Actually, if I may contribute some rules lawyerdom to the thread, the AD&D Player's Handbook clearly states that:
"In his travels, a bard also manages to learn a few wizard spells. Like a wizard, a bard's intelligence determines the number of spells he can know and the chance to know any given spell. These he keeps in his spell book, abiding by all the restrictions on memorization and spell use that bind a wizard, especially in the prohibition of armor."
Therefore, I believe the bard's spell casting abilities should remain (if they already are) or be (if they aren't already) INT-based, in accordance to P&P rules.
Sorcerers, on the other hand, are a 3rd Ed. D&D class whose spell casting abilities are CHA-based and they should therefore be so in Baldur's Gate as well.
Actually, if I may contribute some rules lawyerdom to the thread, the AD&D Player's Handbook clearly states that:
"In his travels, a bard also manages to learn a few wizard spells. Like a wizard, a bard's intelligence determines the number of spells he can know and the chance to know any given spell. These he keeps in his spell book, abiding by all the restrictions on memorization and spell use that bind a wizard, especially in the prohibition of armor."
Therefore, I believe the bard's spell casting abilities should remain (if they already are) or be (if they aren't already) INT-based, in accordance to P&P rules.
While we're at it, I'll provide further rules lawyerdom in reporting the P&P effects of CHA. I will skip low scores to make things quicker. It's not hard to figure them out anyway, and I can post them later if needed.
Max. # of Henchmenstates the number of nonplayer characters who will serve as permanent retainers of the player character. It does not affect the number of mercenary soldiers, men-at-arms, or other persons in the pay of the character.
Loyalty baseshows the subtraction from or addition to the henchmen's and other servitors' loyalty scores (in the DMG). This is crucial during battles, when morale becomes important.
Reaction adjustmentindicates the penalty or bonus due to the character because of Charisma when dealing with nonplayer characters and intelligent creatures. For example, Rath encounters a centaur, an intelligent creature. Rath's Charisma is only 6, so he is starting off with one strike against him. He probably should try to overcome this slight handicap by making generous offers of gifts or information.
Now, Reaction adjustment already appears on your character's sheet in Baldur's Gate, though I've never bothered to check whether it is P&P accurate (it probably is and, if it weren't, it should). It is probably what influences merchants' prices and determines whether certain NPCs react favorably or unfavorably to what you say.
# of Henchmen is clearly inapplicable to Baldur's Gate. However, Loyalty base provides P&P support for @AzL0n's proposal to affect morale through CHA. Specifically, the party leader's CHA score could add or subtract from party members' morale score a number equal to his/her Loyalty base modifier. This could either be implemented by the devs, or made soft-coded so that modders could implement it. When implemented, each character's Loyalty base score should appear in their character sheet before their Reaction adjustment.
However, Loyalty base provides P&P support for @AzL0n's proposal to affect morale through CHA. Specifically, the party leader's CHA score could add or subtract from party members' morale score a number equal to his/her Loyalty base modifier. This could either be implemented by the devs, or made soft-coded so that modders could implement it. When implemented, each character's Loyalty base score should appear in their character sheet before their Reaction adjustment.
So, how about giving some +saves against morale failure and fear for high charisma? Penalty seems a bit harsh, but for very low (<6) CHA, why not? Also maybe a very slight DMG bonus (you inspire your followers, so they fight more fervently at your side). Not much, just like +1 for 18 and 19, +2 for 20-24, +3 for 25?
Kivan, Minsc and Xan will not join you if your Charisma/ reputation is too low etc. I get a feeling that the creators wanted to do more of that but they probably found it too hard / too time consuming. You know I wouldn't mind if Charisma had no impact during combat granted that there were more of these instances where your Charisma actually affects the game in a positive or negative fashion.
So maybe Charisma has impact, it is just to easy to put someone else in the topspot. Since the main character is the person the npc's are following, maybe his/her charisma should decide.
Maybe high charisma should sometimes give you the option of avoiding a combat (or does it already? I can't for my life see charisma as a combat stat by any means except of maybe boosting morale.
Therefore, I believe the bard's spell casting abilities should remain (if they already are) or be (if they aren't already) INT-based, in accordance to P&P rules.
Sorcerers, on the other hand, are a 3rd Ed. D&D class whose spell casting abilities are CHA-based and they should therefore be so in Baldur's Gate as well.
To amend my earlier comment, as I hadn't checked myself to see what the AD&D book had to say, I definitely agree with this. Bard's spell casting should be INT based, Sorcerer's CHA based, as per PnP.
I just read somewhere that if your charisma is high enough (I have no idea what the number is) characters who would normally fight/kill each other eg. Dynaheir and Edwin will stay nice and friendly. Add Minsc to the equation and charisma all of a sudden looks nicer.
@Lindeblom: that is possible. maybe it was due to mods but few times in bg2 certain characters did not come to blows and/or i had option to intervene.
it would be awesome to have an ability to calm the otherwise conflicting npc in your party if your charisma is very high. i would really force you to consider 18+ charisma if you intend by all means to have chaotic anomen and aerie/keldorn in your party or edwin and minsc, viconia and keldorn etc... not to mention it would be logical...
- It should give you special, deeper dialogue options with NPC's the way it does (along WIS and INT) in Planescape: Torment that give your NPC's special, permanent bonuses. For example it might be some important insight about themselsves that they had been missing before that now gave them WIS+1. Or, a fulfilled romance that strenghtens an NPC in some way. Sounds gamey and it's certainly not seen in the rules, but it worked like a charm in Ps:T
- It should reduce the effect of reputation on characters leaving your party because of non-matching alignment. For example, if you have reputation 18 and charisma 16, evil characters would only leave your party once your rep' hits, say, 20.
- It should determine the number of followers but less severely than '# of henchmen' in the rules. If you have <9 char, you can only have 5 followers and if you have <6, only 4.
Well cha is the very definition of a dump stat as for now. But boosting the sorc is not a good idea at all. If anything he needs a nerf, too easy to memorize all the useful spells. Boosting bard spells could work though.
It would be P&P inaccurate, though. I believe BG is house-ruled enough as it is without the need to change what actually abides by the manuals, but I advocate the implementation of the morale boost based on the loyalty base score as per P&P. It could easily be done by modders if stats were externalized (which has been requested, btw).
(...) I advocate the implementation of the morale boost based on the loyalty (...)
I agree with that. The thing worth of consideration is to increase the importance of party leader. Relations between him and his subordinates. Every NPC has a special spoken line if he promotes to this regarded position. But being a leader isn't just fun and glory as one could have thought. It is a responsible job.
From immemorial times one of constantly retold stories of P&P D&D party-building is the conflict of antagonisms between paladin and a thief. Between exalted and profane intentions. The charismatic leader could dissolve these nuisances, but still - visible to awake eye. In order to highlight the role of the leader the small, insignificant bonuses could be implemented:
Morale bonuses:
+1 if leader/member are good/good, evil/evil +1 if leader/member are chaotic/chaotic, lawful/lawful +1 for completing personal subquest +4 for romance +x for Charisma- score
-1 for alignment opposites -1 for Intelligence- score significantly lower from the party member -4 for good priests/paladins dealing with evil ones/blackguards.
Every 5 points could mean something, like gaining +1 to attack bonus if the leader has less than 50%HP or turning hostile to vanquish him while the same condition occur ;>. I would love seeing Edwin striking his foolish commander or Viconia attacking poor, poor surface-dweller saying cool line just before making the last hit .
It would, because complicating system of P&P means more counting, rolling, and a waste of time. The cRPG has advantage of making calculations for you.
Don't you agree that dealing with the person of reverse viewpoint can be problematic? I think that the vigorous Priest of Lathander, which encountered Viconia or Dorn will ceratainly not smile broadly, but, as
(...) will execute great vengeance on them with furious rebukes; and they shall know that he is the LORD, when he shall lay his vengeance on them.
Neutral characters doesn't go to the extremes so they would shouldn't receive a bonuses nor alignment penalties, by preferring no side at all.
I am aware of redundant complications I proposed, but mainly my thoughts focused on alignment differences that should be crucial. Even more than balancing the Reputation Score. I presume that some evil characters can see the profit of perceiving them as exemplar commoners, or even heroes.
And lastly, I totally agree what @bob_veng had noticed few months ago.
- It should give you special, deeper dialogue options with NPC's the way it does (along WIS and INT) in Planescape: Torment that give your NPC's special, permanent bonuses. For example it might be some important insight about themselsves that they had been missing before that now gave them WIS+1. Or, a fulfilled romance that strenghtens an NPC in some way. Sounds gamey and it's certainly not seen in the rules, but it worked like a charm in Ps:T
- It should reduce the effect of reputation on characters leaving your party because of non-matching alignment. For example, if you have reputation 18 and charisma 16, evil characters would only leave your party once your rep' hits, say, 20.
- It should determine the number of followers but less severely than '# of henchmen' in the rules. If you have <9 char, you can only have 5 followers and if you have <6, only 4.</p>
Actually, I have notice a few things that are different in the game. Like in candlekeep, the guy you give crossbow bolts to gives you a +1 dagger if you have high charisma and the gnome at the friendly arm will give you 6 potions of antidotes to go kill the spider infestation in her home.
Actually, I have notice a few things that are different in the game. Like in candlekeep, the guy you give crossbow bolts to gives you a +1 dagger if you have high charisma and the gnome at the friendly arm will give you 6 potions of antidotes to go kill the spider infestation in her home.
Comments
"In his travels, a bard also manages to learn a few wizard spells. Like a wizard, a bard's intelligence determines the number of spells he can know and the chance to know any given spell. These he keeps in his spell book, abiding by all the restrictions on memorization and spell use that bind a wizard, especially in the prohibition of armor."
Therefore, I believe the bard's spell casting abilities should remain (if they already are) or be (if they aren't already) INT-based, in accordance to P&P rules.
Sorcerers, on the other hand, are a 3rd Ed. D&D class whose spell casting abilities are CHA-based and they should therefore be so in Baldur's Gate as well.
Score.......# of Henchmen.......Loyalty base.......Reaction Adj. 9_________________4__________________0__________________0 10_________________4__________________0__________________0 11_________________4__________________0__________________0 12_________________5__________________0__________________0 13_________________5__________________0_________________+1 14_________________6_________________+1_________________+2 15_________________7_________________+3_________________+3 16_________________8_________________+4_________________+5 17________________10_________________+6_________________+6 18________________15_________________+8_________________+7 19________________20________________+10_________________+8 20________________25________________+12_________________+9 21________________30________________+14________________+10 22________________35________________+16________________+11 23________________40________________+18________________+12 24________________45________________+20________________+13 25________________50________________+20________________+14Max. # of Henchmen states the number of nonplayer characters who will serve as permanent retainers of the player character. It does not affect the number of mercenary soldiers, men-at-arms, or other persons in the pay of the character.
Loyalty base shows the subtraction from or addition to the henchmen's and other servitors' loyalty scores (in the DMG). This is crucial during battles, when morale becomes important.
Reaction adjustment indicates the penalty or bonus due to the character because of Charisma when dealing with nonplayer characters and intelligent creatures. For example, Rath encounters a centaur, an intelligent creature. Rath's Charisma is only 6, so he is starting off with one strike against him. He probably should try to overcome this slight handicap by making generous offers of gifts or information.
Now, Reaction adjustment already appears on your character's sheet in Baldur's Gate, though I've never bothered to check whether it is P&P accurate (it probably is and, if it weren't, it should). It is probably what influences merchants' prices and determines whether certain NPCs react favorably or unfavorably to what you say.
# of Henchmen is clearly inapplicable to Baldur's Gate. However, Loyalty base provides P&P support for @AzL0n's proposal to affect morale through CHA. Specifically, the party leader's CHA score could add or subtract from party members' morale score a number equal to his/her Loyalty base modifier. This could either be implemented by the devs, or made soft-coded so that modders could implement it. When implemented, each character's Loyalty base score should appear in their character sheet before their Reaction adjustment.
Also maybe a very slight DMG bonus (you inspire your followers, so they fight more fervently at your side). Not much, just like +1 for 18 and 19, +2 for 20-24, +3 for 25?
Maybe high charisma should sometimes give you the option of avoiding a combat (or does it already?
I can't for my life see charisma as a combat stat by any means except of maybe boosting morale.
it would be awesome to have an ability to calm the otherwise conflicting npc in your party if your charisma is very high. i would really force you to consider 18+ charisma if you intend by all means to have chaotic anomen and aerie/keldorn in your party or edwin and minsc, viconia and keldorn etc... not to mention it would be logical...
I am for bigger drawbacks for really low scores.
- It should give you special, deeper dialogue options with NPC's the way it does (along WIS and INT) in Planescape: Torment that give your NPC's special, permanent bonuses.
For example it might be some important insight about themselsves that they had been missing before that now gave them WIS+1. Or, a fulfilled romance that strenghtens an NPC in some way.
Sounds gamey and it's certainly not seen in the rules, but it worked like a charm in Ps:T
- It should reduce the effect of reputation on characters leaving your party because of non-matching alignment. For example, if you have reputation 18 and charisma 16, evil characters would only leave your party once your rep' hits, say, 20.
- It should determine the number of followers but less severely than '# of henchmen' in the rules. If you have <9 char, you can only have 5 followers and if you have <6, only 4.
From immemorial times one of constantly retold stories of P&P D&D party-building is the conflict of antagonisms between paladin and a thief. Between exalted and profane intentions. The charismatic leader could dissolve these nuisances, but still - visible to awake eye. In order to highlight the role of the leader the small, insignificant bonuses could be implemented:
Morale bonuses:
+1 if leader/member are good/good, evil/evil
+1 if leader/member are chaotic/chaotic, lawful/lawful
+1 for completing personal subquest
+4 for romance
+x for Charisma- score
-1 for alignment opposites
-1 for Intelligence- score significantly lower from the party member
-4 for good priests/paladins dealing with evil ones/blackguards.
Every 5 points could mean something, like gaining +1 to attack bonus if the leader has less than 50%HP or turning hostile to vanquish him while the same condition occur ;>. I would love seeing Edwin striking his foolish commander or Viconia attacking poor, poor surface-dweller saying cool line just before making the last hit
Don't you agree that dealing with the person of reverse viewpoint can be problematic? I think that the vigorous Priest of Lathander, which encountered Viconia or Dorn will ceratainly not smile broadly, but, as Neutral characters doesn't go to the extremes so they would shouldn't receive a bonuses nor alignment penalties, by preferring no side at all.
I am aware of redundant complications I proposed, but mainly my thoughts focused on alignment differences that should be crucial. Even more than balancing the Reputation Score. I presume that some evil characters can see the profit of perceiving them as exemplar commoners, or even heroes.
And lastly, I totally agree what @bob_veng had noticed few months ago.