to see how DAO and DA2 fit together. What Bioware is selling with these games isn't a chance to take a character and progress them through a life and get skills, hoard loot, etc. It's the chance to experience ways in which to alter an entire world through your actions in unexpected and unknown ways.
Taking such a vision for their games is, I think, a risk to be sure because customers expect sequels to deliver more of what players enjoyed about the first game, but merely expanding on the same theme or platform is not what Bioware is attempting with DA2 and DA:Inquisition. In retrospect, they shouldn't have even named it Dragon Age 2 and should have done what they've done with Inquisition. It's a game set in the Dragon Age universe, but not an expansion of Dragon Age: Origins. I think that applying the common idea of a sequel to Dragon Age is a mistake, and that's what let people down. Bioware could have done a better job of leading customer's expectation by explaining this better, and I think if people consider this theory, perhaps they will not look so angrily upon what Dragon Age 2 is, and what Inquisition is destined to be. I have to commend Bioware again for taking a rather ambitious and rather novel approach, but I just don't think people got it and that's not a failing of the game itself.
I hope this makes sense, but I could be talking out of my ass.
This was exactly what I talked about in my post above... How Bioware, Gaider and company completely misunderstands the reasons for the criticism. Honestly, I can't really imagine how people could think DA2 a fun game... It fails in every aspect. It's not a good RPG, it's not good action, it's not good storytelling - it's a bad game. Tomorrow, I will write you a longer post expanding on why I think so, if you want me too. It's too late now, though, I'm tired and risk getting too excited, and I'll have the night to think on how to formulate myself.
Basically, bioware spent a lot of time and effort waging a war to smear it's own (ex?)fans
I think how they're constantly trying to paint any fan critical of or disappointed in their games as "entitled" is most telling of that. You don't have to take criticism serious if you can paint the dealers as childish or spoiled, then you can just dismiss them out of hand.
@vortican - Honestly, I can't really imagine how people could think DA2 a fun game... It fails in every aspect. It's not a good RPG, it's not good action, it's not good storytelling - it's a bad game.
I have to disagree with this statement in the strongest possible terms -- I don't have any problems with accepting the fact that some people like DA:2 and even that they prefer it over DA:O. The reasons that they like it are exactly the same as the reasons that I /don't/ like it, after all...
I just wanted to chime in and say there are a lot of really great, really talented people working on DA3 and I think people will enjoy the game a lot. I'm fairly confident in saying that I think people can expect a different experience than DA2.
I have no idea what the future holds for the company with the departure of the good doctors as far as after this project, but I do know that the core team working on the game are all people who are very dedicated to making greatness and you can still expect that from them.
Dragon Age 3 would appear stronger title had they named it DA:O II. Number 3 has this unavoidable incication that DA II exists. Remembering this makes people angry. As it should!
I liked playing DA2, played it a couple of times actually. I still play DA:O from time to time. I think the issue was that they changed so much from Origins to DA2 that it angered the old school RPG fans that DAO brought in. Then there was the "streamlining" they did, they dumbed down the game trying to expand the audience and not only didn't it work, but it alienated many fans. Between this and the "Artistic Integrity" of ME3, Bioware has pushed away a large number of the core fans that made them a success in the first place.
I have hope that they will learn from past mistakes, but I also know EA is calling many of the shots and I think the good old days of Bioware are gone and may not be coming back. I am interested in Obsidian's Project Eternity and can't wait for more info on that.
I still don't get all the DLC hate. In my opinion, Dragon Age had great DLC and I was happy to pay the money to get it. I'm glad I bought the Deluxe edition though to get the Shale content, but Leilani's Song was a really excellent piece of DLC.
Haters seem to forget something...DLC's are optional....don't want them?, you don't buy them. It's such a simple solution and i don't understand the bile towards them. I for one did not buy any dlc, i just dislike the concept of dlc's, but i won't go around hating on them, i simply choose not to buy them. As to DA:2, i also found it had a lot of flaws as many have stated and i agree with many, but not all of them. Yet rather than sit there and steam and venomise about the negatives, i played the game and still enjoyed it despite those flaws.
@Razor, I honestly did not understand all the hate for DA2. I used to view it as dissatisfaction because DA2 was so unlike DAO in terms of the style and mechanics. Perhaps that is all it is, but then it occurred to me that where it probably originates is the perspective after playing DAO that the PC was everything and the world was just a setting. However, if DA2 presented anything, it was that the world was alive as well, and it offered players the ability to jump into a completely different experience and take part in that world and affect it in a completely different way.
So, it just occurred to me now (based on something David Gaider wrote on the DA3 forums) that if you view the games in this way, that your PC is the center of the game, then it's easier to understand those who were unhappy with DA2. Bioware may not have communicated their vision for the property in a way that gamers understood; they were buying a universe, not just a character to play. When taken in this perspective, that Dragon Age really is not about a single PC, but it's about an entire universe, I think it's easier to see how DAO and DA2 fit together. What Bioware is selling with these games isn't a chance to take a character and progress them through a life and get skills, hoard loot, etc. It's the chance to experience ways in which to alter an entire world through your actions in unexpected and unknown ways.
Taking such a vision for their games is, I think, a risk to be sure because customers expect sequels to deliver more of what players enjoyed about the first game, but merely expanding on the same theme or platform is not what Bioware is attempting with DA2 and DA:Inquisition. In retrospect, they shouldn't have even named it Dragon Age 2 and should have done what they've done with Inquisition. It's a game set in the Dragon Age universe, but not an expansion of Dragon Age: Origins. I think that applying the common idea of a sequel to Dragon Age is a mistake, and that's what let people down. Bioware could have done a better job of leading customer's expectation by explaining this better, and I think if people consider this theory, perhaps they will not look so angrily upon what Dragon Age 2 is, and what Inquisition is destined to be. I have to commend Bioware again for taking a rather ambitious and rather novel approach, but I just don't think people got it and that's not a failing of the game itself.
I hope this makes sense, but I could be talking out of my ass.
This was exactly what I talked about in my post above... How Bioware, Gaider and company completely misunderstands the reasons for the criticism. Honestly, I can't really imagine how people could think DA2 a fun game... It fails in every aspect. It's not a good RPG, it's not good action, it's not good storytelling - it's a bad game. Tomorrow, I will write you a longer post expanding on why I think so, if you want me too. It's too late now, though, I'm tired and risk getting too excited, and I'll have the night to think on how to formulate myself.
Basically, bioware spent a lot of time and effort waging a war to smear it's own (ex?)fans
I think how they're constantly trying to paint any fan critical of or disappointed in their games as "entitled" is most telling of that. You don't have to take criticism serious if you can paint the dealers as childish or spoiled, then you can just dismiss them out of hand.
I think the problem is many fans of DA thought DA2 would be a direct sequel to DAO. When BioWare first announced the game, they said clearly it will not be one and they were taking a new direction (hell they even released a demo before the release to show you how this game would look like). I do not consider DA2 a good game (it was okay at best), but it also did not deserve all the hate it got.
With all the controvery surrounding BioWare lately and with recently announced titles such as BG:EE/BG2:EE/PS:T:EE(hopefully)/Project Eternity/CD Projekt RED's Cyberpunk, I just don't really care about what BioWare has to offer anymore. I feel like we could be entering a new era of excellent RPGs and it's up in the air whether BioWare will be a part of that or not.
That's certainly valid, but I hope that people judge Dragon Age as a whole as well, rather than just dismiss the potential of Inquisition. Since so many people obviously all had misinformed expectations for Dragon Age 2, isn't it likely that Dragon Age: Inquisition may be something completely different from Dragon Age 2, just like Dragon Age 2 was very different from Dragon Age: Origins? That could turn out to be a big positive as well! I prefer to keep an open mind and a positive attitude. There's absolutely no reason that Bioware could not hit Inquisition out of the park.
@vortican: Knowing EA's in control now, I'm not holding my hopes high, to be honest. I expect more rushed deadlines, more DLC milking and more game-breaking bugs resolved later on by patches that create other bugs instead. Sorry, just my experience of being three years on the Bioware Social Network speaking here.
We all come from somewhere, @Kitteh_On_A_Cloud. I've been on the Bioware forums and BSN since they've been around as well, but I've never had any of the problems people reported there. Guess I'm just one of the lucky ones, but our personal experience always informs our judgments.
@vortican: Believe me, I've seen enough. Especially the Bioware Social Network has taught me hoow stupid, whiny, elitist, narrow-minded, greedy and selfish people can be. No kidding. That place is full of poison.
Yeah, BSN has always been a battlefield for "Biocritics" and "Biodrones". Typically Biocritics will criticize every aspect of a BioWare game and if you happen to like something in the game then they will mark you stupid and unworthy. Biodrones, on the other hand, will defend every aspect of a BioWare game and if you don't like the game, then they will question why you are there. These happen everyday on BSN. as long as you keep sane and do not take sides, you will be okay there.
I was shocked about the "real" quality behind Dragon Age 2. Releasing something that dull, bland and lifeless (except dialogues...) looking compared to the witcher 2 was just brave. So i have very little hopes for DA3 if the same guy is in charge who was responsible for a game that could have been developed for the N64... Yes Banjo and Kazooie had more life in it!!!
@NWN_babaYaga: I haven't played the game myself, but from the many videos I have seen, the textures and graphics look terrible. Everything appears 'rough', unpolished. Then the companions...Each of them can be summed up in a few words: Fenris: magehater, Merrill: cutesy bubbly-ness, Isabela: sex, Anders: psycho, etc... I especially hate what they've done to Anders in DA 2. In Awakening he still appeared to be an interesting guy (even though he reminded me of Alistair), but they completely twisted his personality in DA 2. The Mage-Templar conflict was presented way too black-white. I mean, not every Templar possibly wants to destroy every Mage, nor can every Mage be willing to turn to blood magic. And the elves look ugly as hell too.
@vortican: Then I honestly don't understand what the hell those people have seen OR they have vastly high standards. DA:O's graphics look perfectly fine to me. I think DA 2 raped the faces of some of the characters in DA 2, such as Anders and Alistair. Armour looked flat too and they didn't fix the clipping bug either.
I've played far worse than DA2. It was a victim of high expectations. So they had a miss with one game (DA2) - after how much greatness? Still haven't played ME3, so maybe there's a trend, but seriously?
TOR doesn't count. My loathing of it is derivative of the MMO experience.
good graphics dont add any life to a game, it´s the details you dont realy notice while in combat but in exploring mode, when you feel sucked into the scenery because of them imo
@vortican: Believe me, I've seen enough. Especially the Bioware Social Network has taught me hoow stupid, whiny, elitist, narrow-minded, greedy and selfish people can be. No kidding. That place is full of poison.
You think THEY'RE bad, i hope you never have to endure any of the fallout sites like no mutants aloud and a few others. Never have i seen such a bunch of elitist " i know everything, you know shit and your opinion is irrelevant" jerkoffs than those sites. I posted a few times and one post i accused interplay of doing all that fallout ip bs to get money from bethesda/zenimax ,as they would lose in court based on all the evidence i researched about it (it got me interested in ip law for some reason). The ridicule i got was outrageous and luckily i'm old and have thick skin so i took it in stride, told them what i thought of them and never posted again. For anyone who doesn't know or didn't follow this case, at the end of it all, interplay got 1 million or so from bethesda ;-/. nuff said.
They have a small viewership and it's no wonder, when you ridicule and cajole new members by always deriding their posts and opinions. Sad people really, i actually pity them as eventually they'll turn on each other if they haven't already and maybe they'll finally realize what baffoons they've been. It will be like locking a dozen philosophers in the same room for a month with no visitors and only each other for company and by the end you'll find a room full of corpses...macabre but true.
As to DA:O3....i fully intend to follow it and see what they plan for it before deciding. i loved 1, liked 2 despite the flaws as i mentioned before so maybe 3 will be ok...we'll see.
@reedmilfam: Play Mass Effect 3 and you'll see. It'll probably break your mind for a few days, though. Most heavy-invested fans were baffled for a few days, or so I've read.
I've played far worse than DA2. It was a victim of high expectations. So they had a miss with one game (DA2) - after how much greatness?
That´s exactly it. You would expect the company to miss it with their first, second, maybe third game, but not with their tenth or so game, after 15 years in business and title which means to be one of their old school ones, with which they should have the most experience. We all know where the problem lies and that makes me believe, that their games won´t get back to the way they were 10 years ago.
Comments
Day one DLC item sales list:
http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/988966-dragon-age-ii/58369729
Review sites would publish thinly veiled bioware marketing press releases stating that the game was very good when a lot fans reacted angrily to seeing videos of the new gameplay.
This example: http://kotaku.com/5692653/dont-worry-dragon-age-ii-is-for-you-too
is NOT worthy of being called journalism,
Bioware employee's posed as anonymous fans on metacritic and posted glowing reviews in order to boost thier average user review score.
And even more insidiously:
Dismissing fans who criticised the game as being homophobic. There unfortunately is always going to be a very small minority of people who write crazy, hateful things about gay romances, but the vast vast majority of criticism was not aimed at this.
However he focus of bioware's response to the criticism what to cherry pick horrible examples of obvious trolls as examples of a "disgruntled fan", then issue staged responses to these individuals (who anyone in thier right mind would just ignore) to news sites to generate negative publicity towards thier own fans.
Not to mention the whole sorry Jennifer Hepler affair.
Basically, bioware spent a lot of time and effort waging a war to smear it's own (ex?)fans
@ajwz - I think how they're constantly trying to paint any fan critical of or disappointed in their games as "entitled" is most telling of that. You don't have to take criticism serious if you can paint the dealers as childish or spoiled, then you can just dismiss them out of hand.
I have no idea what the future holds for the company with the departure of the good doctors as far as after this project, but I do know that the core team working on the game are all people who are very dedicated to making greatness and you can still expect that from them.
I have hope that they will learn from past mistakes, but I also know EA is calling many of the shots and I think the good old days of Bioware are gone and may not be coming back. I am interested in Obsidian's Project Eternity and can't wait for more info on that.
When the second one was released, I just remembered all the dlc from the first one and it turned me off. I have no interest in the third one as well.
...Oh yeah i know, Its the same reason as a lot of you guys out there.
TOR doesn't count. My loathing of it is derivative of the MMO experience.
They have a small viewership and it's no wonder, when you ridicule and cajole new members by always deriding their posts and opinions. Sad people really, i actually pity them as eventually they'll turn on each other if they haven't already and maybe they'll finally realize what baffoons they've been. It will be like locking a dozen philosophers in the same room for a month with no visitors and only each other for company and by the end you'll find a room full of corpses...macabre but true.
As to DA:O3....i fully intend to follow it and see what they plan for it before deciding. i loved 1, liked 2 despite the flaws as i mentioned before so maybe 3 will be ok...we'll see.