@State_Lemming : From what I gathered from Oster's tweets, the EA's takeover of BioWare was kind of... ugly stuff.
Also, as far as I am aware, Mass Effect 1 wasn't EA in the first place. Don't know about you, but ME1 was a huge leap in quality, then compared to Mass Effect 2, which is STILL a genuinely awesome game, I don't know... ME2 lost its Role Playing aspect. If I wanted a good third person shooter, made from the same time of Mass Effect 2, with even a better story, graphics and gameplay AS WELL as Multiplayer? Uncharted 2 would have been my answer, every single day.
If they kept it an RPG, the market would have been much different. I don't know if it was entirely EA's doing, the decision to go with a much less RPG-focused game for ME2, but there's still that : ME1 - BioWare + Microsoft, ME2,3 - Bioware + EA
It is true that gameplay-wise ME2 is superior than ME1 was... but in general, the evolution of BioWare's games in the last couple of years was from "Epic Roleplaying Games" into "Generic" (without RPG)
Yeah DA2 was released a little more than a year after Origins. Pretty absurd.
What's absurd about it? From my perspective, sequels coming fast is a good thing if it's a good game, and I enjoyed playing DA2. I wasn't thrilled about the reused areas, but it also didn't ruin the game for me either. If people don't like the style, engine, mechanics, etc., that I can understand but those design choices probably had little to do with the time it took to build the game.
It's a bit boring to continue to read "Blah blah blah... EA horrible... Bioware dead.... blah blah... hate DA3... blah... multiplayer console blah" especially since EA bought Bioware in 2007, long before any of these games were released so they all should have sucked if EA was the evil empire they are made out to be.
Blah. The only thing that bothers me about the way Bioware handles these games is the lack of information they communicate to their fans until very late in the development cycle. Probably due to EA, but I wish they'd open up about this stuff sooner.
I know ME1 was pre-EA which is why I mentioned their aspiration for a multiplayer mode even before EA came into the picture. Honestly I don't see much of a gameplay difference between any of the Mass Effects. ME1 was a cluttered mess in the amount of skills and weapons, but at it's core it was still more shooter than RPG. I don't know about you but my defeat of the final boss had less to do with my tactical grasp of the situation and more to do with circle strafing. I take no issue with people arguing about the gameplay changes in Dragon Age, but Mass Effect has always had more focus on shooting than dice rolls.
I think you'll find in the last page or two of this thread I agree with you, and I enjoyed DA2, I'll likely play it again. Whomever's fault it was DA2 was rushed though, and great games get rushed all the time. Fallout 2 and Vampire: TMB were shipped incomplete, and I adore those games, but no one ever gives crap to those devs. :P
@State_Lemming: With the sexbot and Merrill comment I meant to point out how actually good and interesting characters are getting replaced with generic, stereotypical and flat characters. Granted, most Bioware characters DO contain some stereotypical traits, but it never entirely dominates their personality. With DA 2 it was different. You got characters such as Anders and Fenris who just were polar opposites of each other and show little character development during the game. Let me illustrate with an example, namely Oghren. You'd think he's just your typical commoner dwarf (I don't know the right term in English right now, but I mean his personality is far from prudish, so to speak), yet in Origins, during the quest in the Deep Roads, you get to see that he actually really has a sensitive layer to his character. He really cares/cared for Branka and it still shows in Awakenings when you give him that Toy Horse and his wife Felsi comes seek him out. What I mean to say is that he is more than he seems to be, namely a loyal guy with his own insecurities. Anders and Fenris in DA 2, on the other hand, can be summed up in a few words and suffer from little character development. And personally I'll never forgive Bioware for putting in a character as shallow as Isabela. She's just a walking icon for a man's wet fantasies, scantily dressed in clothes that honestly can't even be called 'armour' and with a bust bigger than her head. Also, sex jokes, anyone? She was clearly meant to attract younger male players. Merrill and Fenris were created just as eye candy, it's easy to notice in how polished their looks are in comparison to other elves in-game. Merrill is a horrible stereotype of the typical anime stereotype of a weak girl who only has her cute appearance and big eyes to rely on, of course in combination with a naive and insecure personality. Had they given her glasses, she would've been truly like that typical anime stereotype of 'cute shy girl with glasses' you encounter in almost every shoujo manga catered towards girls. Sorry for the rant, but my hate for DA 2 and Bioware's current shallow behaviour is making me furious from time to time.
@State_Lemming: With the sexbot and Merrill comment I meant to point out how actually good and interesting characters are getting replaced with generic, stereotypical and flat characters. Granted, most Bioware characters DO contain some stereotypical traits, but it never entirely dominates their personality. With DA 2 it was different. You got characters such as Anders and Fenris who just were polar opposites of each other and show little character development during the game. Let me illustrate with an example, namely Oghren. You'd think he's just your typical commoner dwarf (I don't know the right term in English right now, but I mean his personality is far from prudish, so to speak), yet in Origins, during the quest in the Deep Roads, you get to see that he actually really has a sensitive layer to his character. He really cares/cared for Branka and it still shows in Awakenings when you give him that Toy Horse and his wife Felsi comes seek him out. What I mean to say is that he is more than he seems to be, namely a loyal guy with his own insecurities. Anders and Fenris in DA 2, on the other hand, can be summed up in a few words and suffer from little character development. And personally I'll never forgive Bioware for putting in a character as shallow as Isabela. She's just a walking icon for a man's wet fantasies, scantily dressed in clothes that honestly can't even be called 'armour' and with a bust bigger than her head. Also, sex jokes, anyone? She was clearly meant to attract younger male players. Merrill and Fenris were created just as eye candy, it's easy to notice in how polished their looks are in comparison to other elves in-game. Merrill is a horrible stereotype of the typical anime stereotype of a weak girl who only has her cute appearance and big eyes to rely on, of course in combination with a naive and insecure personality. Had they given her glasses, she would've been truly like that typical anime stereotype of 'cute shy girl with glasses' you encounter in almost every shoujo manga catered towards girls. Sorry for the rant, but my hate for DA 2 and Bioware's current shallow behaviour is making me furious from time to time.
When you get a chance could you elaborate on what you didn't like about EDI? I agree on Isabela, in fact I was pretty pleased when she ran off. I might have given her the time of day if she wasn't like you said, pandered to a teenager's hormones.
As for Fenris, Anders and Merrill, I get what your saying, and I think it would've helped if we had more time with them before Kirkwall politics take over in the second half of the game.
I do think you are selling them short though, well maybe not Fenris, but then I in my playthrough I didn't use him that often.
Given Anders' role in the third act of the game, it is kind of tricky to develop him past his political principles, but I do think he develops.
At the start of the game he is pretty passionate about his feelings on Mages/Templars. By the end, after he killed a fellow mage in his spirit mode...thing he kind of goes for the Batman mentality where he is still firm in his beliefs, but any notion he had about enjoying a free life is gone, he writes himself off as a martyr while he is still alive (and in my case still breathing after Kirkwall)
Merrill is only insecure at the beginning as near as I can tell. The rest of her social situations she usually just blunders through in the companion conversations.
If anything her self assurance in helping her people with demons and dangerous mirrors gets her into trouble. I also appreciated the more personal perspective of mages that use blood magic, they are no longer all psychos like they were in Origins, now they can just be people trying to put it to good use, if often failing.
As for their character designs, I don't know, you might be onto to something with the anime similarities. I will say though that big Merrill eyes could come from a lot of things, she could've easily been inspired by some Disney character as well.
Fenris isn't doing himself any favors being a skinny moody guy with an over-sized sword, but at least he has a good reason to be upset. :P
And personally I'll never forgive Bioware for putting in a character as shallow as Isabela. She's just a walking icon for a man's wet fantasies, scantily dressed in clothes that honestly can't even be called 'armour' and with a bust bigger than her head. Also, sex jokes, anyone? She was clearly meant to attract younger male players.
That was the best part of Isabela! I'll forever be in Bioware's debt for having the balls to include a character like her. I thought EDI was stupid although some of her dialogue with Joker was pretty funny.
Oh yeah, it sure takes balls to pandering to the biggest gamer demographic out there. Next up, Bioware shows off their cojony non-conformism by making their default character a white male?
@scriver: Ouch. Now THAT would create some uproar. >_< @State_Lemming: Thanks for your reply and willingness to read my wall of text comments. As for EDI, well, she's designed as your typical sexy robot, right? Also the way she shows off herself when Shepard first encounters her...Also Joker's reaction, lol...Other than her overly sexualized appearance (dat cameltoe), I can't really criticize her, as I think her personality is quite interesting. It IS true though that instead of giving the ME 2 squadmates more screentime and deepening the romances with the LI options, you get EDI instead. It was something that annoyed quite a bit of fans, from what I know. @vortican: I bet you play games in which a bikini on female characters makes them more powerful... >.>
Not being funny, literally every other conversation or party banter in DA2 was basically just not so subtle sexual innuendo or reference. It got really old really fast. I just imagine all the writers huddled round congratulating each other and telling themselves how funny, witty, and clever their writing was. The whole series of NPC interactions just felt like one big developer in-joke that we were all expected to just appreciate.
I admit I don't know how I feel about EDI's appearance, the first time I saw her I thought it was some homage to old sci-fi flicks. Mass Effect already tried my patience with Miranda, who I thought was a solid character, but apparently the camera decided we needed to look at her ass whenever she was talking. I like to count my blessings though, the armor was always pretty tasteful, and Jack even managed to find a shirt in ME3.
To me it makes sense that there is more time with EDI than the old squadmates, since EDI is still relatively new. Mass Effect 3, and I'm not talking about the controversial ending when I say this, is really a game about things ending. The genophage, the Quarian/Geth conflict, and possibly the current life cycle. You have already spent a lot of time with the rest of the crew, and any significant other you may have picked up along the way, there isn't much else that needs to be said.
I think the reason she got a bot was just so they could do that shot of her and Joker looking out on an Edenic world. :P
I thought that the banter involving Varric in DA2 was generally quite amusing. As far as the rest of the characters were concerned including Isabela I did not take them too seriously. The fundamental problem with DA2 was a fundamental lack of depth and subtlety in comparison with DA Origins. There was a constant feel of which random mass of villains is my assigned character and the rest of the party off to bash next. It was entertaining in parts but far from gripping. I am hoping for better things from DA3 but we will just have to wait and see.
Truly, of all the characters, the only one you should take seriously was Avelline, because it's the only one with a more realistic story. And mind you, it is reminiscent to the story of Jaheira in part, but done much better (she still needs what, 7 years to move on after her husband's death? Jaheira needs two days before she starts romancing you! )
It actually perturbed me a bit that I couldn't bang Aveline, especially after I installed a butterface mod for her to make her attractive. Would have been cool to have a bunch of chicks fighting over you in that game.
Like a few Dragon Age characters, I initially didn't like her at all, I always like when when a character grows on me, to me it says a lot about the thought that was put into her.
If you dislike or hate a character even, then that's not bad writing - that's EXCELLENT writing. If you don't care about a character though - THAT is bad writing.
If a fictional character can bring hatred or mistrust in your eyes, then the writing was done properly, maybe that was intended to be so. In Isabela's case though - I felt completely indifferent, didn't care about her, didn't interact with her.
What I don't get is that someone at Bioware clearly thinks she is something special, she served no purpose in Origins and yet they made an effort to show her off. In DA2 they make her essential to the damn plot, so then I have to acknowledge her existence.
Compared to other plot important companions (i.e. Alistair and Morrigan, Carth and Bastila) she is just hollow.
"Oh btw, I stole this book thingy from the Qunari, so now they want to destroy the world because of me!"
Anders, which is the other plot-related character, did something that in the middle ages would be interpreted as :
"Germany and France are fighting again? LET'S BLAST OF SWITZERLAND!" *boom* Why would you destroy, out of the three parties, the one that is not even that much related to your problems? Blast the goddamn templars, what did the poor revered mother (or whichever her title was, forgot her name too) do to you? XD (out of the four personalities of Kirkwall, this Revered Mother was the ONLY I liked)
@vortican: My point just got proven by your seemingly carelessly putting in that side comment about Miranda's butt. Yeah, she's pretty much overrated, just like Liara, who's clearly the writer's pet of the series. Also, add to that your remark about Aveline...Yeah, I'm pretty much done discussing with you, as all you seem to care about are whether a virtual female character is willing to spread her legs for you or not.
Im hesitant in placing my faith to team working on DA franchise. DA II was a very impressive collection of things that piss me off in video games. DA:O was absolutely awesome though. It puzzles me why they pulled..if not 180 degree turn, at least some 75 of em. ((Spoiler.EA))
Fine by me. I don't take video games seriously so naturally I'm not holding characters up to the same standards as real people. It's a game and it's supposed to be a fantasy, not reality. Your comments about my preferences aren't true but I'm not bothered by them in the slightest.
Comments
Also, as far as I am aware, Mass Effect 1 wasn't EA in the first place. Don't know about you, but ME1 was a huge leap in quality, then compared to Mass Effect 2, which is STILL a genuinely awesome game, I don't know... ME2 lost its Role Playing aspect. If I wanted a good third person shooter, made from the same time of Mass Effect 2, with even a better story, graphics and gameplay AS WELL as Multiplayer? Uncharted 2 would have been my answer, every single day.
If they kept it an RPG, the market would have been much different. I don't know if it was entirely EA's doing, the decision to go with a much less RPG-focused game for ME2, but there's still that : ME1 - BioWare + Microsoft, ME2,3 - Bioware + EA
It is true that gameplay-wise ME2 is superior than ME1 was... but in general, the evolution of BioWare's games in the last couple of years was from "Epic Roleplaying Games" into "Generic" (without RPG)
It's a bit boring to continue to read "Blah blah blah... EA horrible... Bioware dead.... blah blah... hate DA3... blah... multiplayer console blah" especially since EA bought Bioware in 2007, long before any of these games were released so they all should have sucked if EA was the evil empire they are made out to be.
Blah. The only thing that bothers me about the way Bioware handles these games is the lack of information they communicate to their fans until very late in the development cycle. Probably due to EA, but I wish they'd open up about this stuff sooner.
Blah.
I know ME1 was pre-EA which is why I mentioned their aspiration for a multiplayer mode even before EA came into the picture. Honestly I don't see much of a gameplay difference between any of the Mass Effects. ME1 was a cluttered mess in the amount of skills and weapons, but at it's core it was still more shooter than RPG. I don't know about you but my defeat of the final boss had less to do with my tactical grasp of the situation and more to do with circle strafing. I take no issue with people arguing about the gameplay changes in Dragon Age, but Mass Effect has always had more focus on shooting than dice rolls.
@vortican
I think you'll find in the last page or two of this thread I agree with you, and I enjoyed DA2, I'll likely play it again. Whomever's fault it was DA2 was rushed though, and great games get rushed all the time. Fallout 2 and Vampire: TMB were shipped incomplete, and I adore those games, but no one ever gives crap to those devs. :P
When you get a chance could you elaborate on what you didn't like about EDI? I agree on Isabela, in fact I was pretty pleased when she ran off. I might have given her the time of day if she wasn't like you said, pandered to a teenager's hormones.
As for Fenris, Anders and Merrill, I get what your saying, and I think it would've helped if we had more time with them before Kirkwall politics take over in the second half of the game.
I do think you are selling them short though, well maybe not Fenris, but then I in my playthrough I didn't use him that often.
Given Anders' role in the third act of the game, it is kind of tricky to develop him past his political principles, but I do think he develops.
Merrill is only insecure at the beginning as near as I can tell. The rest of her social situations she usually just blunders through in the companion conversations.
As for their character designs, I don't know, you might be onto to something with the anime similarities. I will say though that big Merrill eyes could come from a lot of things, she could've easily been inspired by some Disney character as well.
Fenris isn't doing himself any favors being a skinny moody guy with an over-sized sword, but at least he has a good reason to be upset. :P
@State_Lemming: Thanks for your reply and willingness to read my wall of text comments.
@vortican: I bet you play games in which a bikini on female characters makes them more powerful... >.>
I admit I don't know how I feel about EDI's appearance, the first time I saw her I thought it was some homage to old sci-fi flicks. Mass Effect already tried my patience with Miranda, who I thought was a solid character, but apparently the camera decided we needed to look at her ass whenever she was talking. I like to count my blessings though, the armor was always pretty tasteful, and Jack even managed to find a shirt in ME3.
To me it makes sense that there is more time with EDI than the old squadmates, since EDI is still relatively new. Mass Effect 3, and I'm not talking about the controversial ending when I say this, is really a game about things ending. The genophage, the Quarian/Geth conflict, and possibly the current life cycle. You have already spent a lot of time with the rest of the crew, and any significant other you may have picked up along the way, there isn't much else that needs to be said.
I think the reason she got a bot was just so they could do that shot of her and Joker looking out on an Edenic world. :P
Miranda's ass was another very good part of ME2.
Like a few Dragon Age characters, I initially didn't like her at all, I always like when when a character grows on me, to me it says a lot about the thought that was put into her.
If you don't care about a character though - THAT is bad writing.
If a fictional character can bring hatred or mistrust in your eyes, then the writing was done properly, maybe that was intended to be so. In Isabela's case though - I felt completely indifferent, didn't care about her, didn't interact with her.
Compared to other plot important companions (i.e. Alistair and Morrigan, Carth and Bastila) she is just hollow.
"Oh btw, I stole this book thingy from the Qunari, so now they want to destroy the world because of me!"
Anders, which is the other plot-related character, did something that in the middle ages would be interpreted as :
"Germany and France are fighting again? LET'S BLAST OF SWITZERLAND!" *boom*
Why would you destroy, out of the three parties, the one that is not even that much related to your problems? Blast the goddamn templars, what did the poor revered mother (or whichever her title was, forgot her name too) do to you? XD
(out of the four personalities of Kirkwall, this Revered Mother was the ONLY I liked)
Well, at least you did not start the gay romance thread which is now trundling its way through a 26th page......
Fine by me. I don't take video games seriously so naturally I'm not holding characters up to the same standards as real people. It's a game and it's supposed to be a fantasy, not reality. Your comments about my preferences aren't true but I'm not bothered by them in the slightest.