I would agree with you if you said that downvoting a game you have not played is a dick move. But you want the govrenment to make it illegal. Thats just sick! This is something Metacritic should fix - not get the government involved by censoring the whole internet. Trust me,... you dont want the government to control the internet. That would be bad for everyone.
At least we agreed on something. And to calm you down - no, I did not mean "thous down-voting should be executed on spot". But some rules of RL can be applied to situations like this. What would happen if a crowd would stand in front of some shop screaming "do not shop here - the owner supports transsexuals!"? You can not imagine it? But this is exactly what we've got on Metacritic.
Probably you are right and THIS situation is something Metacritic itself has to deal with. When I was talking about law enforcement I though more about situations when people get physical (by which I mean life-threats in mails, attacks on families and so on, which do happen). But digital world becoming more and more "real" - your job, reputation, life can depend on it. Don't you think all of it needs some protection?
I dont approve of what GGers are doing to Beamdog for what seem to be trivial and non-existent reasons, but Beamdog made it worse by choosing to be as divisive as possible in their comments on this whole affair, which only made things worse after the interview. i also understand GGers. Unlike the feminist SJW mob, they dont have the support of the mainstream media, so they use guerilla tactics in order to achieve their goals and send the message.
No, this is not a "guerilla tactic" - it's terrorism pure and simple. Their methods is exactly the reason they do not have public support - they do not protect what they have, but rather try to destroy (literally) what they did not get but count as their own. And blaming victim is never a good tactic either - no matter how stupid the victim is, a crime is a crime (just in case, now I refer to classical example for "victim's fault" of a girl walking at night in a "provocative" dress on a dangerous street). A bully should be put in place, period. Otherwise he will never learn.
1. Find me 1... just 1 comment where someone is downvoting the game for supporting transexuals. Has someone really said: "I dont support this game because there is a transexual in it"
Seriously??
Nobody cares if the game supports transexuals. Its the SJW politics that people are reacting to, and you know it. Dont pretend like this is a witch hunt on the transexuals, because its not.
There are already laws against online threats. You can go to jail for those.
Also, this is a cultural war. There are two sides at war. GGers (or anti-SJWs as I like to call myself) and SJWs. In war there is such a thing called colleteral damage. I don't like it, but I wouldnt put all the blame for the destruction that is happening only on one side. GGers are more than willing to talk. Its the other side that doesnt want to talk and is throwing rocks at us at every turn. Although I have to be honest... this is one of the few times I actually disagree with what GG is doing. I honestly believe they just over-reacted before even playing the game.
I wish I had a bigger platform so I could talk with someone about it and put a stop to this madness before we lose BG forever, but... I am really a small nobody in the GG community. I doubt anyone would listen to me, even if I told them to stop and give the game a chance.
No, no and no! To all of it. 1. This is exactly why I call GGers cowards - they all talk about transsexual character but trying to justify their hate "with reasons". The guy on Steam openly asking to remove transsexual character from his game is at least honest. And, btw, if I recall nobody even called him a transofob - the discussion staid civilized (for some time at least). And he did not downvoted the game for a presence of said character. But GGers? No! They will bash developers, say anything about "bad writing" but would never admit their real problem. 2. "There are already laws against online threats. You can go to jail for those." - "Can" is a key word. And I think it's good something is done about protecting lives. Now, what about property and reputation? 3. THIS IS NOT A WAR! And this is exactly the problem - GGers DECLARED it's a war, THEY started to attack those they declared their opponents and demand attention by war tactics. They did not talk, they did not try to reason - they attack and demand. This is called terrorism. And there is no "collateral damage" in terroristic attacks - only victims. And it has to be stopped.
1) Citation needed. I actually care about how Mizrena comes off to players that are actually trans. If you're assuming my care isn't genuine, despite that I've had discussions on this very forum with self-described transgender folks...what more can I say?
3) Yeah, it sadly is. It kind of became a war on August 28th, 2014, when just about every other video game news site under the sun happened to release articles proclaiming that gamers are dead, all about the same topic, on the same day. All told, from August 28th to the early part of September, roughly 20 articles were written, either on the same "opinion" topic, or referencing that topic, a vast majority of them on the 28th.
When you're facing that kind of direct, coordinated broadside salvo from the games journalists, you tell me how it isn't a war? And, again, tell me how GGers declared it as such? Shit, we were caught off guard by the "Gamers Are Dead" day. It got us a lot of new people, too, though.
As for not trying to talk, please look up 'Airplay'. It was a talk, with GamerGaters and the Society of Professional Journalists. It was a peaceful talk, with GamerGate representatives and SPJ neutrals both getting their thoughts out there. Well, it was peaceful until some anti-GGs hit it with an actual, RL bomb threat.
Or, when GamerGaters got together in Washington DC at a local pub to have a friendly gathering and a few beers. But, wait, that got a bomb threat called in on it as well. It's almost like people who don't like GamerGate refuse to let us gather, let us speak.
Oh, and as for not trying to help, please look up how we supported an all-woman game jam for The Fine Young Capitalists after some SJWs doxxed and threatened them. Yeah, that's right! We helped a woman make a game! It's called 'Afterlife Empire', it's on Steam.
So, Mirandel, if you're going to slander the ever living shit out of GamerGate, at least educate yourself on who we are and what we do, without assuming we're mindless harassers who get off on being the internet boogieman. I'd really, REALLY appreciate it.
GG stands for GamerGate. GamerGate is the group of people who believe that when events take place such as Alex Lifschitz giving a speech to a group of games journalism students in which he says that people who enjoy Grand Theft Auto Games deserve to be "broken on racks" before symbolically destroying a copy of the game in front of everyone, that their might be something of a problem with ethics in games journalism.
SJWs are people such as Lifschitz, and those who proudly proclaim things such as "gamers are over", "gamers don't have to be your audience", games should not be fun, and "bring back bullying" on games journalism articles and social media, and then mock the idea that GamerGate is about ethics in games journalism.
SoD is just pretentious and thats what people dont like. It was written to fit a very specific point of view. Dont wonder why it has gotten so much hate. Beamdog team spent to much time in this forum, with BG: EE community. The true BG community wasnt here cause whenever they felt the need to point something out, SJW from this very forum ignored what they said and replied in their usual passive aggressive way that in most cases isnt even an answer. Beamdog team failed when they decided to take guidance on how to make their game by taking into consideration the opinions who infiltrated here since fist year of EE only to push their agendas. I have been here since BG:EE and i own every single Beamdog game on gog and some also on beamdog. I tried many times to express my dissatisfaction with choices they made but every time i stumbled upon walls of certain community members who ALWAYS reply on the same manner. That manner is IGNORING your statement while repeating their opinions. So whenever u try to write something on a forum and u stumble upon 10 people who behave in a *civilized*, *calm* and *pretentious friendly* way, with their only goal to diminish your views, opinions and feelings, its unavoidable that u will stop involving after some time. A big number of this forums users abused anyone that tried to pass a different opinion along, but they did so in a subtle way. Even today every post that beamdog community doesnt like get the sames responses, the same false friendly and civilized replies.
at this point i dont care if i get banned, cause i will prolly never come back here anyway and bury my hopes for BG3 forever, unless the Devs wake up and see how the core supporters of this forums made them believe that they are going the right way.
BG:EE should have continued what Black Isle started instead of trying to patronize every gamer out there.
Sincerely a person with life, friends, work, family and joy that doesnt spent all his day in forums trying to make everything fit his own points of view.
No mate! You are just a neckbeard sexist who hates trans people and women.
The acronym or the group? The acronym stands for gamergate. The group stands for an inability to tolerate any content that they don't politically agree with.
Projecting much?
No. I have never, ever in my life tried to wage war on a developer because I didn't like something they created. I have argued against opinions that I disagree with, but I would never do what gamergate is doing now.
Wouldn't be able to look at myself in the goddamn mirror.
Its not the whole gamergate doing it. I am part of GG and I do not participate in this travesty - in fact I condemn it. So far there have been 111 negative reviews. Even if we assume that every single one of them was written by GGs, its still less than 0,0001% of our community. And I am not even sure its GGers that are behind it. There are people who are not GG and who despise SJWs too, there are trolls, there are modern gamers who dislike anything that does not have the latest uber graphics, etc. I think your comment is inflamatory and divisive - which is exactly what BG at this moment does not need.
And you are ignoring reality. I'm not going to run around in circles with you on this - I've done it before and it's a waste of time. There is only one thing that is relevant to the topic of this thread: there is a concerted effort to sink this game by people who are unable to live in a world that occasionally confronts them with ideas they don't like. It doesn't matter who is doing it or why. There is no excuse for this.
I have no problem with having a transgender character in SoD at all. This is DnD and everyone is invited to the party, end of story. Additionally, I defer all opinions about the implementation of the character to all my transgender brothers and sisters who enjoy BG as much as I do.
I DO think that a gamergate joke being added is in terribly bad taste and immersion breaking. Having the most beloved character in the franchise saying it? Yuck. Gamergate was depressing and had terrible behavior on both sides (IMHO). Extremists spent their energy hurling accusations and poisoning the conversation. They do not represent the majority on either side: those of us who want to live and let live and play fun games! That being said, I made this tiny mod that removes the line from Minsc's repertoire. Just drop it in your override folder. (untested, just swapped the stringref in Near Infinity for the Yes! line)
Also, perhaps some of the statements made in the infamous Kotaku interview were made with a low wisdom score. Very foolish to criticize the beloved game that you're trying to add to. Show me a game that was less sexist in 1998 than Baldur's Gate. (Jaheira... sexist?? I mean, what?).
Finally, I don't care that Trent made one post, most likely because he was really upset and worried. This is one place I feel he is entitled to ask for help - the awesome Beamdog community. Put yourself in his shoes for one second.
End of the day, the game rocks and I'm having a total blast playing it. Can't wait for all this to blow over.
EDIT: I plan on leaving an honest and positive review once I finish my playthrough.
Oh my god....I go to sleep for about 8 hrs and wake up and there is 96 more comments in thread. How can this not be over yet?? But for the record, Siege now has 22 pages of reviews on GOG, which is now more than Pillars of Eternity has had over it's entire release. 350 on Metacrtic, which is nearly 4 times the amount of the latest UFC game released by EA. This is clearly all on the up and up....
Pillars of Eternity didn't deliberately go out of their way to offend their own players. I think that increases the likelihood that people are going to want to say something significantly.
On the other hand, if people are leaving reviews without having tried the game, then they absolutely should not be doing that.
No mate! You are just a neckbeard sexist who hates trans people and women.
What I find highly amusing @redknight is that I made perfectly clear what was sexist about your reasoning and just because you are unable to refute the point you are now pretending that it is just something that people say?
No mate! You are just a neckbeard sexist who hates trans people and women.
What I find highly amusing @redknight is that I made perfectly clear what was sexist about your reasoning and just because you are unable to refute the point you are now pretending that it is just something that people say?
You gave me nothing to refute, but you are allowed to be wrong in your opinions.
Pillars of Eternity didn't deliberately go out of their way to offend their own players. I think that increases the likelihood that people are going to want to say something significantly.
On the other hand, if people are leaving reviews without having tried the game, then they absolutely should not be doing that.
My friend, neither did Beamdog when they created the great game Baldur's Gate: Siege of Dragonspear.
At a certain point, haven't your goals been accomplished?? The user scores on Metacritic have been tanked. It has 2 1/2 stars on GOG, which is horrible. You seem to have gotten what you wanted. Everyone who could possibly care about this game will now see those disingenuous reviews whenever they decide to read up on it. So why is the Gamergate crowd still on these forums, still continuing with this nonsense?? Do they actually have an objective, or do they simply relish the fight?? I suspect it's the later....
At a certain point, haven't your goals been accomplished?? The user scores on Metacritic have been tanked. It has 2 1/2 stars on GOG, which is horrible. You seem to have gotten what you wanted. Everyone who could possibly care about this game will now see those disingenuous reviews whenever they decide to read up on it. So why is the Gamergate crowd still on these forums, still continuing with this nonsense?? Do they actually have an objective, or do they simply relish the fight?? I suspect it's the later....
Why not? Interesting discussion is happening here, and truthfully, I don't want people to not buy BG:SoD. I'd prefer Beamdog apologize for using a beloved character to insult a group of fans, and call it a day. If they can at least *see* where they went wrong, giving them a pathway to future success, instead of doubling down and doubling down, then I'll buy the damn game just to support that, after all, I've heard it's, well, pretty damn good for the most part.
@jjstraka34 we want the game to be changed and become normal. Change all the patronizing dialogs like PoE did when they received complains. Leave all the characters as they are cause they are really interesting. BUT REWORK the text and make it normal, cause every single response in SoD makes me feel like a PC advocate.
@jjstraka34 Part of the issue is that there is no set goal. For either side, I'd argue.
Either side?? If someone walks into my house and starts breaking furniture, and I ask them to stop, am I equally responsible for the argument that is going to ensue?? Because that's what's taking place on these forums.
@jjstraka34 we want the game to be changed and become normal. Change all the patronizing dialogs like PoE did when they received complains. Leave all the characters as they are cause they are really interesting. BUT REWORK the text and make it normal, cause every single response in SoD makes me feel like a PC advocate.
"Become normal"....thank you for admitting what this is really all about. You being uncomfortable and actually wanting a company to CHANGE a game that is already released.
At a certain point, haven't your goals been accomplished?? The user scores on Metacritic have been tanked. It has 2 1/2 stars on GOG, which is horrible. You seem to have gotten what you wanted. Everyone who could possibly care about this game will now see those disingenuous reviews whenever they decide to read up on it. So why is the Gamergate crowd still on these forums, still continuing with this nonsense?? Do they actually have an objective, or do they simply relish the fight?? I suspect it's the later....
Why not? Interesting discussion is happening here, and truthfully, I don't want people to not buy BG:SoD. I'd prefer Beamdog apologize for using a beloved character to insult a group of fans, and call it a day. If they can at least *see* where they went wrong, giving them a pathway to future success, instead of doubling down and doubling down, then I'll buy the damn game just to support that, after all, I've heard it's, well, pretty damn good for the most part.
The only way I stop being on Beamdog's side in this is IF they apologize, which I'm sure they won't.
At a certain point, haven't your goals been accomplished?? The user scores on Metacritic have been tanked. It has 2 1/2 stars on GOG, which is horrible. You seem to have gotten what you wanted. Everyone who could possibly care about this game will now see those disingenuous reviews whenever they decide to read up on it. So why is the Gamergate crowd still on these forums, still continuing with this nonsense?? Do they actually have an objective, or do they simply relish the fight?? I suspect it's the later....
Why not? Interesting discussion is happening here, and truthfully, I don't want people to not buy BG:SoD. I'd prefer Beamdog apologize for using a beloved character to insult a group of fans, and call it a day. If they can at least *see* where they went wrong, giving them a pathway to future success, instead of doubling down and doubling down, then I'll buy the damn game just to support that, after all, I've heard it's, well, pretty damn good for the most part.
Any discussion of what one little line you found offensive is off topic for the purpose of this thread. Read the OP.
@jjstraka34 we want the game to be changed and become normal. Change all the patronizing dialogs like PoE did when they received complains. Leave all the characters as they are cause they are really interesting. BUT REWORK the text and make it normal, cause every single response in SoD makes me feel like a PC advocate.
Please try to use a term other than "normal" friend, it creates the idea that the character in question and her situation is abnormal.
@jjstraka34 we want the game to be changed and become normal. Change all the patronizing dialogs like PoE did when they received complains. Leave all the characters as they are cause they are really interesting. BUT REWORK the text and make it normal, cause every single response in SoD makes me feel like a PC advocate.
Then you are a person who sees SJW everywhere ad absurdum. This thread is about the concerted effort to artificially manipulate reviews and tank this game.
@jjstraka34 we want the game to be changed and become normal. Change all the patronizing dialogs like PoE did when they received complains. Leave all the characters as they are cause they are really interesting. BUT REWORK the text and make it normal, cause every single response in SoD makes me feel like a PC advocate.
Please try to use a term other than "normal" friend, it creates the idea that the character in question and her situation is abnormal.
Well that particular post is the most telling crystalization of what they actually think, so I think we should leave it for everyone to see. It spells everything out pretty well....
Either side?? If someone walks into my house and starts breaking furniture, and I ask them to stop, am I equally responsible for the argument that is going to ensue?? Because that's what's taking place on these forums.
Hohoho! Stay thy nonsense, traveler.
Take a moment to step off that high horse, we're all on even ground here. There is aggression from both ends, and there has been insults from both sides! It wasn't enough to ask them to stop breaking furniture, in your metaphor.
Playing the victim is NOT the way to go about this. Especially when you're not simply the victim. I'd argue that the only real victims in the matter are trans-gendered folk due to the backlash of the Mizhena issue.
The solid fact stands - if SoD was really good, people wouldn't buzz on and over some tranny issues and one line in Minsc's dialogue; as bad as they are. They'd be playing the game, not putting up pointless discussions. Chill all out, play the game since you have it, enjoy it. If it's any good, no ammount of bad customer reviews will have any impact. Why would one listen to random hate-dwelling punks on internet? Otoh, if it's half as bad as people claim it is, well, tough luck.
Either side?? If someone walks into my house and starts breaking furniture, and I ask them to stop, am I equally responsible for the argument that is going to ensue?? Because that's what's taking place on these forums.
Hohoho! Stay thy nonsense, traveler.
Take a moment to step off that high horse, we're all on even ground here. There is aggression from both ends, and there has been insults from both sides! It wasn't enough to ask them to stop breaking furniture, in your metaphor.
Playing the victim is NOT the way to go about this. Especially when you're not simply the victim. I'd argue that the only real victims in the matter are trans-gendered folk due to the backlash of the Mizhena issue.
No, we are not on even ground. No one on these forums wanted this conversation. Most of us would have never wanted to have this conversation in the first place. A bunch of people create brand new accounts and descend on forums that have been peaceful for the almost 2 years I've been a part of them, and start throwing Gamergate shit against the walls. I'm not a victim, nor will I act like one. If they continue to stay here, they are going to get back what they dish out in spades. Their bully tactics don't fly with me.
I tried understanding both sides in this controversy and weighting their arguments looking for sensible answers and all I've found is mindless BS. In all honestly I've come to hate both SJW and GG equally. Thank you guys and gals for tainting our childhood memories with your political views and cultural war that have nothing to do in an all-time fans favorite D&D game.
Well, people are fighting PC culture in any way they know, since it is infiltrating everything they hold holy. PC culture was invading people's lives for a very long time, so people are now fighting back. I wish BG was not caught in the middle of it, but there is the rationale you were asking for.
I agree - the way the GamerGate kids are aggressively promoting PC culture here - pushing to silence the developers, saying they are offended by Minsc's Easter egg line and that it should be removed - that needs to be resisted. Sorry, but their right not to be offended doesn't trump Beamdog's right to free speech.
Welcome to the fight brother. We can't let these GG people impose their PC values on our freedom.
Their arguments are so insignificant and disingenuous that I honestly hope most of the people making arguing for them aren't adults, though I suspect they sadly are....
At a certain point, haven't your goals been accomplished?? The user scores on Metacritic have been tanked. It has 2 1/2 stars on GOG, which is horrible. You seem to have gotten what you wanted. Everyone who could possibly care about this game will now see those disingenuous reviews whenever they decide to read up on it. So why is the Gamergate crowd still on these forums, still continuing with this nonsense?? Do they actually have an objective, or do they simply relish the fight?? I suspect it's the later....
Why not? Interesting discussion is happening here, and truthfully, I don't want people to not buy BG:SoD. I'd prefer Beamdog apologize for using a beloved character to insult a group of fans, and call it a day. If they can at least *see* where they went wrong, giving them a pathway to future success, instead of doubling down and doubling down, then I'll buy the damn game just to support that, after all, I've heard it's, well, pretty damn good for the most part.
Any discussion of what one little line you found offensive is off topic for the purpose of this thread. Read the OP.
Braski, if someone is asking why I'm here and what my purposes are for being on this forum, and I give them an honest reply, it isn't off-topic. Or, if it is, it's because the entire thread has been derailed so far off course that Dee should lock it up. Which do you prefer?
Well, people are fighting PC culture in any way they know, since it is infiltrating everything they hold holy. PC culture was invading people's lives for a very long time, so people are now fighting back. I wish BG was not caught in the middle of it, but there is the rationale you were asking for.
I agree - the way the GamerGate kids are aggressively promoting PC culture here - pushing to silence the developers, saying they are offended by Minsc's Easter egg line and that it should be removed - that needs to be resisted. Sorry, but their right not to be offended doesn't trump Beamdog's right to free speech.
Welcome to the fight brother. We can't let these GG people impose their PC values on our freedom.
I think Beamdog should keep the line if they wish, but make a statement saying that they understand why it could be considered an insult, and apologize. However, if they feel like the line is out of place, it is up to them, and ONLY them, to remove it.
Braski, if someone is asking why I'm here and what my purposes are for being on this forum, and I give them an honest reply, it isn't off-topic. Or, if it is, it's because the entire thread has been derailed so far off course that Dee should lock it up. Which do you prefer?
Braski, if someone is asking why I'm here and what my purposes are for being on this forum, and I give them an honest reply, it isn't off-topic. Or, if it is, it's because the entire thread has been derailed so far off course that Dee should lock it up. Which do you prefer?
Honestly, MY preference would be the latter.
Wholeheartedly agree. I think the forums would be better served with a giant megathread, and immediate deletion of anything that has to do with Mizrena or Minsc-line, SJW or GG.
I tried understanding both sides in this controversy and weighting their arguments looking for sensible answers and all I've found is mindless BS. In all honestly I've come to hate both SJW and GG equally. Thank you guys and gals for tainting our childhood memories with your political views and cultural war that have nothing to do in an all-time fans favorite D&D game.
We're "social justice warriors" because we think it's patently absurd to want to tank a game's reviews over one NPC and a throwaway jab that lasts a couple of seconds?? Your false equivalency is just as maddening as anything else....
Comments
1) Citation needed. I actually care about how Mizrena comes off to players that are actually trans. If you're assuming my care isn't genuine, despite that I've had discussions on this very forum with self-described transgender folks...what more can I say?
3) Yeah, it sadly is. It kind of became a war on August 28th, 2014, when just about every other video game news site under the sun happened to release articles proclaiming that gamers are dead, all about the same topic, on the same day. All told, from August 28th to the early part of September, roughly 20 articles were written, either on the same "opinion" topic, or referencing that topic, a vast majority of them on the 28th.
When you're facing that kind of direct, coordinated broadside salvo from the games journalists, you tell me how it isn't a war? And, again, tell me how GGers declared it as such? Shit, we were caught off guard by the "Gamers Are Dead" day. It got us a lot of new people, too, though.
As for not trying to talk, please look up 'Airplay'. It was a talk, with GamerGaters and the Society of Professional Journalists. It was a peaceful talk, with GamerGate representatives and SPJ neutrals both getting their thoughts out there. Well, it was peaceful until some anti-GGs hit it with an actual, RL bomb threat.
Or, when GamerGaters got together in Washington DC at a local pub to have a friendly gathering and a few beers. But, wait, that got a bomb threat called in on it as well. It's almost like people who don't like GamerGate refuse to let us gather, let us speak.
Oh, and as for not trying to help, please look up how we supported an all-woman game jam for The Fine Young Capitalists after some SJWs doxxed and threatened them. Yeah, that's right! We helped a woman make a game! It's called 'Afterlife Empire', it's on Steam.
So, Mirandel, if you're going to slander the ever living shit out of GamerGate, at least educate yourself on who we are and what we do, without assuming we're mindless harassers who get off on being the internet boogieman. I'd really, REALLY appreciate it.
SJWs are people such as Lifschitz, and those who proudly proclaim things such as "gamers are over", "gamers don't have to be your audience", games should not be fun, and "bring back bullying" on games journalism articles and social media, and then mock the idea that GamerGate is about ethics in games journalism.
On the other hand, if people are leaving reviews without having tried the game, then they absolutely should not be doing that.
Carry on.
Take a moment to step off that high horse, we're all on even ground here. There is aggression from both ends, and there has been insults from both sides! It wasn't enough to ask them to stop breaking furniture, in your metaphor.
Playing the victim is NOT the way to go about this. Especially when you're not simply the victim. I'd argue that the only real victims in the matter are trans-gendered folk due to the backlash of the Mizhena issue.
Chill all out, play the game since you have it, enjoy it. If it's any good, no ammount of bad customer reviews will have any impact. Why would one listen to random hate-dwelling punks on internet?
Otoh, if it's half as bad as people claim it is, well, tough luck.