No, hers was half exposed. I think there's a place for both. Zevran was also a whore. Do you feel the same about him? Whores need love too, you know.
Zevran didn't walk around in a thong with a massive penis.
@vortican: Pretty much what @Jaxsbudie said here. I didn't like Zevran all too much either, what with his obvious sexuality and leather fetish. But at least he didn't walk around in a revealing suit boasting his male parts, like Isabela did with her boobs. Also, she sees sex as some sort of snack. How much whorish can you get? Sex is far more than just a hump out of the blue.
No, hers was half exposed. I think there's a place for both. Zevran was also a whore. Do you feel the same about him? Whores need love too, you know.
Zevran didn't walk around in a thong with a massive penis.
@vortican: Pretty much what @Jaxsbudie said here. I didn't like Zevran all too much either, what with his obvious sexuality and leather fetish. But at least he didn't walk around in a revealing suit boasting his male parts, like Isabela did with her boobs. Also, she sees sex as some sort of snack. How much whorish can you get? Sex is far more than just a hump out of the blue.
No, hers was half exposed. I think there's a place for both. Zevran was also a whore. Do you feel the same about him? Whores need love too, you know.
Zevran didn't walk around in a thong with a massive penis.
@vortican: Pretty much what @Jaxsbudie said here. I didn't like Zevran all too much either, what with his obvious sexuality and leather fetish. But at least he didn't walk around in a revealing suit boasting his male parts, like Isabela did with her boobs. Also, she sees sex as some sort of snack. How much whorish can you get? Sex is far more than just a hump out of the blue.
Nope, sorry... DA: Origins was good (though unpolished). DA 2 was terrible, I won't waste time on a game that regresses, I prefer game series that get better with each title, example Assassin's Creed.
Voiced protagonist, with no option to select voice -> check
Art direction the same Dragon Age Biowarian nightmare -> check
@ again with Inquisition, Templars and the Mages -> check
Elves are still considered lower class citizens etc -> check
Some of these above may be false, or change until release, however, i recently came to realize that whatever Bioware does with Dragon Effec Age 3, the world and the lore involved will remain just as uninteresting to me.
I don't understand how you made it through either DAO or DA2 with these complaints. I can understand the frustration over the human restriction, but everything else seems to be an issue with key components of the game, not flaws but style and story choices that have been present in both games.
Also people do not think through their hate of the dialogue wheel, with the exception of Planescape (and really, is Planescape ever NOT an exception?), you could use the dialogue wheel for any past Bioware game without changing the dialogue.
They can keep the dialogue wheel, but i would prefer that over each symbol or choice, it displays exactly what the character is about to say, not something like it. Also, i didn't really like the "kind", "funny", and "angry", selection, it would be nice if there were 3 choices for each temperament.
DA:O did not have most of my complaints. DA2 had them however. And i see that, what i didn't like about DA2 is mostly being kept intact. It's natural i'm not excited about DA3.
I will probably try it out, but i am not raising expectations after seeing Bioware's direction with RPGs :x
I had been waiting for DA:O for years. I'd been psyched about it ever since I first heard about it way back (something like 5 years before it was released). A modern BG! It'll be EPIC! And of course when it came out I played the game to death (my degree suffered a bit). However once it was all done and I was able to look back at the game I realised it hadn't left me with that wonderful feeling I get when I think about BG. No desire to replay it differently or with different characters. No truly memorable plots or quests and no really awesome bad guy (Sarevok, Irenicus? Who doesn't think they are totally awesome bad guys? Now think of Loghain or the dragon. Meh.). I liked Leliana and Alister but that was it. Memorable NPCs in BG? Minsc, Imoen, Keldorn, Viconia, Edwin, Cespenar, etc.
It was obvious that the game had been delayed and tweaked by EA for the console crowd. That immediately stopped DA:O from being a true spiritual successor. They sacrificed something in that change and it was just something you... felt. The romances also SUCKED. I think, after the main story, the romances are the best part of BG2 and DA:O fell on its arse with the romances. Save up some gifts, use them all at once and sit through an hour of dialogue. BAM. Love. Sex. What a waste of time.
Still, I decided to give DA2 a fair shot. I saw straight away what EA had done (ME sold better. Make DA like ME) and I really hate them for it, but I decided to give the game a fair shot. It was okay... but the story wasn't very compelling and the characters not very believable. I had no emotional connection to any of them. The game play was very MMO like as I saw someone else say on page one. So not impressed.
Then of course there was Bioware's attitude towards the fan criticism and my underlying feeling of betrayal. When EA bought them out we were all told "It won't change anything". But it has changed everything. Bioware doesn't make excellent, story driven RPGs any more. They make cheap plastic happy meal toys for the fast food giant EA.
Personally I think CDProjeck have taken over the crown of the true RPG developers with the Witcher and the Witcher 2. Those are real RPGs with some soul and character and have done things not many other RPGs dare to do. But there we go.
It's sad, very sad, but Bioware only exists in name now.
I still think DA:O handled romances better than the ones in The Witcher series, in which a lot of women were just portrayed in a stereotypical sexist way.
Yeah I enjoyed the Witcher, but I had a really hard time taking it seriously. Once the game has you attempt to convince a dryad to have sex with you my serious face is gone forever.
After SWTOR and ME 3 I doubt I will be purchasing anything by EA in the near future. I just don't have any faith in them to produce a quality product any more. I also agree with Drugar about EA's idea of listening to fans. In short, I don't trust 'em.
@NightfallRob: Yeah, the way EA/Bioware shamelessly lied during the promotion of ME 3 is just despicable. Ther wouldn't be any 'magic in space', there wouldn't be an 'A, B, C' ending, and so on...I also disliked how Bioware foolishly kept on defending its so-called 'artistic integrity' as a smoke screen for simply horrible writing. Why can't developers just be honest with their audience anymore?
If people weren't really that jazzed about Dragon Age: Origins to begin with, then it's completely understandable that they wouldn't be excited about Dragon Age: Inquisition. So... why vent about all the things you hated about the series, just to discourage those of us who actually look forward to the next game? I don't get it.
So... why vent about all the things you hated about the series, just to discourage those of us who actually look forward to the next game? I don't get it.
I'm the other way. I enjoyed DA:O a lot. I agree, I don't want to re-play it again (I've managed 3 playthroughs, so it did its part), but remember it fondly. DA2 let me down, but wasn't a horrible game. I'm hoping Inquisition will be good.
The difference is that it went from "must buy" to "wait and see" for me. I think that's fair - they will have to convince me to buy this, where DA:O had me at 'hello'.
If people weren't really that jazzed about Dragon Age: Origins to begin with, then it's completely understandable that they wouldn't be excited about Dragon Age: Inquisition. So... why vent about all the things you hated about the series, just to discourage those of us who actually look forward to the next game? I don't get it.
Kind of reminds me of the Bioware forums, with all of the fans talking about how horrible Bioware is.
@NightfallRob: Yeah, the way EA/Bioware shamelessly lied during the promotion of ME 3 is just despicable. Ther wouldn't be any 'magic in space', there wouldn't be an 'A, B, C' ending, and so on...I also disliked how Bioware foolishly kept on defending its so-called 'artistic integrity' as a smoke screen for simply horrible writing. Why can't developers just be honest with their audience anymore?
Marketing was garbage, but it is another argument entirely to just dismiss the ending as "bad."
However that whole debacle proved there is no pleasing fans, EA/Bioware gave an extended ending to you guys for no cost whatsoever. That is nuts. You never get that sort of thing happening with other media. Sure some movies do it, but with more expensive "Director's Cuts" versions you have to buy separately.
@State_Lemming The only reason that EA/Bioware gave an extended ending was because of the largely negative reaction (putting it mildly) from gamers to the ending of the series. Having spent hours developing the character through ME1, ME2 and ME3 under the assurances that the choices made would have a meaningful outcome within the context of the story - to the conclusion that it would all turn on selecting option a, b or c (with overtones of Deus Ex mixed with an Alice in Wonderland choice) was regarded by a number of persons who had devoted time and money to the game as being extremely irritating. Had EA/Bioware decided to charge money for the PR exercise that was the extended ending this would have caused even greater aggravation and negative feedback. In summary the whole series ended in a bit of a damp squib which was a shame as it had been largely enjoyable until that stage.
ME3 was released in March 2012 and attracted a significant amount of criticism from a large number of persons who had bought the games. Those persons had I presume bought all three instalments and played Mass Effect through to the end. They would therefore have been loyal customers of that game and potentially future purchasers of EA/Bioware games including DLCs to ME3. In addition the weight of negative remarks may well have discouraged potential purchasers who had not bought ME3 at that stage. An announcement by Bioware was made in April 2012 following on from the furore including the following answer: Why are you releasing the Extended Cut DLC? ■Though we remain committed and are proud of the artistic choices we made in the main game, we are aware that there are some fans who would like more closure to Mass Effect 3. The goal of the DLC is not to provide a new ending to the game, rather to offer fans additional context and answers to the end of Commander Shepard’s story. I do not think that the free extended ending was developed out of the goodness of the developers' hearts. Indeed it apparently pushed back the release of other profit making DLC. It was developed and released because Bioware realised that something constructive had to be done to counter the vocal negativity and it was clear that this would have to be provided free of charge. The alternative would have involved a marketing disaster.
@NightfallRob: Yeah, the way EA/Bioware shamelessly lied during the promotion of ME 3 is just despicable. Ther wouldn't be any 'magic in space', there wouldn't be an 'A, B, C' ending, and so on...I also disliked how Bioware foolishly kept on defending its so-called 'artistic integrity' as a smoke screen for simply horrible writing. Why can't developers just be honest with their audience anymore?
Marketing was garbage, but it is another argument entirely to just dismiss the ending as "bad."
However that whole debacle proved there is no pleasing fans, EA/Bioware gave an extended ending to you guys for no cost whatsoever. That is nuts. You never get that sort of thing happening with other media. Sure some movies do it, but with more expensive "Director's Cuts" versions you have to buy separately.
Actually, Sir Author Conan Doyle changed the ending of his Sherlock Holmes series when people were still using gas lamps due to the outcry of his readers at Holmes' death. As for not pleasing me, if you lie to me to get me to purchase something and then lie to others about doing so, and insult me in the process, then magically I will be displeased.
As for the DLC, it patched some holes and that was it. The ending needs Doyle's solution: a re-write. And yes, it really sucked that bad.
@State_Lemming: It seems you haven't been following the ME series as closely as I have. Truth be told, the endings to ME 3 WERE bad. At least, from a writing point of view they were. You just DON'T introduce a new character who plays a major role in the story and acts as a Deus Ex Machina to wrap everything up at the end of the story. I mean, not in the way ME 3 did it. And yes, Bioware/EA DID lie. Mac Walters specifically said they never intended ME as 'magic in space'. Magic happened, or more literally, plotholes happened if you count out the Synthesis ending. Casey Hudson said there wouldn't be 'A, B, C' endings. Guess what? There were only three endings (which didn't make sense). Oh wait, they were RGB endings in three different colours. Hah, didn't notice that tongue-in-cheek joke, Casey. So funny. *ahem*. Now, as for the three endings themselves...They don't make sense. Destroy implies that the Geth and EDI have to sacrifice themselves. Why? Control implies Shepard becomes a tyrant ruling over the galaxy, which isn't really ethical at all. And finally there is Bioware's 'happy bunny ending' in the form of universal mindrape, aka Synthesis, which implies organics can't live together with synthetics. (lolwut, what about the Quarian-Geth issue Shepard resolved, then?) As you can see, the endings are poorly written and therefore I can fully understand the fan outcry. And you know what? We might have gotten 'Fix DLC', but it wouldn't have been needed if the writers weren't high on crack while writing the ending to what could have been a grand finale to an epic science-fiction-inspired RPG series.
I hope you'll forgive me if I don't feel up to arguing about the ending again, since we did plenty of that a page or two ago in this thread.
I actually don't like the "Extended" endings, I prefer the original. But my point was it is really sad to see there effort to please fans so readily dismissed.
I was on team "artistic integrity" when that ending DLC was announced, I wasn't really pleased about it but I appreciated that it is a feature of interactive media that we are taking for granted.
Fact is the Mass Effect team has always cared what fans think, I'm sure you've heard how they researched approaches for the much desired Tali and Garrus romances in ME2 by looking at fan art (the Garrus/Shep nuzzle, for instance). Not to mention every game differs from the last in a way people complained about. Mako ticks everyone off? No more Mako, just a (far more practical) shuttle. People thought ME2 combat was too simple? Expand on it.
I have no problem with people who dislike the ending. The thing that drives me nuts is the sheer hatred directed at the developers. My original point was that the extended endings were and act of goodwill and it is disappointing to see it so casually dismissed when all of Bioware's flaws are highly scrutinized.
@State_Lemming: It's ok, I've been through countless discussions on this subject before. It DOES get tiresome in the end, heh. But it also shows how flawed these endings are and how big their impact was on the audience.
Everyone has their own preferences and I'm ok with that. Yet, just as it is in your right to be supportive of Bioware/EA, it is in my right to criticise them. I am not saying that the developers or the team in general are worthless, I never claimed that. However, I DO ask myself questions when I see how some decisions made by them completely fail to succeed in their goal and basically put off the audience.
Look, what the audience wanted was a logical and satisfying ending. I agree that 'satisfying' is a subjective term which has to be filled in by each person on their own. Yet, 'logical' isn't such a term. At least, not in this context. I have seen countless topics in which people made a list of questions which occurred to them after having seen the endings. Fatal mistake on Bioware's part. An ending to a story should give closure and give answers to some of the most important questions which popped up during the games. I admit, an ending can be a so-called 'open' ending, but that wouldn't have been fit for a setting such as Mass Effect, where there is one, clear goal: defeating the Reapers and restoring peace in the galaxy. But instead, the endings created loopholes and sometimes even didn't make sense at all from a writing point of view. Why does Joker flee? He, who has been by the side of Shepard during three games, now just flees with the ship without there being any clear reason. Just an example of such a scene which appeared weird and illogical to most fans.
People invest in these games. Emotionally, that is. They love this series of games. They love the universe and care about the characters. Is it so much to ask that they then get a logical conclusion to their Shepard's story? Was the Starbrat necessary in the first place? Or did the writing team just write itself into a corner? I don't know. I just know that from what I've read and seen, the fans have legitimate reasons to be pissed off, because they saw all of their emotional investement in this game series vanish in just ten minutes. Would you not have been mad? Plus, there's the monetary side too...180 dollars in total down the drain. That's how most people felt after finishing Mass Effect 3.
When such negative reactions arise in great numbers, it's clear something's amiss. Bioware DID give out extra ending DLC for free and it was very charitable of them. But was it the fault of the fans? Are they really to blame? No, if the writing team had just thought up a better ending to a fantasic game series, there would have been no need for this DLC. I've seen plenty of so-called 'pro-enders' call 'anti-enders' 'elitist', 'snobbish' and 'whiny'. I honestly can't stand that attitude, as it not only indicates narrowmindedness and unwillingness to accept different points of views, it also portrays unnecessary hostility towards possible discussion. I saw most of the 'anti-enders' have legitimate complaints about the game. I have also seen these people liking most of the rest of the game.
The Mass Effect series are beautiful and masterfully made. It's just a pity how a bunch of wrong decisions has made it a series most people will now only pick up when it's finally hit the garbage bin on a quarter of the price. It doesn't deserve such treatment, but alas, it's happened.
I didn't even bother downloading the "extended" DLC (even though it was free). I'm aware that the "new" endings are probably on youtube.com, but I'm still pretty jaded concerning the whole thing. So, it's unlikely I'll ever watch them, and I'll most definitely not be pre-ordering the upcoming DA. In fact, I may do the unthinkable and just wait till it has been out awhile and pick it up later....much later.
Comments
Nexus has mods for that you know.
DA:O did not have most of my complaints. DA2 had them however. And i see that, what i didn't like about DA2 is mostly being kept intact. It's natural i'm not excited about DA3.
I will probably try it out, but i am not raising expectations after seeing Bioware's direction with RPGs :x
I had been waiting for DA:O for years. I'd been psyched about it ever since I first heard about it way back (something like 5 years before it was released). A modern BG! It'll be EPIC! And of course when it came out I played the game to death (my degree suffered a bit). However once it was all done and I was able to look back at the game I realised it hadn't left me with that wonderful feeling I get when I think about BG. No desire to replay it differently or with different characters. No truly memorable plots or quests and no really awesome bad guy (Sarevok, Irenicus? Who doesn't think they are totally awesome bad guys? Now think of Loghain or the dragon. Meh.). I liked Leliana and Alister but that was it. Memorable NPCs in BG? Minsc, Imoen, Keldorn, Viconia, Edwin, Cespenar, etc.
It was obvious that the game had been delayed and tweaked by EA for the console crowd. That immediately stopped DA:O from being a true spiritual successor. They sacrificed something in that change and it was just something you... felt. The romances also SUCKED. I think, after the main story, the romances are the best part of BG2 and DA:O fell on its arse with the romances. Save up some gifts, use them all at once and sit through an hour of dialogue. BAM. Love. Sex. What a waste of time.
Still, I decided to give DA2 a fair shot. I saw straight away what EA had done (ME sold better. Make DA like ME) and I really hate them for it, but I decided to give the game a fair shot. It was okay... but the story wasn't very compelling and the characters not very believable. I had no emotional connection to any of them. The game play was very MMO like as I saw someone else say on page one. So not impressed.
Then of course there was Bioware's attitude towards the fan criticism and my underlying feeling of betrayal. When EA bought them out we were all told "It won't change anything". But it has changed everything. Bioware doesn't make excellent, story driven RPGs any more. They make cheap plastic happy meal toys for the fast food giant EA.
Personally I think CDProjeck have taken over the crown of the true RPG developers with the Witcher and the Witcher 2. Those are real RPGs with some soul and character and have done things not many other RPGs dare to do. But there we go.
It's sad, very sad, but Bioware only exists in name now.
So anyway. DA3? Meh.
I also agree with Drugar about EA's idea of listening to fans. In short, I don't trust 'em.
The difference is that it went from "must buy" to "wait and see" for me. I think that's fair - they will have to convince me to buy this, where DA:O had me at 'hello'.
However that whole debacle proved there is no pleasing fans, EA/Bioware gave an extended ending to you guys for no cost whatsoever. That is nuts. You never get that sort of thing happening with other media. Sure some movies do it, but with more expensive "Director's Cuts" versions you have to buy separately.
The only reason that EA/Bioware gave an extended ending was because of the largely negative reaction (putting it mildly) from gamers to the ending of the series. Having spent hours developing the character through ME1, ME2 and ME3 under the assurances that the choices made would have a meaningful outcome within the context of the story - to the conclusion that it would all turn on selecting option a, b or c (with overtones of Deus Ex mixed with an Alice in Wonderland choice) was regarded by a number of persons who had devoted time and money to the game as being extremely irritating. Had EA/Bioware decided to charge money for the PR exercise that was the extended ending this would have caused even greater aggravation and negative feedback. In summary the whole series ended in a bit of a damp squib which was a shame as it had been largely enjoyable until that stage.
Why are you releasing the Extended Cut DLC?
■Though we remain committed and are proud of the artistic choices we made in the main game, we are aware that there are some fans who would like more closure to Mass Effect 3. The goal of the DLC is not to provide a new ending to the game, rather to offer fans additional context and answers to the end of Commander Shepard’s story.
I do not think that the free extended ending was developed out of the goodness of the developers' hearts. Indeed it apparently pushed back the release of other profit making DLC. It was developed and released because Bioware realised that something constructive had to be done to counter the vocal negativity and it was clear that this would have to be provided free of charge. The alternative would have involved a marketing disaster.
As for the DLC, it patched some holes and that was it. The ending needs Doyle's solution: a re-write. And yes, it really sucked that bad.
I hope you'll forgive me if I don't feel up to arguing about the ending again, since we did plenty of that a page or two ago in this thread.
I actually don't like the "Extended" endings, I prefer the original. But my point was it is really sad to see there effort to please fans so readily dismissed.
I was on team "artistic integrity" when that ending DLC was announced, I wasn't really pleased about it but I appreciated that it is a feature of interactive media that we are taking for granted.
Fact is the Mass Effect team has always cared what fans think, I'm sure you've heard how they researched approaches for the much desired Tali and Garrus romances in ME2 by looking at fan art (the Garrus/Shep nuzzle, for instance). Not to mention every game differs from the last in a way people complained about. Mako ticks everyone off? No more Mako, just a (far more practical) shuttle. People thought ME2 combat was too simple? Expand on it.
I have no problem with people who dislike the ending. The thing that drives me nuts is the sheer hatred directed at the developers. My original point was that the extended endings were and act of goodwill and it is disappointing to see it so casually dismissed when all of Bioware's flaws are highly scrutinized.
Everyone has their own preferences and I'm ok with that. Yet, just as it is in your right to be supportive of Bioware/EA, it is in my right to criticise them. I am not saying that the developers or the team in general are worthless, I never claimed that. However, I DO ask myself questions when I see how some decisions made by them completely fail to succeed in their goal and basically put off the audience.
Look, what the audience wanted was a logical and satisfying ending. I agree that 'satisfying' is a subjective term which has to be filled in by each person on their own. Yet, 'logical' isn't such a term. At least, not in this context. I have seen countless topics in which people made a list of questions which occurred to them after having seen the endings. Fatal mistake on Bioware's part. An ending to a story should give closure and give answers to some of the most important questions which popped up during the games. I admit, an ending can be a so-called 'open' ending, but that wouldn't have been fit for a setting such as Mass Effect, where there is one, clear goal: defeating the Reapers and restoring peace in the galaxy. But instead, the endings created loopholes and sometimes even didn't make sense at all from a writing point of view. Why does Joker flee? He, who has been by the side of Shepard during three games, now just flees with the ship without there being any clear reason. Just an example of such a scene which appeared weird and illogical to most fans.
People invest in these games. Emotionally, that is. They love this series of games. They love the universe and care about the characters. Is it so much to ask that they then get a logical conclusion to their Shepard's story? Was the Starbrat necessary in the first place? Or did the writing team just write itself into a corner? I don't know. I just know that from what I've read and seen, the fans have legitimate reasons to be pissed off, because they saw all of their emotional investement in this game series vanish in just ten minutes. Would you not have been mad? Plus, there's the monetary side too...180 dollars in total down the drain. That's how most people felt after finishing Mass Effect 3.
When such negative reactions arise in great numbers, it's clear something's amiss. Bioware DID give out extra ending DLC for free and it was very charitable of them. But was it the fault of the fans? Are they really to blame? No, if the writing team had just thought up a better ending to a fantasic game series, there would have been no need for this DLC. I've seen plenty of so-called 'pro-enders' call 'anti-enders' 'elitist', 'snobbish' and 'whiny'. I honestly can't stand that attitude, as it not only indicates narrowmindedness and unwillingness to accept different points of views, it also portrays unnecessary hostility towards possible discussion. I saw most of the 'anti-enders' have legitimate complaints about the game. I have also seen these people liking most of the rest of the game.
The Mass Effect series are beautiful and masterfully made. It's just a pity how a bunch of wrong decisions has made it a series most people will now only pick up when it's finally hit the garbage bin on a quarter of the price. It doesn't deserve such treatment, but alas, it's happened.